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Should it be legal for other people to assault you if they disagree with you? This poll is closed. |
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| No |
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Svartvit posted:WANTED: Batman is the 1%.
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Jan 22, 2017 14:15
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What we need is Superman in his Red Son incarnation.
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Jan 22, 2017 14:18
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forkboy84 posted:Incidentally, is saying that being a Neo-Nazi is just a difference of opinion the most liberal thing ever? Either that or donating money to your opponents so they can go back to oppressing people. Definitely the latter, with the former coming close second. Treating politics like a sportsmanlike game is some crass poo poo when people's lives hang in the balance. The whole "they go low, we go high" thing has to die and the sooner it does the better.
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Jan 22, 2017 15:49
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Mercrom posted:Yes, if only we had a means to use violence to deter and enforce a certain set of rules in society and groups of professionals who has worked for hundreds of years learning this strategy. Cops are just fascists with badges. Hope this helps.
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Jan 22, 2017 17:20
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The Oldest Man posted:This. Punch a Nazi and go to jail for punching a Nazi if that's the price civil society requires of us in order to punch Nazis. It's also your duty as a good citizen to take all necessary steps to avoid punishment for punching said nazi, as by being imprisoned you only serve to prop up a for-profit prison system. Plus, uh, the prisons are kind of full of nazis.
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Jan 22, 2017 17:34
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:cool, that's a good summary of it to start on All you need is one rear end in a top hat true believer and a bunch of other gullible assholes good at following orders.
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Jan 22, 2017 19:38
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:the problem i have here is that if one true believer is all it takes to make an idea too dangerous to be allowed into the public, questions get raised about an assload of ideas besides basic white supremacy There are vanishingly few religions that openly advocate genocide these days. I mean I'm sure there's a couple and a pedantically literalist reading of any major religious text could probably turn up a few calls for ethnic cleansing, but come the gently caress on. If somebody's out there being politely indulged by the mainstream media while they try and put a respectful gloss on the wholesale murder of blacks, jews, gays and the like while appropriating the symbols of one of the most brutally efficient genocidal regimes in history I reckon a punch to the face is the bare minimum of what they're owed.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:04
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i think this might be more productive if we do a thought exercise: what would a modern-day organized uprising of neo-nazis in the united states look like, how would that work/get anywhere Um, I think their candidate was just inaugurated. Less glibly, American nazis would probably commit their pogroms by proxy through giving blanket support to agents of state power that discriminate against and violently attack minority groups with relative impunity as a matter of course.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:27
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:like is this the kind of thing that can be done by a few committed nazis working in secret who found out about the nazi thing from a joseph spencer (wait is his first name joseph) article, or would it take a hundred thousand nazis with a secret plan to first install and then control a leader they can count on to do their bidding Actually I was mostly referring to the system of white supremacy that already exists, in which police unaccountably and disproportionately murder and imprison black people and have a great deal of support from the general populace in doing so. So, you know, since the policy of state terror and repression is already in place all the nazis have to do is work to intensify it by participating in grass roots right wing politics. And doing media interviews to give it a presentable face. A presentable face which needs punching.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:36
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AARO posted:What other thoughts justify violence against the thought criminal? Hey, people can think what they like. When they decide to get up on a stage and get everyone doing roman salutes while spouting white nationalist rhetoric, however, that steps beyond thought or even speech and becomes political action. Politics is power, and whether abstracted or not in the end political power translates into violence.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:44
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AARO posted:Actually botany said just the thoughts themselves justify violence against the thinker. I'd like to know what other thoughts people have I can inflict violence on them for. Quit the tedious concern trolling and try sitting at the grownups' table for a bit. I might let you have some of my beer if you behave.
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Jan 22, 2017 20:47
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The US government killed Osama Bin Laden for things he said. I never saw him shoot anyone, did you? There is protected speech and there is conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity, which is literally what Spencer and his laughable clique of anime nazis are doing their best to graduate to. They talk endlessly about the black problem, the jewish problem and the boogeyman threat of white genocide. In their minds and in their rhetoric they're combatants in a war, in which we are the declared enemy whether we choose to be or not. He's lucky he's such a ridiculous, ineffectual clown otherwise he'd be lying in the gutter trying to spoon bits of kidney back into his stab wounds.
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Jan 22, 2017 22:28
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AARO posted:Brandenburg said "government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless that speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action"" The government breaks its own laws all the drat time, their standards are not an adequate metric of what a good citizen should or shouldn't do.
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Jan 22, 2017 22:34
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:how's the racist tree thing work, is that like when you cut down the tree, dig up the stump, burn all the seeds, dig out a twelve-foot pit where the stump once stood and dump all the dirt into a blast furnace, then salt an ever-widening ring of soil around where the tree once stood in a kind of paranoid weekly ceremony until the county tells you to stop before you destroy every piece of property in the area because they're nazi sympathizers who don't understand I'd be cool with something like that. It's obviously something that needs doing. Maybe we can inter the ashes in some kind of yucca mountain site type thing so dumb basement dwelling nerds with deep-seated sexual issues don't dig up and rediscover it.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:36
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Christ alive.
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Jan 22, 2017 23:44
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Calibanibal posted:I will punch AARO I'll hold him you hit him. 
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Jan 22, 2017 23:52
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Trabisnikof posted:What about people who claim some Americans are "subhuman"? Are those people Nazis? Wait, wait, you're saying only some Amerikkkans are subhuman?
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Jan 23, 2017 04:25
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Letting the state stick its nose in and tell you what political expression is acceptable is a bad idea because they'll apply that logic as broadly as they possibly can to serve their own interests. Physical and ideological opposition to fascism is the duty of citizens, not state power.
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Jan 25, 2017 12:43
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Streak posted:heres a hot take drat, hope you were wearing oven mitts for that scorcher. e: Here's a counter-point -- if you defend the rights of nazis to organise and proselytize you're a nazi collaborator.
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Jan 25, 2017 12:56
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Two hours for a coup sounds a bit tight, seems more like a long term commitment that you work on on your days off.
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Jan 25, 2017 13:58
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The red army weren't exactly great guys, they did kind of rape and pillage and rape and loot and rape quite a lot of Germany and Poland in the process of liberating them from fascism, so uh, yeah. That's a whole nother kettle of fish though, cos the relevant thing here is they killed nazis and killing nazis is good, rape is not. Generally people who openly advocate the murder and/or expulsion of you, your family and your entire ethnic group should be physically opposed before a large enough crowd of followers clusters around them to put their plans into action. Because by the time that happens and their enablers finally take them seriously as a threat you're already hosed, the pogrom has started.
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Jan 25, 2017 15:03
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Sounds good to me.
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Jan 25, 2017 15:15
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When have governments ever acted in the best interests of their constituents?
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Jan 25, 2017 15:20
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:yeah, i still feel like Those Dirty Gubbamint Men aren't out to get me, i'm optimistic like that and don't wear a tinfoil hat or anything Suggesting that American law enforcement disproportionately targets minorities with lethal force isn't exactly controversial and sure as poo poo isn't Alex Jones levels of conspiracist paranoia either. Your "optimism" might be the product of some kind of privilege others aren't lucky enough to enjoy.
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Jan 25, 2017 15:31
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:i recognize that there are problems with the police force, and i also recognize that said problems aren't fatal to the entire united states government to the point that i need to distrust the government's authority to own and command a military Yeah, I can't think of any situations made worse by American military power. No sir.
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Jan 25, 2017 15:36
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:criticizing actions that the government has used its military to take is one thing; questioning whether that government should be allowed to have a military is quite another Death to America 110%. Pittsburgh Lambic posted:key word in that second statement there is maybe, i can recognize a problem without turning into an activist about it So you either don't care enough about police violence, despite your abstract recognition of it, to do anything about it or you don't believe any form of activism gets results. Either way, your abstract opinion about police violence doesn't actually help anyone or hold any moral weight without some form of material intervention on your part. Pittsburgh Lambic posted:as for your first statement, once again, i don't see the fascist uprising that people keep trying to convince me is currently happening right now The whole point of physically and ideologically opposing fascism is to prevent the uprising from happening, because as has already been stated by the time the fascists have mobilised into a critical mass worthy of your myopic attentions it will already be too late to stop it. Not that you would, considering your seeming ambivalence towards -- and insulation from -- other forms of violence visited upon minority groups that you already know about.
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Jan 25, 2017 15:48
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Pittsburgh Lambic posted:first: ideas such as racial purity and racial supremacy are not as generally palatable as they once were; due to changes in our educational system and the continuing influence of mass media on american culture i believe it would be very difficult for an idea such as white supremacy to find a sufficient number of sufficiently violently inclined believers. i'm talking about believers in white supremacy who are willing to go out and/or kill people on account of that belief, not believers willing to post on stormfront all day A dude just won an election on the promise to ban muslims from the country and build a militarised border wall, making a neighbour country pay for it. The racial pseudoscience that underpinned nazi ideology may have been pushed to the fringes, but the xenophobia fascism panders to is alive and well. Pittsburgh Lambic posted:second: fascism is not a young and untested system anymore. just like communism, fascism became a lot less attractive after it was given a chance to fail horribly and kill a shitload of people. even just boiling down the fascism to its base components -- getting everybody mobilized and working not for themselves, but for the idea of America Itself -- sounds, in my opinion, a lot more gross and lovely than it once did. Capitalism continues to kill shitloads of people, but however bloodsoaked and discredited it is it lumbers on like a zombie. The left is resurgent, with the word socialism almost completely detoxified in the American lexicon. Ideologies don't die, or if they do they certainly don't die gracefully. Pittsburgh Lambic posted:third: communication has changed. broadcast media is a different creature than it once was, and in particular, it has not tended to be an exclusively state-run institution in the united states. the result of this is that propaganda is a hell of a lot less effective than it once was, and can't be as effectively used over a period of many years to gradually indoctrinate a young male population into thinking that it's perfectly okay and good to starve millions of russian soldiers to death in a camp and all that other poo poo. The gently caress? Propaganda is probably more effective now than it ever was. People can, through the miracles of news aggregation and social media, find news that confirms and coddles their worldview far more easily than ever before and adept propagandists are exploiting this factor as we speak to indoctrinate masses of low-information voters and activists. It's why people think Birmingham in the UK is a no-go zone living under sharia law or that there's a pizza restaurant that is actually a democrat-run child brothel. Pittsburgh Lambic posted:all of that being said, i do have lingering, nagging doubts -- owing to things such as the fact that ethnic cleansing wasn't really a new idea even when nazi germany was doing it, and could be one of those things that keeps cropping up again and again in history to embarrass the poo poo out of us as a species. i just hope that people don't get too hung up on defending against the threat of nazis and fascism to ignore another tried-and-proven genocidal ideology sneaking up on them, such as manifest destiny Uh, what form would you expect American fascism to take, exactly? It absolutely would come in the borrowed clothing of America's pre-existing (genocidal) national identity, that's how ultranationalism works. Spencer and his ilk like their nazi iconography, but they could just as easily be good ol' boy Klansmen or neoconfederates or molon labe type right wing militia fuckwits, they're still fascists and still need fought whatever uniform and handshake their little club has.
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Jan 25, 2017 17:33
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Kubrick posted:I don't think you are being overbroad at all. I think a vast majority Trump supporters and political allies hold fascist or fascist-adjacent ideas. They certainly hold ideas like authoritarianism and xenophobia. Many would consider that grounds enough for the label of "fascist". I think they are scum, and am actively resisting them, but I still don't think it's ok for me to hurt them based on their thoughtcrimes. How do you think this mindset of "actively resisting" fascism without being prepared to do so physically held up in Italy and Germany in the 1930s? Or in Franco's Spain up to the early 70s? Or in Pinochet's Argentina? Or in apartheid South Africa?
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Jan 26, 2017 11:50
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Kubrick posted:This is another thing, hitting him isn't saving anyone's life. He's just going to go home and touch himself as the google alerts he set for his own name start popping up. He's more famous then ever now. Drive-by punching this guy is like like the safety pin of antifascist efforts. It's not setting back fascism one inch; it's just something quick and easy someone can do to feel righteous. A small part of me wishes you guys would walk your talk and just take him out. It would still be wrong, but maybe you would be accomplishing something. He may be more famous than ever now, but he's famous for being the punched face that launched a thousand liberal defences of openly-proselytized nazism far more than he's famous for his own message of hate. Among his supporters, whose strength depends on projection of power and intimidation I doubt him getting whacked in the face has been a galvanising factor.
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Jan 26, 2017 12:36
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Venomous posted:meanwhile, as this thread was going around in circles, https://twitter.com/babycommie666/status/824470856004833280 Sadly that actually turns out to be a photo of the first punch, the one preceding the more famous mid-interview punch. edit: https://twitter.com/elenacresci/status/824560454177619968
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Jan 26, 2017 13:34
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El Generico posted:Someone unironically holding up a "White Lives Matter" sign. Jesus Christ. It might be a "White Lives Matter Too Much" sign, there was one visible during his interview.
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Jan 26, 2017 13:41
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The Kingfish posted:I'll be concerned when they punch someone who isn't a literal Nazi. I know, right, imagine if the right used dangerous rhetoric and the violent fallout that could ensue. Lucky they get a punch in the face for their troubles, really.
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Jan 26, 2017 15:39
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The Kingfish posted:What's your point? My point is that there's other rhetoric doing the rounds that's pretty much mainstream now in the new Trump reich and if you think it's dangerous to call fascists fascists or advocate physical resistance to fascism, it should also follow that you think that right wing rhetoric against minorities, muslims, women, feminism, LGBT people, blacks, hispanics and whoever else is even more dangerous, no?
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Jan 26, 2017 15:51
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Never mind punching, shoving and shouting at nazis when they interfere with your art installation has now been conclusively proven to be an arrestable offence. Racists needn't worry, the state will always have their back.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:36
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Nazis worship state power, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the massive pussies relying on the police to do their dirty work for them. Also I guess it was /pol/ or some similar squirming burrow of human effluent that was coordinating the interference.
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Jan 26, 2017 19:48
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Keeshhound posted:Really, if anyone here (regardless of their position on the morality of the subject) honestly thinks the public was going to respond positively to a wave of Nazi punching, they need to google "Knockout game." It's not about media optics, it's about answering violence and intimidation in kind and deflating the fascists by driving them back underground where they belong.
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Jan 26, 2017 21:14
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tsa posted:The point is that it's going to massively backfire and will accomplish the exact opposite of what you want. Shockingly enough optics matter and they are essential to any winning campaign or cause. On the other hand we can go through this extensive list of the times in history when your way worked: Well, poo poo, how about the battle of Cable Street? Anti-fascists turned out to stop the British Union of Fascists from marching, employing physical force, and utterly emasculated them. This was an organisation that had some of Britain's most popular national newspapers on-side, and yet the battle of Cable Street was a decisive turning point that prevented them from gaining the legitimacy and political power they needed. edit: or, hey, what about the Arditi Del Popolo, an anti-fascist militia in Italy that, with even most of the radical left's newspapers dead against them, managed to muster enough support for their 350 man force in Parma to repel a fascist offensive of 20,000. edit the second: tsa posted:Whether you like it or not freedom of speech still exists so it's not too surprising the application of the law reflects that. If you're standing next to a jewish man on a live video feed (which gives you a national, hell, international platform) and you decide pointedly to blurt out "Hitler did nothing wrong" that's hatespeech not free speech. TomViolence fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jan 26, 2017 |
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Jan 26, 2017 21:36
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tsa posted:Let them throw the first punch, I mean how much more loving basic can you get in resistance 101. I don't know what resistance movements you studied last time you picked up a history book and did some analysis but any strategy built around getting punched in the face is a bad strategy.
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Jan 26, 2017 21:59
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Lads, politics is not a gentlemanly game. The right, be they conservatives or outright nazis, support policies that needlessly kill tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people through poverty, neglect, foreign wars, lack of access to healthcare, abortion or contraception, police violence, the torture prisons they love to run both domestically and abroad and capital punishment, among other things. Just because these atrocities are enacted through a state proxy does not make them moral or legitimate and physical and ideological opposition to those promoting them can be justified as defending yourself, your class and vulnerable minorities from the onslaught of the state, the fascists and the enablers of both. The groups they target live in fear day to day, whether it's fear of physical violence in the form of beatings and harassment or systemic violence such as the financial ruin wrought by an economy rigged against them. It is only fair and right that the bastards responsible for this climate of terror be made to feel the same fear.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:04
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Pseudo-God posted:So where do you draw the line then? Why not escalate them if making your opponents feel fear is good? First start with punching them in the street, then you can set fire to their homes and property, then you can threaten their kids and family. Hell, why not bomb and assassinate them too? It is exactly the ideology that terrorists use, remember, they truly believe they are doing the right thing for a righteous cause for an ultimately better world. The entire point of anti-fascism is to de-escalate things before they get worse, it's not an extirpative war, it's about creating a chilling effect. Extreme measures like you're describing don't actually need to be taken because fascists, being nothing more than bullies, are quite gutless and tend to back down when actually confronted. That is, unless they've reached the sort of critical mass that leads to another kristallnacht and terrorized the populace into acquiescence, which is, to reiterate, what anti-fascism is all about avoiding.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:35
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