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Pharohman777 posted:It is. It assumes that the default thing men do is rape, and that only via some sort of seminar can that issue be fixed.
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Jan 24, 2017 01:54
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Pharohman777 posted:It is. It assumes that the default thing men do is rape, and that only via some sort of seminar can that issue be fixed. Nah, it's just proactively working against generations of ingrained toxic attitudes about masculinity, sexuality, and consent. I know I'm not a rapist. It doesn't bother me when I hear that men misunderstanding consent is a serious issue. Don't interpret broad social observations as a personal attack. Also "men will rape, boys will be boys" is very much a patriarchal attitude and used to justify the whole "if she walked into that dark alley wearing that she had it coming" fallacy. Because of course if a man sees a hot piece of tail he'll rape it, right? You see how that works?
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Jan 24, 2017 01:55
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Do you think that in both society and relationships women should have the same rights as men, and be treated as equals under the law? Congrats, you're a feminist. If you seriously don't believe that, congrats, you're an rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:00
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Basically the statistics of society mean you have to believe one of two things: either women are an oppressed group, or women are actually inferior. https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/reports/2014/03/07/85457/fact-sheet-the-womens-leadership-gap/ --------------------------------- They are only 14.6 percent of executive officers, 8.1 percent of top earners, and 4.6 percent of Fortune 500 CEOs. They hold just 16.9 percent of Fortune 500 board seats. In the financial services industry, they make up 54.2 percent of the labor force, but are only 12.4 percent of executive officers, and 18.3 percent of board directors. None are CEOs. They account for 78.4 percent of the labor force in health care and social assistance but only 14.6 percent of executive officers and 12.4 percent of board directors. None, again, are CEOs. In the legal field, they are 45.4 percent of associates—but only 25 percent of nonequity partners and 15 percent of equity partners. In medicine, they comprise 34.3 percent of all physicians and surgeons but only 15.9 percent of medical school deans. In information technology, they hold only 9 percent of management positions and account for only 14 percent of senior management positions at Silicon Valley startups. Women accounted for just 16 percent of all the directors, executive producers, producers, writers, cinematographers, and editors who worked on the top-grossing 250 domestic films of 2013, and were just 28 percent of all offscreen talent on broadcast television programs during the 2012-13 primetime season. Women today hold only 18.5 percent of congressional seats, and they are just 20 percent of U.S. senators. They hold only 24.2 percent of state legislature seats. They are only 10 percent of governors. Only 12 percent of the mayors of the 100 largest American cities are women. On average, women are outnumbered 2-to-1 by men as state-level cabinet appointees. --------------------------------- You can throw in the some more statistics that are sure laugh riots by pointing out they are also under represented in the religious power structures, in presidentship and in military leadership, and various aspects of sports. Stuff that is so strongly assumed to be true true it comes off as funny to even mention. Like you can talk about one solution or another being the best solution, disagree with some writer on on how fix this. But really the only possible options are that society does something to suppress women, or that women are actually given a fair shot but actually are actually deficient in literally everything from being actors to running hospitals to being school superintendents.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:03
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stone cold posted:
Very moving: its easy to forget now that thete are more female graduates than male ones that women in western society were once denied equal educational opportunities.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:04
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:Very moving: its easy to forget now that thete are more female graduates than male ones that women in western society were once denied equal educational opportunities. ........so you haven't read Virginia Woolf?
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Jan 24, 2017 02:19
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like if your takeaway from that book is "golly, it's sure swell that dames today are getting an education," then you either didn't read it or comically missed the point
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Jan 24, 2017 02:21
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also, kind of surprised the lack of commentary on how very much that was a white privileged woman experience
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Jan 24, 2017 02:22
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no amount of discussion will dissuade people like wateroverfire in this thread from being irredeemable pieces of poo poo. but hey, at least they're not throwing ethnic slurs around, right!
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Jan 24, 2017 02:33
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If you reduce the definition of feminism a certain way, anybody who wants to treat people equally is a feminist. If you reduce the definition a different way, a person who only wants people treated equally is a misogynist.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:34
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Pharohman777 posted:Rape is already culturally reprehensable and taboo. Great! Unfortunately a lot of people don't know what rape is. Sarah Edwards of the University of North Dakota posted:Specifically, when survey items describe behaviors (i.e.,‘‘Have you ever coerced somebody to intercourse by holding them down?’’) instead of simply label them (i.e., ‘‘Have you ever raped somebody?’’), more men will admit to sexually coercive behaviors in the past and more women will self-report past victimization. quote:http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/01/lots-of-men-dont-think-rape-is-rape.html Then of course we have ideas in our culture that protect rapists such as this bizarrely prevalent belief that women frequently lie about being raped, which leads to poor treatment of victims by law enforcement. quote:http://www.elle.com/life-love/a41973/taylor-hirth-gang-rape-independence-missouri/ This is from an article about a woman whose home was broken into while she was asleep. She was beaten and gang raped in front of her daughter. The cops still thought she was lying and were far more interested in whether or not she used Tinder or had condoms in her house than in checking surveillance footage. They even lied about her not having any injuries although they were well documented by the SANE nurse.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:35
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Domus posted:Do you think that in both society and relationships women should have the same rights as men, and be treated as equals under the law? Congrats, you're a feminist. If you seriously don't believe that, congrats, you're an rear end in a top hat. I would probably disagree with that honestly, it's quite an academic discipline and a lot of work and thought goes into it. Intent and identity doesn't really guarantee a lot.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:36
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Pharohman777 posted:It is. It assumes that the default thing men do is rape, and that only via some sort of seminar can that issue be fixed. No it actually assumes that we live in a society where instead of teaching men to respect boundaries and stop when a woman says no we scold women for how they dress or for going someplace on their own Which we do Namaste
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Jan 24, 2017 02:48
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stone cold posted:like if your takeaway from that book is "golly, it's sure swell that dames today are getting an education," then you either didn't read it or comically missed the point Stop arguing with IWC
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Jan 24, 2017 02:51
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[quote=" Owlofcreamcheese"] Basically the statistics of society mean you have to believe one of two things: either women are an oppressed group, or women are actually inferior. "[/quote] Oh yeah? Those are the only possible conclusions to draw from the evidence of this gap? They fall short of what their representation is /supposed to be/, which, depending on the ferocity of the feminist, is liable to be 50%, 50.8% or the current percentage of men in all of those respective roles. This quota culture is one of the underlying grievances of these counter-feminists or feminist rebukers, if you'll allow it. Our hyperpolarized culture dumbs down every discussion by it's injection of pro's and anti's, rear end in a top hat and Not An rear end in a top hat. I mean seriously, what the hell is this? In the financial services industry, they make up 54.2 percent of the labor force, but are only 12.4 percent of executive officers, and 18.3 percent of board directors. None are CEOs." Wellp, we better start boycotting companies and start issuing quota targeting mailers to shareholders until they start electing the Correct Ratio of Capable Female CEOs, a thing that is discernible nowhere in nature. This is as insulting as belief in inherent inferiority. It suggests women are regressive knuckle draggers who aren't actively pursuing the highest perches in the land are holding women back from True Equality which can only be measured by artificially weighing every metrics of what a successful woman is until they all read 50/50, instead of deemphasizing their importance. Too many feminists can't conceive of society as anything other than a battleground; a never ending match of capture the flag. Women not only can have it all, but they must take it all. and woe betide you if you ever acknowledge that there are differences that are inherent, or that there may be a gradual, slow and maybe intermittent progress toward quotas and in the meantime you can't do anything about them without being unfair to those businesses or legislatures or voters (who must hate women because why else would they vote for men?), because feminism has no mechanism for discussing that and would come apart at the seams. Also it isn't for you people to say who isn't a True ScotsWoman and who isn't. Mary Wollstonecraft is dead and didn't specify in her will who speaks for her and who doesn't. It is completely understandable that people will distance themselves from the loathsome thought police like Mansplaining lady, like Tiny Brontosaurus and Stone Cold (a person who just demonstrated he can't even conceive of how someone would identify with the fight for gender equality and simultaneously work against it) or that guy above who believes Innocent Until Proven Guilty' wrt to Trump's accusations on this very forum is too burdensome for feminist progressive dechecklisting, like the wonderful specimens that wrote this https://theoutline.com/post/799/tim-allen-s-career-is-a-metaphor-for-america https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/22/opinion/super-mario-runs-not-so-super-gender-politics.html?_r=0 That even conceived of this for a second http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/finally-an-app-that-splits-the-bill-so-that-white-men-pay-more_us_56d06dfae4b0871f60eb1181 Seriously. Remember in the 90's when women insisted on paying their way so they weren't the objects of what they considered unwelcome chivalry? That reasonable belief has been replaced by communist style politburo 5-Year-Plan thinking. And then there's all the women's privilege that hasn't even been remarked on by a single feminist writer. Look at this person. She won custody of her children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_vVlk_YD6E Until feminists start clarifying themselves more, and vocally distancing themselves more from this garbage, they have no right to bitch when people don't pick up the required lit. The caricature has been outdone by the genuine article. Jaded Samurai fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 02:53
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Knight Boat posted:Then of course we have ideas in our culture that protect rapists such as this bizarrely prevalent belief that women frequently lie about being raped, which leads to poor treatment of victims by law enforcement. It's always paired with the idea that a women just needs to say the word rape and a man's life is ruined forever. Which is so demonstrably not actually the way it actually works. To the point we currently have a president that half a dozen women have accused of sexual assaults of various sorts and he also accused himself of sexual assault on tape and it had no effect on his career.
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Jan 24, 2017 02:57
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Jaded Samurai posted:Oh yeah? Those are the only possible conclusions to draw from the evidence of this gap? They fall short of what their representation is /supposed to be/, which, depending on the ferocity of the feminist, is liable to be 50%, 50.8% or the current percentage of men in all of those respective roles. This quota culture is one of the underlying grievances of these counter-feminists or feminist rebukers, if you'll allow it. Our hyperpolarized culture dumbs down every discussion by it's injection of pro's and anti's, rear end in a top hat and Not An rear end in a top hat. that's a whole lot of words to go: "women, they're the real misogynists  "also: i'm a lady
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Jan 24, 2017 03:00
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Jaded Samurai posted:woe betide you if you ever acknowledge that there are differences that are inherent Can you list some of the differences that are inherent and why they should mean that women should be under represented in everything from religion to movie making to politics to business to the military to hospital and school administration?
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Jan 24, 2017 03:00
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Jaded Samurai posted:Oh yeah? Those are the only possible conclusions to draw from the evidence of this gap? They fall short of what their representation is /supposed to be/, which, depending on the ferocity of the feminist, is liable to be 50%, 50.8% or the current percentage of men in all of those respective roles. This quota culture is one of the underlying grievances of these counter-feminists or feminist rebukers, if you'll allow it. Our hyperpolarized culture dumbs down every discussion by it's injection of pro's and anti's, rear end in a top hat and Not An rear end in a top hat. You're being real incoherent here. What is your alternative hypothesis?
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Jan 24, 2017 03:01
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Jaded Samurai posted:Oh yeah? Those are the only possible conclusions to draw from the evidence of this gap? They fall short of what their representation is /supposed to be/, which, depending on the ferocity of the feminist, is liable to be 50%, 50.8% or the current percentage of men in all of those respective roles. This quota culture is one of the underlying grievances of these counter-feminists or feminist rebukers, if you'll allow it. Our hyperpolarized culture dumbs down every discussion by it's injection of pro's and anti's, rear end in a top hat and Not An rear end in a top hat.  quota culture
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Jan 24, 2017 03:03
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Akumu posted:You're being real incoherent here. What is your alternative hypothesis? He is saying that women are equal if you don't focus on things like "actual metrics of how equal they are"
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Jan 24, 2017 03:04
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also, women getting custody in divorces is a side effect of the patriarchy and has been remarked on by feminists, hth
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Jan 24, 2017 03:07
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Knight Boat posted:Great! Unfortunately a lot of people don't know what rape is. Yes, part of preventing rape is to teach everyone what rape is and that it is wrong, obviously. Defining something as taboo is not effective unless the act itself is defined, and this plugs into the larger issue about so much of the discussion of sexuality in our culture is so choked with euphemisms and polite evasion that a frank and clear discussion of consent is nigh impossible. So a comprehensive platform of better sexual education for everyone, with a wide push for social acceptance of discourse about intercourse would clear away the gray areas about consent that exists in people's minds. This would eventually leave a small number of highly deliberate rapists that knowingly and maliciously ply their trade, obviously, but they were going to rape regardless so resources were going to be spend on them anyhow. Bonus, everyone is better able to take charge of their sexuality and ends up happier! Its not as pithy as 'teach rapists not to rape' but its sure removes a lot of footing that the anti-feminist movement needs to fight back against actual reforms that may benefit society.
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Jan 24, 2017 03:17
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504 posted:Feminism has been completely hijacked by attention seeking SJW's that scream about completely meaningless nothings and then get OUTRAGED when the general population does not give a poo poo. Ten minutes later the topic is dropped and never mentioned again as the next OUTRAGE has happened. Nah.
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Jan 24, 2017 03:22
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LeJackal posted:Yes, part of preventing rape is to teach everyone what rape is and that it is wrong, obviously. Defining something as taboo is not effective unless the act itself is defined, and this plugs into the larger issue about so much of the discussion of sexuality in our culture is so choked with euphemisms and polite evasion that a frank and clear discussion of consent is nigh impossible. So a comprehensive platform of better sexual education for everyone, with a wide push for social acceptance of discourse about intercourse would clear away the gray areas about consent that exists in people's minds. This would eventually leave a small number of highly deliberate rapists that knowingly and maliciously ply their trade, obviously, but they were going to rape regardless so resources were going to be spend on them anyhow. So is that what you told the judge last time you were brought up on charges or what?
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Jan 24, 2017 03:29
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fishmech posted:So is that what you told the judge last time you were brought up on charges or what? 
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Jan 24, 2017 03:31
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The insane people who call themselves feminists and believe that literally every single man is an insane turbo rapist who cackles with glee at the pain and suffering of all women are an insignificant minority of the feminist movement. If you go to any reddit forum dedicated to MRAs or whining about SJW I'll bet you 100000 bucks that like 90% of the poo poo they whine about are people trolling on Tumblr. Are there super lovely people who think men can't be raped or other poo poo like that? Yeah, but pretending like they represent all of feminism is loving absurd.
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Jan 24, 2017 03:32
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Jaded Samurai posted:Oh yeah? Those are the only possible conclusions to draw from the evidence of this gap? They fall short of what their representation is /supposed to be/, which, depending on the ferocity of the feminist, is liable to be 50%, 50.8% or the current percentage of men in all of those respective roles. This quota culture is one of the underlying grievances of these counter-feminists or feminist rebukers, if you'll allow it. Our hyperpolarized culture dumbs down every discussion by it's injection of pro's and anti's, rear end in a top hat and Not An rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 24, 2017 03:42
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Cease to Hope posted:This has been the caricature of feminism for longer than the word "feminism" has existed. Well no, I support womens right to vote, have equal pay, freedoms of opinion and medical access. What I don't support is the OUTRAGE that there were not enough women in the pretend evil galactic empire in Starwars, or the OUTRAGE that a little girl went dressed as lady Vader to a costume party (they would not accept the fact that the girl had chosen that costume instead of Darth Vader or even that the female character exists) Of course none of that actually matters because by the following week it was forgotten. Why actual feminists seem to think they have to support every goofy cause invented by some idiot to actually attract attention to themselves is beyond me.
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Jan 24, 2017 03:56
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Yeah. Having your serious cause hijacked by screaming idiots is hardly new to feminism.
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Jan 24, 2017 03:58
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504 posted:Yeah. Provide an actual example of this in the last year that wasn't clearly just idiots on the internet
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Jan 24, 2017 04:01
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I guarantee 100% the people complaining about feminists writing articles about representation in media etc would find something new to complain about if feminists stopped doing that They'd complain about anti-rape activism, for one
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Jan 24, 2017 04:03
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504 posted:Well no, I support womens right to vote, have equal pay, freedoms of opinion and medical access. Once again, this is a caricature. Congratulations for your mighty victory over the woman of straw.
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Jan 24, 2017 04:03
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OwlFancier posted:Once again, this is a caricature. Congratulations for your mighty victory over the woman of straw. Imagine I just posted the entirety of this
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Jan 24, 2017 04:06
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504 posted:Well no, I support womens right to vote, have equal pay, freedoms of opinion and medical access. You are scolding feminists for "goofy causes" but your problem with feminism is that some rando nobody somewhere didn't like some totally unimportant star trek thing?
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Jan 24, 2017 04:09
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Domus posted:Do you think that in both society and relationships women should have the same rights as men, and be treated as equals under the law? Congrats, you're a feminist. This part is not that controversial. The more controversial idea, which is one that many but not all feminists have, is that it is not good enough that we treat them as equals under the law. In order for women to actually achieve parity with men in society, the law must favor them in order to counteract the in-practice prejudice that many women face.
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Jan 24, 2017 04:21
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504 posted:Well no, I support womens right to vote, have equal pay, freedoms of opinion and medical access. So that's it? You're upset about nerd stuff? News flash. Nerds are always outraged. Feminist nerds are no different. You seem pretty outraged yourself. Hell, anti-feminist nerds exist in a perpetual state of outrage. Last month they couldn't stop weeping bitter tears over the British girl from Overwatch having a girlfriend. Knight Boat fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 04:29
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silence_kit posted:This part is not that controversial. The more controversial idea, which is one that many but not all feminists have, is that it is not good enough that we treat them as equals under the law. In order for women to actually achieve parity with men in society, the law must favor them in order to counteract the in-practice prejudice that many women face. Oh, I understand. I don't think many sensible feminists think the law must favor women. They're looking for acknowledgement and action by the of rest society, in an attempt to balance the scales. I generally support such things, if for no other reason than they benefit me. But can't we call that base part feminism, and then branch out to more detailed descriptions when we criticize? People seem to have no problems labeling down to the nth degree with religion, for example. You might wear a cross to say you're christian, but that doesn't mean you should be lumped in with Mormons just because they're christian too. Domus fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jan 24, 2017 |
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Jan 24, 2017 04:48
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Domus posted:But can't we call that base part feminism, and then branch out to more detailed descriptions when we criticize? People seem to have no problems labeling down to the nth degree with religion, for example. You might wear a cross to say you're christian, but that doesn't mean you should be lumped in with Mormons just because they're christian too. Of course it is feminism. Domus posted:I don't think many sensible feminists think the law must favor women. It's a very popular idea on this message board.
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Jan 24, 2017 05:08
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silence_kit posted:This part is not that controversial. The more controversial idea, which is one that many but not all feminists have, is that it is not good enough that we treat them as equals under the law. In order for women to actually achieve parity with men in society, the law must favor them in order to counteract the in-practice prejudice that many women face. You and the quota guy always have the same idea, that we would have laws that would favor the less qualified women over the clearly more qualified men. Presumably on the basis of the idea that men are just more or less universally more qualified so if you aren't picking them you are inherently going down a notch. Have you considered that maybe it's the less qualified men being chosen for positions over more qualified women? And maybe that should be dealt with in some way?
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Jan 24, 2017 05:14
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