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Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



drat you, Artix! Now I have to get back to this game and finish it before you catch up! I already have two Dragon Quest and Xenoblade games on my plate! I'm not superhuman!

Seriously, though, if I had regular access to a TV I'd probably already be done with this game. The only real problem with it for me is the lack of off-TV play. I suppose I should look into hooking up my Wii U to my monitor.

Surprise, surprise, a game made by Atlus is fun to play.

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Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Artix posted:

Taru-, Raku- and Suku- are your buff spells for Attack, Defense, and Agility respectively (I think, I always get Taru and Raku mixed up). -kaja is a buff, -nda is a debuff. Example: Sukukaja boosts the party's avoid and accuracy, Sukunda reduces the enemy's
No, you got it right. Taru is Attack, and Raku is Defense. Fortunately, like most recent SMT games, Tarukaja and Tarunda cover both physical and magical attack, and Rakukaja and Rakunda both phys and magic defense, and affect all allies or enemies. This eliminates a family of spells (Makakaja and Makanda, which covered magical attack and defense, and is easy to confuse with Makarakarn, a spell that reflects magic damage) and reduces both complexity and the time spent buffing. That second one is especially important, because buffs and debuffs work like they do in Persona games, not mainline SMT; they don't stack and only last for three turns, at which point they need to be re-applied. I usually only use either buff or debuff skills until I have access to Debilitate (which works like all three debuffs rolled into one spell, but only affects one target), unless the boss really hits like a truck or is made of literal bricks. I also tend to prefer to give each character one buff or debuff spell, not load one character down with everything and make them useless for any other purpose.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Kurieg posted:

I love how they both instinctively know how to invoke their costume changes (in unison, no less) but have no idea what's going on otherwise.
They've watched enough magical girl anime (or maybe sentai shows, in Itsuki's case) that it's second nature for them.

Zandar posted:

Don't forget Makajama, which prevents magic use. Unfortunately a lot of the ailment spells have pretty random names, but at least ailment cures tend to be something sounding like the ailment followed by "-di".
I will always forget about Makajama, because nothing ever uses Makajama. Also, I'm pretty sure the status ailment that prevents magic is called something different in Persona games? Either way, spell names in MegaTen are a huge mess, and even after seven-ish years of playing the games I don't have every name and effect memorized. It doesn't help that they change things around every so often. The core names usually stay the same (aside from the Zan/Garu switch-ups), but for example, what Nocturne called Fire Breath, Devil Survivor called Fire Dance, and what Strange Journey called "Jihad", SMT IV called "Antichthon". And what in the world is a "Pleroma", and why did it replace "Boost/Amp" in SMT IV?

Picayune posted:

If I'm recalling correctly, Zan is actually force, not wind. I'm not sure why you can have force or wind but not both, but eh, game logic.
Yeah, Zan is Force damage, and usually carries the secondary effect of instakilling petrified targets. I believe force and wind coexisted in the earlier Persona games, which had a truly ridiculous number of attack elements; one for each weapon type (which technically so does this game, but four weapon types is far less than one for each character), and a whole bunch for magic damage, including magnetism and nuclear. I think they hit a good balance with P3, which had three physical damage types (slash, Strike, and Pierce), four magic damage types (Fire, Ice, Wind, and Electricity), and then the two insta-kill types (Light/Expel and Darkness/Curse), although I wish Light and Darkness were used for more than just insta-kill spells.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



She doesn't use the pegasus all the time in battle, but there are attacks where it shows up, sort of.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Blademaster_Aio posted:

I guess it's a case of "my persona is weak to it", but can your persona make you fly?
The answer to that is a spoiler.

Item Getter posted:

It's sort of funny how Persona 5 reintroduced some gameplay elements of the older Persona titles, and one of them they decided to bring back was some of the tons of goofy elemental attacks that Persona 1-2 had, like Gravity.
Didn't know that. I knew that "guns for everyone" was making a comeback, even if they're "not really guns" somehow, and so was a form of negotiation, but I didn't know they were altering the elemental system that's been in place since Nocturne.

Item Getter posted:

This game showed me the thing that Persona awakening cutscenes were always missing.
Shiny Sailor Moon transformation sequences?

Item Getter posted:

How is the FE weapon triangle supposed to work in this game when the enemies (at least that we have seen so far) seem to be generic Persona 3 Shadow looking things which aren't holding any discernible weapons? Or are most of the later enemies visibly holding a sword, spear or whatever. I wonder if that also means that the SMT series staple "immune to physical attacks" enemies don't really appear in this game.
There are enemies for whom it is clear. Some of them should be appearing in this dungeon, IIRC.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



PotatoManJack posted:

The game seems pretty cool, but (and forgive me if this was covered in the thread already) are there demon conversations as an option? That was always one of my favorite things from SMT games, and especially Nocturne.
Fortunately, no in-combat negotiation in this game. Some Mirages in the dungeons are friendly and give sidequests, but the only in-battle conversation with Mirages is boss banter.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Glazius posted:

Sessions look like they could get pretty crazy with a big party.
They can and do, especially since there are mechanics to extend them. I've seriously had like 15-combo Sessions. I'm still not 100% clear on how the game calculates Sessions, though, because I've had it ignore good options for "oh hey this Mirage reflects Lance damage instead of Fire, so let's use Wind - Lance instead of Wind - Fire".

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Honestly, Cain is kinda bland in this game, too. Atlus might have been given carte blanche, but they didn't actually do much with it. As far as I am in the game, he's only shown an actual personality like once or twice.

Touma is pretty great though.

hopeandjoy posted:

Or any home console capable of 3D graphics, for that matter.

*plays Taps on kazoo for the Tellius games*
I'm still holding out hope for Tellius representation in FE Warriors. At least as DLC, if not in the base game.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Technically, everyone has Performa. It's defined in-game as a sort of creative energy that Mirages feed on, and everyone has at least a little bit of it. The crowd in the intro before the first dungeon turned gray and listless because their Performa had been drained by the cloaked Mirages. Performers and entertainers just tend to have a lot more than the average Joe Schmo.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Kurieg posted:

IIRC her Japanese costume is muuuuch worse.

Also Maiko has a surprisingly normal looking face for a game like this, which makes it all the weirder that she's apparently smuggling two basketballs in her shirt.
Most of the female characters in this game are. We've already seen Tsubasa and Kiria, and they're more stacked than high school girls have a right to be. It's funny, because neither Atlus nor IntSys has much of a history of exaggerated character designs like this.

ChaosArgate posted:

I don't think they changed her default Carnage outfit, actually. It's bad, but I haven't heard any rumblings about that particular outfit.
Yeah, they definitely changed one of her other outfits, but I don't think this one was a victim of that trend. And I rarely have her in that outfit when she's in my party. I usually use either her casual clothes (which we saw her revert to before she ninja-vanished), or one of her performance outfits.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Pash posted:



What about Devil Survivor 2 and the anti gravity boobs?
Yeah, the DeSu series is a bit of an exception on Atlus' side, but that's because they hired some actual manga artist for the character designs in that one instead of going with their in-house character designers, IIRC. In almost every other game, character designs are much more realistic.

ChaosArgate posted:

Pretend I posted a picture of Camilla because I'm too lazy to look for one on my phone.
A single exception does not make the rule, especially when you have like a literal thousand characters before that one establishing the pattern.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



hopeandjoy posted:

Thanks for this actually. I wasn't sure if I wanted to pick up this game for full price, so this is a really nice discount. My local Best Buy has a copy in stock still too, so I don't have to pay for shipping. Bonus.
Word of warning: the loading times are supposedly far worse on physical copies than on digital, although the article I saw on it was comparing Japanese versions, so I don't know if the problem was fixed for the NA launch although I highly doubt it. I bought digital because of that.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Okay, looking up the article I originally found, none of the loading times seem super bad, even on disc. But they are noticeably better on digital.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Oberndorf posted:

I think my favorite part of the whole affair is Itsuki's reaction to the various beverages. There's a rotating selection here, and at a couple other. Vending machines around town, and he has a food review on every single one. No matter how bizarre the drink, Itsuki has something complimentary to say about it.

It's the tiniest thing, but it adds a fair amount of personality to Our Hero, Blandman, and is emblematic of the effort put into the game.
Yeah, if the game ever actually depicted any of the foods or drinks you can sample to refill health/increase luck, I'd almost say it was food porn, but nope. Maybe Itsuki has a potential career as a food critic or a taste-tester on some cooking show.

Funky Valentine posted:

Is Tiki going to say "Welcome home, Big Bro!" every time we come back to base and then have a depressing character arc?
Yeah, she's pretty much a hybrid between Rise and Margaret in function, and Nanako in personality.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



The same way a four-White Mage team beats Final Fantasy. With hammers and near-invulnerability despite their squishiness.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



I've used Estoma both to avoid trash mobs when backtracking and to farm Rare and Savage Encounters. It's a pretty useful skill, and I'm all for anything that helps me control encounter rates. Regular encounters aren't difficult to avoid in this game, but not having to deal with them is still pretty handy.

I always, always, always have Smoke Machines on hand in case I get hit by a Savage Encounter I'm not super prepared for. That 100% escape chance is handy against them. Then again, Hee-Ho Mart might not sell them yet, which means you might only have one or two from drops or chests, if any, at this point. You have to treat Savage Encounters like bosses (or at least mini-bosses), because they will kick your poo poo in otherwise. That means going in with buffs and debuffs, because those things hit like trains with electrified cow-catchers bolted on front.

RandallODim posted:

Also it's Unity Note, not Tiki, who sends you updates about available unities. You're just ignoring poor l'il Tiki!
Tiki will also tell you about new Carnages and skills. Her Topic messages on them are less specific than Unity Note's though. IIRC, she just says "It looks like you can make a new Carnage/skill, so come back to the Bloom Palace when you get the chance!" or something like that.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Everyone is capable of sessions, as long as they hit a weakness, IIRC. Bosses, minibosses, the player, random encounters, etc. Savage Encounters are especially vicious when they get first turn and proceed to smash the life out of a party member with a Session. That's an Atlus game for you; you need to remember that all of the overpowered cool options you have access to can also be used against you.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



I also really like the fact that the plot-mandatory skills have mechanical benefits. It makes the mandatory backtracking out of the dungeon worth it, especially since Traport exists, and the checkpoints are so close to the boss areas.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



FPzero posted:

Well it's nice that we've apparently rescued Tsubasa's sister. I figured we would at some point during the game but I was expecting it to happen later. It seemed like the sort of plot point that would be left as an overarching goal for the team to solve hours down the line.
Nope. Ayaha serves as the defining motivation for Tsubasa (and indirectly, Itsuki) to get involved in the whole mess, but she gets rescued early on and then the rest of the game is "whodunnit". That's not to say that Ayaha and the Mass Disappearance won't have any more relevance to the plot, though. Remember, there were still a lot of other people there who are still missing.

You have to wonder though; if they were just sitting there keeping Ayaha in a dark room in the Idolasphere somewhere all this time, why now? It's been like five years. Did it take this long to break a teenage girl's will to the point where Aversa could possess her? Or is there some Fair Folk BS going on and a minute inside is an hour outside or something? Or did all the stars and planets finally align in just the right order to make their cosmic conquest possible?

Commander Keene fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Mar 9, 2017

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



As for Ayaha's basic survival needs, it's quite possible that either there are ways to produce food and drinkable water in the Idolasphere, or that Ayaha or some possessed minions (like for example Goujuin or whatever the announcer guy from the first update's name was) could step out into our world for a quick trip to obtain some. As for sleep, I imagine Aversa kept her on a schedule that barely kept her sane enough to be useful, to make the brainwashing and mind control bit more effective. When you're constantly that tired, you can sleep pretty much anywhere.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



You can also "learn" a skill multiple times, which adds a "+X" to the skill's name, like in SMT IV. Unlike SMT IV, where you got both power boosts and cost reduction, I'm pretty sure you only get the power boosts in TMS.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Not as such, no. That scene was just the game introducing Tharja to the player (and Itsuki), and all of the Mirages except Chrom, Caeda, Cain, and Tiki have one, because they're directly introduced to the player through plot. But they are an important part of their Master's character development and side stories, and they hang around in the Bloom Palace, where you can talk to them and get their opinions on recent developments, which usually amounts to the latest plot point or their Master's most recent event.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



I don't think the world is ready for Motorcycle-Headbutt-Bull.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Artix posted:

So this is...strange? I don't know why this conversation is here - to make you think you're going to have to fight a miniboss or something? Because if you were paying attention, there's no recommended level for this quest. In fact, you don't have to fight anything unless you actively go out of your way to do this in a really inefficient way. You could scour the place from top to bottom, but realistically the only places that we need to check are the 4F midboss room and the boss arena on the roof. Spoiler, we're looking for the former.
The only things I can think of are that either there was a cut miniboss planned for this quest, or that maybe they originally intended to introduce Savage/Rare encounters here?

Explosions posted:

Wait, if Barry never joins the party and gets to wear a sweet idol costume, what are we even doing here?
Barry might just be the "old mentor" archetype for this game, but maybe it still has some plans for him yet.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Artix posted:

If that sounds hilariously broken, well, it is! The main reason they're so ridiculous is because you have to be using specific attacks to cause them, and even if you're using the right skill, they're still fairly uncommon. Like, I don't think Raging Stampede triggers again in this entire dungeon, even though Touma sees fairly regular use.
I had one boss completely neutered for most of the fight by a lucky trigger of one of Itsuki's Ad-Lib Performances. They're really strong.

Artix posted:

and they actually managed to drop Itsuki the first time I ran into one.
I forget; is Itsuki dropping an instant game-over in this game? Atlus tends to do that a lot, although less in recent years. I think even Persona 5 does it that way?

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



ChaosArgate posted:

Yeah, you only get three. It's a little weird, but you never really need a fourth.
Yeah, especially since after a little while everyone will be able to participate in Sessions, and you can swap party members as a free action during battle. So if Touma's up against something strong against Fire and Lances, just swap Kiria in. You need buffs or healing? Switch in Tsubasa. The swapping mechanic means that all of the major roles can still be covered even with a three-man party.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Blastinus posted:

Oh groovy, dungeons that teleport you back to the start if you take a wrong turn. I have no idea why Atlus loves this particular gimmick, but running through that one temple in SMT4 was incredibly stupid the first time because of it.

Incidentally, how's this game for resource management? I noticed in the Aversa fight that you still had plenty of MP by the end of it, and from how you've described it, the sessions and ad-libs seem to provide a lot of extra cost-free damage to boot.
It's a lot like Persona games, and SMT as well, in that you depend heavily upon your skills to deal damage and basic attacks are a last resort. Sessions do help conserve a bit, like All-Out Attacks in Persona games, but you can expect to run dry during dungeon trips. You'll almost always be going into bosses fresh as long as you don't specifically avoid it, though, because there are teleporters fairly close to every boss arena, so you can go home before almost every boss fight. There isn't even the calendar present in the Persona games to make you decide between going back and taking another day or pushing through and having more time available.

Commander Keene fucked around with this message at 02:10 on May 5, 2017

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Yeah, the key point here is that he cared enough to fix it without being asked, and that he was willing to do something he had obviously never done before in order to do so. Obviously Kiria was more moved/impressed by that than upset at the quality of the fix.

vdate posted:

Really, the repair job is kind of Aya's fault. Itsuki knew he knew gently caress-all about sewing and went to somebody he knew was a fair bit better at it than him, and deferred to her advice. It's just that Aya apparently has something of a warped sense of humour (since she appeared to be messing with at least one of her sister, Kiria, and Itsuki). Or maybe she just knows Kiria better than our hero does.
Why can't it be both? I know I've simultaneously helped and trolled people before.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Comparing these guys to Wild Card users is definitely apples to oranges, though. They (even Itsuki, who despite being the protagonist doesn't seem to have any more power than his buddies unlike the WC-users in modern Persona games) behave more like the party members in Persona games, with a touch more versatility afforded by a greater number of skill slots and the ability to change up what skills they learn somewhat. Touma is never going to learn Expel or Curse skills AFAIK, for example, and is always going to be best at hitting things and burning them, frequently at the same time. That alternate weapon he gets that teaches the Wind skill is like if Junpei got a second Persona that was statistically identical to and shared skill slots with Hermes, but learned a Wind skill or two instead of the Fire skills Hermes gets, and he could switch only from the menu. Being a Wild Card user is more like being as many as twelve different characters who can switch out at a moment's notice.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



That's how it works in every mainline game since Nocturne (and most of the side series since then, as well), yes. Persona still sticks to the old method for some strange reason, despite multi-target (de)buffs being even more essential in those games due to the 3-round duration.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Blademaster_Aio posted:

Buffs are really good in persona.

Not by themselves, but debuffing the enemy's defense and buffing your attack leads to a lot more damage than without any buffs.

Nobody resists buffs or debuffs so they're a way to either boost your damage, or have the enemy waste turns trying to remove the debuffs / buffs.
Intelligent use of (de)buffs is essential in most MegaTen games. It's just that using the single-target buffs in Persona games is more a matter of "who really needs it the most?" rather than "everybody gets one!". I'll Tarukaja my main attacker, for example, and Rakukaja anyone who seems to be taking a lot of damage, rather than putting everything on everyone, and I rarely use Sukukaja before getting Masukukaja.

Fortunately, you rarely need to spend the SP to cast the multi-target debuffs, though. You only really need to buff and debuff against bosses, where there's one big target to smack down, and most of the time the cohorts of the boss aren't threatening enough in their own right. Debilitate does speed up the process somewhat, though, and I really wish Luster Candy existed in Persona (well, Chie has a skill kind of like it in P4 Golden, but she can only cast it like twice).

Silver Falcon posted:

I never bothered with the target-all elemental spells. I figured it'd be too easy to have one enemy in a group resist/null/repel whatever element and gently caress up my chances for a session. Am I a dumbass?
It's definitely not wise to use them in a situation where you don't know everyone's resistance to that element, but if you know nobody in the enemy party is going to screw you like that, go right ahead. On the other hand, there's no benefit to using them in this game beyond the damage, unlike in Persona where it can knock everyone down and save you some SP doing it individually.

Oberndorf posted:

I haven't gotten more than one or two dungeons further in the game, but if memory serves you can pick a primary target for your AoE moves. If that primary target is vulnerable, you session regardless of weaknesses in the rest of the enemy group.
IIRC this is true. You still don't want to accidentally heal an enemy or die due to reflected damage, so caution using multi-target elementals is still advised.

Commander Keene fucked around with this message at 21:22 on May 17, 2017

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Heat Riser is only single target (at least in P4), which means it takes more time to put up on all of your party members than multi-casting the three buffs individually, or the duration of the first casting. Chie's second evolution skill (Dragon Soul or something) does the whole party, but it costs so much SP that even at level 99 she can only barely cast it twice. Heat Riser is practically useless, whereas Luster Candy would allow me to have one character handle all the buffing and one handle all the debuffing with Debilitate (although the only character to have access to them would probably be the MC). As it stands, it's more efficient both time and SP-wise to split up the (de)buffing and have everyone spend a turn doing it.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Artix posted:

And this...Oh, Fangbreaker. My sweet, precious baby Fangbreaker. This is going on Itsuki and literally never leaving, because it's a combination sword attack *and* Tarunda. There is nothing in the game that is immune to it (barring the obvious "things that reflect swords"), it costs basically nothing, and it guarantees that Itsuki always has something he can be doing in a fight, no matter how useless he would otherwise be. Touma has Hamstring, which is the Sukunda equivalent of this skill and is equally amazing.
I loved Fang Breaker in SMT IV, and it's every bit as good here. It's not a super amount of damage (as it's Light damage), but being able to attack AND debuff at the same time is great. Fang Breaker (and its equivalents for the other two debuffs) is a wonderful way to open any fight you expect to be challenging.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Yeah, aside from her introduction in the Velvet Room Bloom Palace (where she literally says some sort of Japanese onomotopoeia for "stare"), Tharja isn't particularly stalker-ish in this game. She does like teasing Kiria, though, as we've seen in her side-story.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



I wouldn't say the new outfit looks better, because it looks incredibly dumb, but it's less creepy and doesn't ruin the scene so it's fine. I'll never use that outfit in combat, though. Not that I would have used the bikini/lingerie or whatever, either.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Artix posted:

Unlike Shibuya, Harajuku is 100% optional, although the structure is largely the same. Like the cafe in Shibuya, food is strictly inferior to drinks on account of costing twice as much for the same benefit, but if you're dying to hear more of Itsuki's food critiques, it's here for you.
Heh, you should do a "food episode". It's just about the most personality and characterization we're going to get out of Mr. Blue, so it'd be good to show it off. Maybe hold off until you get access to all the food shops, though.

Artix posted:

...Clams? Fungus? Dirt? What the *gently caress* is this medicine?
They're all "illusory", so maybe it's a placebo? The power to be not hung over was inside Maiko all along?

Artix posted:

Anyway, while we're here beating up on L1 enemies, we can grab Bow-Thunder from the sword we just made for Itsuki. Now, I'm not suggesting that you do this before Chapter 3 proper starts, but it might not be the worst idea in the world to grab a Bow session skill. Just saying.
I mean, you have the skill slot open anyways, so you might as well, even if you don't have a party member who can use Bows yet. Too bad it can't trigger off of those consumables from the Hee-Ho Mart that deal Bow damage, though. It seems kinda useless at this point.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



I'd be annoyed if my boss showed up to work drunk/hung over, and I'd call myself fairly laid-back, as well. And on top of that, being expected to pick up some medicine for her hangover?

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Kurieg posted:

THE REASON OF YOSUGA HAS wait wrong game.
Eh, every MegaTen has a Yashiro.

Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Robodog posted:

Maybe in Japan tea might be more popular, but in America it's by far coffee or something like that.
Tea is really popular almost everywhere. The USA is pretty much the only exception, and that's largely due to colonial import taxes the British levied, IIRC. Americans had to find other things to drink, because tea was expensive at the time, so coffee supplanted it.

But yeah, the swap is supposed to make it sound more like a common pick-up line.

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Commander Keene
Dec 21, 2016

Faster than the others



Blaze Dragon posted:

We haven't seen a single evil Mirage Master. Furthermore, he's a Myrmidon - and considering the long-rear end hair, his Mirage is Navarre. The Navarre archetype always starts as enemies before being convinced to join your side.

I expect him to join after Tsubasa convinces him to do so. That's how it went for Caeda and Navarre, after all.
I haven't beaten the game yet, but I'm completely expecting at least one evil Mirage Master to show up during the plot. There's just not enough tension if all of the enemies are psychic murderghosts from another world. Gotta have that human "traitor" to up the ante. I'm personally suspecting that one flamboyant guy who keeps popping up from time to time.

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