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This is just a list of the various factors she mentioned, most of which without even any comment let alone rebuttal. I'm not sure how that constitutes a 'takedown'.
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Feb 26, 2017 14:28
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forkboy84 posted:This is absurd. I get wanting to defend Corbyn but show some rational thought. His stance on Brexit is absolute poison with the people who actually vote Labour, & the people who don't simply don't believe him. If you want to know if Labour should oppose Brexit, you can ask that. In fact they have asked that, and the results showed support for a soft Brexit as the least divisive option. The poll posted, about whether or not Britain was right to vote leave, is not the same question. The only reason to ask it rather than ask a more accurate one is if you want a result that you can make support your conclusion. As Kokoro Wish said, it clearly misrepresents some opinions.
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Feb 26, 2017 14:47
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Pissflaps posted:Those results show that 'no Brexit' would please most labour voters. 'Most' implies more than half. It would please 45%. Over a soft Brexit it would please/delight an extra 9%, at the cost of angering an extra 13%. Doesn't really seem like it would improve fortunes. In any case it's certainly a more accurate poll than simply asking whether or not Britain was right to leave, and twisting that to imply what people want to do now.
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Feb 26, 2017 14:56
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Pissflaps posted:Hard Brexit - which Corbyn ran a three line whip on voting for - pleases the fewest labour voters. You're gonna have to provide some evidence that many people other than you consider Labour to be supporting hard Brexit, against everything Labour have actually been saying. Pissflaps posted:So over half think they should, or don't mind either way. For someone who loves beating up strawman Corbyn supporters for saying polls don't matter, there isn't an ironicat big enough.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:01
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Pissflaps posted:They ran a three line whip on an unamended article 50 bill and have insisted they will offer no resistance to the process - something you've just been crowing is the best course of action. This doesn't answer a question that was clearly about public perception. There's no evidence people think Labour backs hard Brexit, which is what you're claiming.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:05
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Pissflaps posted:So your plan is for Jeremy to pursue a hard Brexit but hope that people don't notice because they can't work out what labour is doing? You're doing a good job of trying to shift the goalposts, but when you're talking about a poll public perception is what matters. I'd be happy to argue that triggering Article 50 in isolation doesn't constitute support for hard Brexit (because it doesn't) but my opinion is less relevant than the public at large. And you have no evidence to back up the assertion that people see Labour as a hard Brexit supporting party. EDIT: You're right guys, Pissflaps is an idiot. Sorry.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:13
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Darth Walrus posted:Most of those are 'safe seats' where Labour gets about 40% of the vote and the rest is too evenly split between other parties for anyone else to approach that (so, for instance, it might be 20% Conservative, 20% UKIP, 20% Independent). In a referendum, party splits don't matter - all that matters is whether you support one side or the other, so you see Leave wins in seats the Conservatives or UKIP couldn't hope to gain. The problem, of course, is that that vote-split now seems to be eroding as the Conservatives cannibalise UKIP, making them more powerful in the north than they have been in decades. The British left seems to have a fundamental problem at the moment - the electorate is split between two blocs, Labour/Lib Dem and Conservative/UKIP, with little crossover between them (since the Conservatives ate a bunch of Lib Dem voters in 2015, anyway). The latter is bigger, and its splits are healing. Labour cannibalising the Lib Dems might help a little, but they'd still be outnumbered. This is the fundamental problem the left has - there are just more right wing Tory/UKIP supporters than there are progressive Labour/Lib Dem/Green supporters. Voters move more easily between the parties inside their 'block', and the progressive block is dividing more while the Tories eat up UKIP. Anyone suggesting there is a quick fix electoral solution to this in the style of Tony Blair is deluding themselves. Voters need to be convinced to abandon right wing ideals and move to the left, and that is a long and arduous process that may take decades.
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Feb 26, 2017 15:45
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Pissflaps posted:This is why corbyn and his supporters like you need to have your noses rubbed in the looming dogshit that is his performance at a general election. I don't know why you think a poor performance at a general election is going to convince anyone to change their ideology and suddenly support centrist neoliberalism. If anyone actually did that then the Greens/Lib Dems/UKIP would have no voters. People are going to continue to support socialism regardless of how popular/unpopular it is.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:07
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think it will convince you to change, but it'll change the minds of traditional labour members away from supporting this ludicrous experiment (this is already happening), and you can go back to mumbling about parliament 'not working' and let the people have their opposition back. Being a 'traditional' Labour member doesn't make your vote count for any more than a new member, and Corbyn supporters had a big majority. If he sticks to his guns and doesn't resign until a genuine left-wing alternative appears we'll see who people want to vote for.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:16
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Private Speech posted:The question is how many of them? And is supporting Brexit somehow socialism for you? Is 'people voted for something so it's mandatory now to do it' socialism? Because, you know, people as in the majority do support Tory plans and the current government. Does that somehow mean that Labour shouldn't oppose it? Not everything has to be viewed through the prism of Brexit. Brexit is going to happen regardless of the stance of the Labour party. As much as possible I'd like them to work to soften it, but by the end of this parliament it will all be over. I care about the future direction of the country and to that end, the future direction of Labour.
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Feb 26, 2017 17:40
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Private Speech posted:So, again, supporting Brexit puts Labour on the correct path for the future? And Labour has about as much ability to soften Brexit as it has to stop it. The ultimate form it takes (barring any amendments in Lords, which I gather you see less urgent than Micheal loving Heseltine) is going to be decided purely by government negotiators. After this vote passes there is nothing anyone else can do to influence it, short of somehow bringing down the government and getting elected (ahahahhahhahaaah good luck with this the way the polls are). Honestly? I don't much care whether Labour opposes Brexit entirely or pushes for soft Brexit. Brexit will be over by the next election, any party's 'position' on it has an expiration date. I want Labour to remain a socialist party and to push their ideological views like workers rights, healthcare, poverty, housing etc. Getting the public on side over those issues is more important and will help influence the government more than simply whether you plant your flag on 'leave' or 'remain'. Pissflaps posted:the Labour Party needs saving from you See what we did to change the Labour party is actually join the Labour party. That's why we have influence over it and you do not. jabby fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Feb 26, 2017 |
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Feb 26, 2017 18:12
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Pissflaps posted:Well, yes. Labour is hosed. We know this. I'm sure your plan of endlessly whinging while doing nothing will come good in the end. What do you call the level of political interest below clicktivist?
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Feb 26, 2017 18:18
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LemonDrizzle posted:It's darkly amusing that the slumbering remnants of Thatcher's cabinet are providing more effective opposition to the government's agenda than the official Opposition. By what metric? You (and the media) have just decided that because Heseltine is going to vote with Labour lords to oppose the government that makes him the opposition and Labour irrelevant. Jeza posted:Personal opinions aside, you don't need to step outside your bubble far to see that Corbyn is simply unelectable in this country. Even if you think he is great, even if he was great, it's just hopeless optimism to think he can turn things around from this point. It's just spinning wheels in the mud, he's never making traction, that golden "gotcha" moment where he captures popular opinion will never come. There are two kinds of people: young millennials who love him and want change in all ways, and everybody else who thinks the man is a joke. The vast majority of Corbyn supporters are resigned to the fact that it's nigh impossible he can win a general election. However, we aren't about to relinquish control of Labour back to the PLP so they can drag it back to the right. That's why supporting Corbyn is important until there's another left-wing candidate. You can argue that's not in the best interests of the country, but at some point you have to vote for the principles you believe in rather than believing the narrative that you can only ever chose the lesser of two evils. Pissflaps posted:If she were alive she'd probably reassign that accolade to Jeremy Corbyn. That's very doubtful, because she never said she wanted a weak Labour party. She said she wanted a Labour party that agreed with her, even if they ended up winning. It's like, literally the opposite thing.
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Feb 26, 2017 19:12
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Weirdly enough Tom Watson was very good on Peston today. He said quite clearly that no, the party isn't going to change leader and yes, they can win a general election under Corbyn. He managed to answer questions about whether or not it was all Corbyn's fault, and he made the reasonable point that the people who supported Corbyn aren't exactly helping anything if they abandon him now. I'm quite sure he doesn't believe a lot of it, but for any other Labour MPs watching it really is that easy. It's a shame that Ed Miliband's former adviser came on immediately afterwards to try and contradict it all.
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Feb 26, 2017 21:57
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Hopefully the local party pick an actual left-wing MP, preferably one who supports Corbyn.
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Feb 27, 2017 01:59
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HJB posted:Just having a quick look for info, I spotted this - http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/gorton-labour-party-police-bullying-11603957 Wonder if they're still suspended. It would be extremely funny for Corbyn to pull a Blair and drop in his favourite person over the heads of careerists who have been waiting for Kaufman to step down/die for years.
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Feb 27, 2017 02:17
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Paxman posted:Labour was always left of centre. The reason people left of centre bother with British politics is because they believe it is possible to do some good, and Labour has in fact done some good when it has been in power, despite its many failings. Corbyn absolutely didn't 'retain the policy he inherited' on austerity. Prior to 2015 Labour were loudly proclaiming that yes, there need to be cuts but we will just balance the budget slower than the Tories would.
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Feb 27, 2017 17:58
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The issue with earning lots of money and still being working class is that as the years pass only two things can happen: a) You save and/or invest your money wisely and accumulate a lot of capital. While you might not be able to live off the profits, you could still live off it without working for quite a while. That kind of distances you from the working class. b) You spend all of what you earn and live an extremely ostentatious and expensive lifestyle. This also distances you from the the majority of the working class, and makes people think you're kind of a dick. Either way you might still fit the original definition of working class, but you certainly aren't relatable to most working class people. Which is a shame, because either way you will have a lot more in common with them than with the capital classes.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:22
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I guess you could spend it all on good causes, but that happens so rarely I think it's safe to discount it.
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Feb 28, 2017 00:28
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Always nice to be reminded that Labour don't have a monopoly on embarrassing public feuds.
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Feb 28, 2017 01:46
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