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blunt posted:Find people in your community who share your views and form a political party. Also anti-monopoly regulations are unnecessary because the free market will inevitably produce a plucky independent business to topple the overly-bureucratic megacorps.
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Feb 4, 2017 16:52
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Guavanaut posted:Everyone take out your copybooks, today's lesson is Liberals will always defend right wing populism over any kind of leftism. Write it 100 times. Why are fascist and champion of forgotten millions mutually exclusive?
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Feb 5, 2017 14:17
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You could probably give an accurate answer that the leave case was predicated on absolute lies but given they're lies that people really want to believe I doubt you could sell that in the timeframe available.
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Feb 5, 2017 15:12
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I mean if the right want to throw themselves out of helicopters I'm not going to stop them.
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Feb 5, 2017 18:53
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Fangz posted:It's a matter of when. I was gonna say "massively cut everything" definitely seems like what May will do, whether or not she will raise taxes is debatable but she sure as poo poo will find some way to make the poor pay for her fuckups.
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Feb 5, 2017 19:21
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Fangz posted:May's basic strategy is very simple - she needs to delay the crash until some other crisis happens (e.g. the Trump recession). Then she can hide the consequences of Brexit and the lovely government response to it in the wider global recession. That's how she'll avoid blame. It's going to be fun watching her manage that within tory ideological constraints if so.
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Feb 5, 2017 19:26
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spectralent posted:Cap got brainwashed, like basically everyone should've seen coming because, seriously, comic books. I kind of like the idea of Captain America being just the sort of genius loci of the USA and so he thinks whatever the populace thinks.
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Feb 5, 2017 21:10
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I wonder if there might be a difference between a leadership contest and functioning as leader of the labour party that might elicit differing responses from someone.
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Feb 5, 2017 22:07
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He seems keen on the whole "ever closer union" thing.
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Feb 6, 2017 14:08
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He's got a couple of funny bits but I don't super rate him tbh. I also assumed he either was already a lib dem or voted for them given his avowed liberalness.
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Feb 6, 2017 14:40
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I dunno how other people feel about him but he seems kind of like jimmy carr in that he gets less funny the more you suspect he's serious.
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Feb 6, 2017 14:42
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Ross Noble was fairly funny last time I saw him. Dunno what he's like now though.
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Feb 6, 2017 14:45
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Pissflaps posted:Ross Noble is, and always has been, an unfunny twat. Well now I definitely feel vindicated in my enjoyment of him.
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Feb 6, 2017 14:48
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icantfindaname posted:So I looked at the Wikipedia history of The Guardian on a whim and holy poo poo what an absolutely horrific goldmine Liberals.txt.
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Feb 6, 2017 19:46
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The joys of majority government.
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Feb 6, 2017 22:22
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Labour minority in "having no legislative power whatsoever" shocker. Next up: Parties that win more than 50% of seats have total governmental fiat? FPTP expert tells us.
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Feb 6, 2017 22:28
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If the tories are willing to vote lock step with the party line without pressure to do so I doubt they would stop doing so if the alternative was actually loving up the A50 vote.
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Feb 6, 2017 22:51
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Pissflaps posted:We'll never know because instead of opposing the bill Labour supports it. That is how picking a strategy works, yes, however I would venture that we may reasonably intuit that the tories as a party want to see A50 invoked, and any who obstructed that would face severe ire from the leadership. Thus rebellion is unlikely to occur if it actually threatens the party line. I know you have a fondness for unspecified alternatives but I'm afraid that an alternative not being proven in practice does not automatically make it the better one.
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Feb 6, 2017 22:57
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Pissflaps posted:Except I told you that this strategy would not work. It's not working. It was never going to work. I think you knew it wasn't going to work yourself. And, as I said, that does not mean the alternative was any more likely to work. Sometimes there is no way to achieve what you want.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:02
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Fangz posted:You have to lead public opinion sometimes. Especially if public opinion is only narrowly in favour of a position. You have to look through the lies and bullshit and realise, no, I am going to take the right position on this and in a few years you'll see I was right. Which is a fine argument for allowing Labour MPs to vote against A50, but not for subjecting the entire party to yet another round of evisceration by the overwhelmingly pro-brexit media in this country for no gain. The argument that brexit is stupid has been made and lost, however correct it may be. Making the same argument isn't going to change anyone's mind until the actual playing field changes, which won't occur until A50 is invoked and we end up actually trying to negotiate.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:39
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Tesseraction posted:Out of interest how would you defend the EU from a left-wing perspective that isn't a negative about leaving but a positive about staying? You might be able to argue that international unions are probably a practical necessity when it comes to facilitating any sort of free movement and that predation upon that by Capital is sort of inevitable as long as there are predatory capitalist forces, and thus the EU does probably represent the best hope for internationalist free movement, or at least any other arrangement would probably not be free of its problems with free movement. Fangz posted:The argument that brexit is stupid will be made slowly and painfully over the next decades. We should stop giving a poo poo about the pro-brexit media. Very probably so, I concur. However I doubt it will change anyone's mind, the british public are not known for their ability to admit to being wrong, though I would anticipate increased prevalence from younger, pro-remain voices as the decades roll on. However pretending the press don't exist seems silly when they effectively set our national agenda. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Feb 6, 2017 |
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Feb 6, 2017 23:47
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Fangz posted:Folks like me are not just going to forget that Labour prioritised not getting eviscerated by the right wing media over representing the views of the people who voted for them. Labour is loving hosed. That seems like wilful stupidity to be honest.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:50
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Pissflaps posted:Your arguments for Labour turning pro brexit are the same that the Lib Dems used for going into coalition with the Tories in 2010. "I'm nick clegg and I want to sit at the big table!" ?
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Feb 6, 2017 23:53
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Fangz posted:Supporting momentarily popular things you don't believe in that you know will be bad and unpopular later, because the press might be ~mean~ is the most disgusting political opinion I've seen all day, and I've been keeping up with US news. Seriously, wtf? Conceding an argument because you lost it and your opposition has only been emboldened by that while looking for an alternative angle of attack is not what you are describing and you are fully aware of that. Repeating the original Remain arguments in lieu of attempting to prove the government's inability to actually deliver on their promises is foolish.
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Feb 6, 2017 23:57
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Fangz posted:You have not lost the argument until you choose to concede. Of course you can lose the drat argument, you don't win by refusing to accept that your arguments have been defeated in debate. If you repeat the same argument when the discussion has accepted it as beaten you do not win the debate, you get ignored.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:00
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hakimashou posted:You don't have to win an argument to be right. Being right counts for gently caress all, however. If being right made a difference we'd all be living in a communist utopia by now.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:02
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Fangz posted:Are we worried about Labour being 'eviscerated', or are we worried about Labour being ignored? Why do you suppose the two are mutually exclusive?
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Feb 7, 2017 00:03
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Fangz posted:Because right now Labour is a loving joke. Being attacked by the press is an improvement from a party that might as well not exist. As Trump shows, sometimes the route to power is via being hated. Trump won because his platform is populist authoritarian garbage which appals to angry idiots. You can't make a pro-remain argument based on actual facts that fits that mold.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:06
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Fangz posted:Labour can win if they can point at the millions of jobs lost and thousands of lives lost and blame the tories for it. That's the Trump message, and it can win against blanket negative coverage. Except here, they don't even have to lie. They can't win by saying 'oh we would have done this thing we all agreed to slightly differently, in a way that everyone knows is impossible'. And I expect them to do so once that happens, or perhaps even once it becomes clear that this will be the result of the government's negotiations. But it has to happen first. And it would probably require a solid left leader other than Corbyn.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:12
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Tesseraction posted:Which would be fair but given how Turkey's accession to the EU is treated by politicians as the suicide of civilised Europe, is it truly internationalist or a case of choosing solidarity of ethnic origin? This isn't to say that leaving the EU is the necessary response, but what's the positive case for internationalism when the EU is reaching the limits of expansion? TTP did not have freedom of movement in its deal, neither does the Canadian one. More to the point, Yanis Varoufakis said that freedom of movement should require a bilateral agreement of a minimum-living wage before that freedom is allowed to be recognised or upheld, citing the unwilling migration of Eastern Europeans (in particular, but EU citizens in general) because working conditions in their home country are basically "go gently caress yourself for peanuts." As I said, free movement is very open to exploitation as long as there is an exploitative class with the facility to do so. Be it racial or economic. A bilateral minimum wage would simply be untenable with the disparity between economies and the suggestion then becomes "no freedom of movement for poor countries" If you want internationalist free movement that's kind of the price you pay for it. Unless you plan on getting rid of captialism and international wealth disparity before free movement you're a bit scuppered.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:16
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Paxman posted:I dont think there's a long term plan to build up support for staying in. How does voting for Brexit make it easier to argue later that Brexit is a disaster? It is harder to argue that brexit is not a disaster and actually will be the return of britain to glorious empire when it's happened and it is actually disastrous. Not an ideal option I know but apparently a lot of people aren't willing to believe that the future might be bad.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:19
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Paxman posted:Yes but I don't see how that is an argument for voting for Brexit now? It's not really, A50 is happening either way so it doesn't really matter what Labour does at this stage. Trying to offer amendments is nice but unlikely to work. Voting against it is even less likely to work. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Feb 7, 2017 |
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Feb 7, 2017 00:23
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Fangz posted:We wouldn't still be arguing about this if *any* of us really thought it doesn't matter. It concerns me that people think it does and are using that as their basis for whether or not to support the labour party in lieu of... presumably either not doing anything or voting for the lib dems.
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Feb 7, 2017 00:26
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Fangz posted:Then it should concern you that Corbyn is doing this. No matter what I say, there's a lot of pissed off Remain voters, and you will not convince them all it 'doesn't matter'. What was it you said about being right?
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Feb 7, 2017 00:32
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LemonDrizzle posted:having just looked it up on wikipedia, i can confidently state that Roseberry Topping is not a mountain If you look at it from a distance it looks bigger than it is. Also I would like to push Phillip Davies off it.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:29
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York is also horrible.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:36
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They pretty bad, though.
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Feb 7, 2017 17:52
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The other statisitc I heard that may be wrong is that there is more land in Surrey that is used as golf course than is used as housing.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:03
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Higher density housing around mass transit hubs would make suburbs more practical.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:08
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| # ¿ May 14, 2024 15:30 |
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There was a man at work today haranguing everyone in the shop about how everything he didn't like was because it wasn't British and if it was British it would all be better. Which I'm not sure is true in the case of the POS machine.
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Feb 7, 2017 20:56
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