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First off, I apologize if this has been addressed/asked in the yuge -- I mean very, very YUGE, many thousands it's great -- thread on the Trump administration. But I've noticed something in this election cycle in particular. It's like Trump supporters and those on the right are essentially just taking the same criticisms and comments addressed at them, and then just turning it around and claiming it's the left/liberals/Clinton supporters/anyone-who-doesn't-like-Trump who are actually being that way. For example, the criticism that many Trump supporters, the "true believer," die-hard types, are cult-like in that they act like to admit Trump is EVER wrong or lied is tantamount to betrayal or being a traitor to the cause. I've seen multiple people recently throwing it back and saying the left is "cult like." Or another example is the fake news thing -- I don't think anyone who followed the last year closely can dispute that the amount of fake news being spread around on Facebook by Trump supporters was staggering and was frequently called out by anyone who took time to check. But then they just started throwing it back and saying it's Clinton supporters and the "liberals" who were the fake news generators. Culminating in Trump calling CNN "fake news" and then his true believers have since refused to acknowledge CNN as a legitimate news source. Another example is many (not all) of his supporters and Trump himself spewing hateful, divisive rhetoric, attacking protesters at Trump rallies, refusing to condemn racists/racism, etc. And then they just threw it right back and said it's the left and liberals who are hateful and non-inclusive and violent. I could go on with a few more but I think I've elaborated enough on what I'm referring to. Now from being on the SA forums since it was free to register and back when the best things around were DPPH and NMP3, I am very well aware of organized trolling on a large scale, a lot of it originating from 4chan or other such places and SA itself. My question is, has anyone else thought or considered (or better yet seen evidence of) people or a group who are basically taking these criticisms and just throwing them right back as a way to troll for the lulz? I mean when you think about it, it would be like the ultimate way to troll and show how fickle 'grassroots' support in politics can be. But I could be totally off and maybe I'm just extrapolating too much from it. If it was just one example of it being thrown back on those making the accusations, I wouldn't think anything of it. But it seems to be so widespread. And yes, I acknowledge there are hypocrites on both sides and some of this is true of people on both sides. Also please note I'm not someone who thinks ALL Trump supporters are a certain way, or that they are all uneducated, or what have you. I have an entire family of Trump voters who are incredibly educated yet still fall into the partisan trap.
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Feb 2, 2017 04:05
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SA isn't important enough for well-organized trolling attempts. The last attempted forum invasion ended with the invaders doxxing a dog and then shutting down their own forum out of fear.
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Feb 2, 2017 04:06
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Oxxidation posted:SA isn't important enough for well-organized trolling attempts. No I wasn't meaning that it's coming from SA or anything, or directed at SA. The above examples are just things I see happening on various comment pages on Facebook mainly, but also on news sites, etc. I just thought to ask/mention it here because...well I don't know why exactly it just seemed like the right place? But rather just asking if anyone has considered, or seen evidence of, a group of people out there (maybe on The Donald subreddit or 4chan) who are basically just having their people go out and take criticisms from the left to the right, and throwing it back from right to left. If that makes any sense? I could just be crazy though and my moderate, though left leaning, 'snowflake' self needs a safe space and other people to agree with me and tell me the bad men are just being mean. MarksMan fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Feb 2, 2017 |
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Feb 2, 2017 04:09
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Oxxidation posted:SA isn't important enough for well-organized trolling attempts. Lol what
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Feb 2, 2017 04:10
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MarksMan posted:No I wasn't meaning that it's coming from SA or anything, or directed at SA. The above examples are just things I see happening on various comment pages on Facebook mainly, but also on news sites, etc. I just thought to ask/mention it here because...well I don't know why exactly it just seemed like the right place? But rather just asking if anyone has considered, or seen evidence of, a group of people out there (maybe on The Donald subreddit or 4chan) who are basically just having their people go out and take criticisms from the left to the right, and throwing it back from right to left. If that makes any sense? There are absolutely organized right-wing trolling/inciting groups posting on other large forums and comments sections, either from Reddit/4chan or actually paid by the Kremlin (the pay is terrible). They just aren't happening here. The online counter-culture has shifted over the past several years. Before, the rising star of the Internet was nerds. Now it's Nazis.
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Feb 2, 2017 04:13
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Oxxidation posted:SA isn't important enough for well-organized trolling attempts. didn't they also try to drop dox on the goatse guy
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Feb 2, 2017 05:12
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There was a lot of suspicious copy paste posting going on, such as when shillary fell ill at the 9-11 memorial ceremony and had to be driven home. Nearly every reddit comment about it was how she was "chucked like a side of beef" into the van.
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Feb 2, 2017 05:17
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Attack them using their ammo seems like a natural progression of the Rovian attack them where they are strong, as both methods can render your opponents strengths deflated. Though that would also assume some level of coordination for the trolling and I can't really speak to that.
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Feb 2, 2017 05:39
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Classic projection mixed with a lot of trolling. But mostly projection. We've seen it for decades. Accuse your opponents of your own sins.
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Feb 2, 2017 15:16
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There has been like 5 actual trolls in the history of the universe and then a lot of people on the internet that actually think the things they say but say "I'm just a troll" to explain to themselves why they are attacking the people they actually legitimately are attacking.
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Feb 2, 2017 15:21
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Most of the accounts posting the kind of stuff you're referring to and initiating the spread on the Internet are definitely trolls. Basically, what happens is: - Legitimate criticism of the Trump administration/fake news sites whatever is created - Within a day or something, someone creates a meme or statement to counter it, often by repeating the same thing backwards or saying Clinton/Obama/legitimate news service did the same thing - An army of fake profiles fills every major news comment section talking about said legitimate criticism with the meme/copy paste statement, destroying the discussion and shifting the focus - Someone shares the meme/statement in itself as their own FB/twitter post. Your aunt sees it via her right wing friends, believes it, and shares it herself This is a planned action, and part of the reason it's getting to be impossible to factually inform someone of anything - the spread of any facts that paint the right person/thing in the negative are immediately countered in a large spread in high numbers.
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Feb 2, 2017 16:54
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MarksMan posted:Also please note I'm not someone who thinks ALL Trump supporters are a certain way, or that they are all uneducated, or what have you. I have an entire family of Trump voters who are incredibly educated yet still fall into the partisan trap.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:02
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I think the OP has a truism. SA as a forum because of its age and early actions should be at the very least provide the most conclusive analysis of an organized trolling effort. I feel that some here kind of get it but to have it broken down into an actual case study type post would be incredibly helpful.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:12
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None of this is in any way new. The right has claimed for a very long time that actually, it's the left who are the true racists, corporate shills, violent, hate freedom, or whatever. The fact that you immediately jumped to thinking it was a massive organized disinformation conspiracy rather than even entertaining the thought that right-wingers might actually think these things is honestly pretty disturbing!
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Feb 2, 2017 17:13
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There absolutely are groups of paid contractors making right wing posts in various places online for payment, it happens in Japan with the netuyos (recognisable because they all talk and type in the same weird, broken English, probably from set scripts). I'm sure it happens here too.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:19
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Oxxidation posted:SA isn't important enough for well-organized trolling attempts. SA forums are mentioned in a ton of articles about benghazi though.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:33
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Shibawanko posted:There absolutely are groups of paid contractors making right wing posts in various places online for payment, it happens in Japan with the netuyos (recognisable because they all talk and type in the same weird, broken English, probably from set scripts). I'm sure it happens here too. It was a prominent feature of Duterte's election in the Philippines as well.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:There has been like 5 actual trolls in the history of the universe and then a lot of people on the internet that actually think the things they say but say "I'm just a troll" to explain to themselves why they are attacking the people they actually legitimately are attacking. Real trolls are a bit more subtle than just crashing into a liberal forum spewing bigotry. They do stuff like saying the exact right thing to get a Star Trek fan forum fighting each other over something idiotic like tribble biology, while they walk away looking innocent. The guys we call "trolls" here who come in and say stuff that seems crazy but in fact is just spouting the Donald J Trump party line are the "alt right" and their dickish air of detachment doesn't mean they are joking. They are deadly, deadly serious.
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Feb 2, 2017 17:56
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Oxxidation posted:SA isn't important enough for well-organized trolling attempts. The alt-right have a lot of time on their hands. SA is actually an influential site. It's not quite 4chan but a lot of memes originate here. Things can get organized here. And it's anarchic enough that you don't get instabanned for expressing alt-right views.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:03
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You need to get out of the bubble if you think that it's all a paid troll army. Did you see the latest Republican primary? There are a LOT of people that buy into this stuff. The reality is that right-wing Internet communities have become almost entirely defensive and driven by counter-narrative because they lack a narrative of their own other than "I'm not a bad person." If you want proof, you don't need to look much farther than how cobbled together and narrowly relevant the "free speech" defense to Milo's troll tour has been, but there are plenty of examples. I think it would be great if people counter-trolled them, but then you have to adopt their tactics, and that means going after their credibility instead of their moral deficiency, and also understanding what they think to the point that you can throw things at them that they haven't formulated a defense to.
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Feb 2, 2017 18:43
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Oxxidation posted:SA isn't important enough for well-organized trolling attempts. It's easy to think this way because this place was founded on the idea that, hardy har har, the internet is serious business, but this place has a readership in the thousands and would absolutely make for a good target. If some third rate indie game developer can make an account here to promote his lovely game and get kickstarter funds, what makes you think that some CIA or whatever agency funded right wing propagandists won't use it that way?
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Feb 2, 2017 19:33
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OneEightHundred posted:You need to get out of the bubble if you think that it's all a paid troll army. It's an unpaid army of complete dickheads who really believe the crap they spout.
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Feb 2, 2017 19:38
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Darko posted:Most of the accounts posting the kind of stuff you're referring to and initiating the spread on the Internet are definitely trolls. Basically, what happens is: This is what I was getting at. I was not/am not sure that it is necessarily being 'directed' or 'organized' or if it is just a bunch of rabid, hardcore alt-right'ers who all just kind of on their own (or going off what they see someone else doing) decided to take the criticisms and then just immediately throw it back, make a simple to understand meme for the simple followers of Trump (for the most part) and then post it in places where they know people already inclined to believe that way would latch on to it and spread it. But it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that it's *possible* that high-level Trump campaign members or even just a hardcore PAC or SuperPAC has it's members kind of 'organizing' and 'guiding' it all. Main Paineframe posted:None of this is in any way new. The right has claimed for a very long time that actually, it's the left who are the true racists, corporate shills, violent, hate freedom, or whatever. The fact that you immediately jumped to thinking it was a massive organized disinformation conspiracy rather than even entertaining the thought that right-wingers might actually think these things is honestly pretty disturbing! Yes, I am aware it's not new in any way. And yes I'm well aware the right thinks this way. But again, I just don't think it would be too much of a stretch to think there is some PAC out there who has it's members kind of organizing it, without the rest really knowing it's being organized. For example, how hard would it be to place 3-4 regular posters on The_Donald subreddit, 3-4 others on 4chan (or the same 3-4) and other well-trafficked meeting places of the right? Not very difficult. And then simply make easy-to-understand and succinct memes or fake news articles, and have those people make posts about them and start discussions about them, knowing it is likely to end up and get propagated to tons of other Facebook feeds, Twitter feeds, etc. I don't think it's some kind of grand, organized conspiracy. I don't even think it's likely people are being paid to do it. But from being on these forums long enough, I know for a fact that it doesn't take that many people to get some bullshit story circulated around the internet. Especially when you add in the fact that in this case, as you said, these people that would be seeing the memes and articles already believe what is being said and like it, so they are encouraged and compelled to circulate it since it confirms their bias and use it as 'proof' that validates their bias. Shibawanko posted:There absolutely are groups of paid contractors making right wing posts in various places online for payment, it happens in Japan with the netuyos (recognisable because they all talk and type in the same weird, broken English, probably from set scripts). I'm sure it happens here too. Considering all the money that flows in a presidential election, it's not hard to think it's possible this is going on. But there are plenty out there who would spread the false information without pay, solely because it helps them validate what they 'believe' and validate their bias, so they post it to their friends and family as kind of a, "Hah! See! I was right all along!"
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Feb 2, 2017 23:50
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MarksMan posted:This is what I was getting at. I was not/am not sure that it is necessarily being 'directed' or 'organized' or if it is just a bunch of rabid, hardcore alt-right'ers who all just kind of on their own (or going off what they see someone else doing) decided to take the criticisms and then just immediately throw it back, make a simple to understand meme for the simple followers of Trump (for the most part) and then post it in places where they know people already inclined to believe that way would latch on to it and spread it. But it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to believe that it's *possible* that high-level Trump campaign members or even just a hardcore PAC or SuperPAC has it's members kind of 'organizing' and 'guiding' it all. Like 15 years ago I used to troll some men's rights forum with my friends that had been harassing people at the college I was at. We really did team up and do all the sort of fake posting and false flag stuff and having a bunch of fake accounts and concern trolling and making disingenuous accounts and whatever. It's the sort of stuff that sounds like deep conspiracy but honestly really isn't when you are talking about posting on the internet. Like it was all really really easy to do and really really easy to think of to do. It didn't take any sort of advanced training to think of things and have them say "man, they'd get so pissed off if we X" then doing X. Like in the end we ended up doing some big convoluted plan to get them to vote to close registration on their forum to new members which involve making a bunch of bad fake new members but also making like a bunch of deep cover accounts that concern trolled their way to suggesting the only solution was closing registration. And people always did seem super crazy to suggest that was what was happening but it was 100% what was happening and they 100% ended up closing the forum to new members so it stopped being able to grow anymore. Stuff can be organized and planned without it being a super big deal. it kinda just writes itself organically and none of it is super hard to think of or implement if it's against a group you know how to push the buttons of.
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Feb 3, 2017 15:39
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MarksMan posted:Yes, I am aware it's not new in any way. And yes I'm well aware the right thinks this way. But again, I just don't think it would be too much of a stretch to think there is some PAC out there who has it's members kind of organizing it, without the rest really knowing it's being organized. For example, how hard would it be to place 3-4 regular posters on The_Donald subreddit, 3-4 others on 4chan (or the same 3-4) and other well-trafficked meeting places of the right? Not very difficult. And then simply make easy-to-understand and succinct memes or fake news articles, and have those people make posts about them and start discussions about them, knowing it is likely to end up and get propagated to tons of other Facebook feeds, Twitter feeds, etc. At this point, what are you even saying? That the people who create fake news are also posting it online? Of course they are - they're not secretly scribbling the stories on toilet paper and hiding them under their pillow only for them to be stolen by PAC ninjas who immediately distribute them to the special ops internet posting squad. There's no need for political organizations to go around posting fake news everywhere. Why? Because the people who create the news already post it everywhere themselves in order to get maximum eyeballs (and ad views) on their article, and because even if they didn't, the people who normally read their site will naturally go out and share articles they like with people and communities they think will like it.
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Feb 3, 2017 17:04
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OneEightHundred posted:You need to get out of the bubble if you think that it's all a paid troll army. Did you see the latest Republican primary? There are a LOT of people that buy into this stuff. I think "right wing" or "republican" is the wrong way to put it. The SJW/TrumpTrolls thing doesnt really break down under the same economic political lines "Left/Right" brings to mind. Lots of hardcore bush-era republicans went for Abuela or didnt vote, and lots of Obama voters went trump.
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Feb 3, 2017 17:10
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Say what you will, but there is a disinformation campaign coming out of the right right now. Putting up fake antifa websites, printing and putting up fake antifa posters that are very anti white. The Bowling Green Massacre. Other straight up lies coming out of the White House. I think a big question(like the OP says) is, do we think that this is something that is being organized with specific goals? A lot of the disinformation can also be seen as statements of intent. "3 million illegal votes." Can easily be read as, "we're going to make it so next election three million less people will be able to vote, and this is the excuse we're using." "The left and antifa groups are the actual racists." Can change into, "well we won't declare the KKK and other white nationalist hate groups terrorist organizations, but when it comes to left wing organizing we'll put the terrorist label on them as soon as we're able to justify it."
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Feb 3, 2017 22:36
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:There has been like 5 actual trolls in the history of the universe and then a lot of people on the internet that actually think the things they say but say "I'm just a troll" to explain to themselves why they are attacking the people they actually legitimately are attacking. Nah.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:01
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There will definitely be a paid troll army of Trump administration, even if it doesn't exist right now. It's the MO of such regimes; every wannabe autocrat has them. The real question is how to counter them effectively.
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Feb 4, 2017 01:08
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fspades posted:There will definitely be a paid troll army of Trump administration, even if it doesn't exist right now. It's the MO of such regimes; every wannabe autocrat has them. The real question is how to counter them effectively. 
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Feb 4, 2017 01:30
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There are people that actually think a thing and put on theatrics to bug people they are against. The idea of the ideologically pure "troll" that is totally divorced from the stuff they say is basically nonexistent. There is people that will exaggerate their positions to push someone's buttons but there really isn't people that are totally separate from the things they are saying.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:06
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I've been wondering if specific people in these forums have been targeted by organized trolls. There has been some spectacular bullshit that's been coming off as targeted to me. Anyone else noticing it.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:15
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BrandorKP posted:I've been wondering if specific people in these forums have been targeted by organized trolls. There has been some spectacular bullshit that's been coming off as targeted to me. Anyone else noticing it.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:16
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jBrereton posted:Consult your doctor Fine, I'll be specific it really seemed like Tiny Brontosaurus was being gone after in an organized way.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:36
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I think both candidates in this election had a pretty sizable paid trolling team - it's not like it'd be all that hard, I'd love to be paid to post poo poo on the internet - and it's clearly an audience that is 24/7 and one that can permeate more than cable news.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:41
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BrandorKP posted:Fine, I'll be specific it really seemed like Tiny Brontosaurus was being gone after in an organized way. Who do you think is paying us to make fun of Eripsa for fifty straight pages
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Feb 4, 2017 02:45
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Accusing your opponent of exactly the things you know you're guilty of is a tactic perfected by Karl Rove during the Bush years and which the right has picked up and been using to great effect ever since. When you're talking specifically about intolerance, it's extremely effective precisely because the one thing liberals ought to be intolerant of is intolerance. Since they would otherwise defend freedom of speech, when they agitate against hate speech it's pretty easy to paint them as hypocrites. They aren't hypocrites, of course, but the defense against the accusation is rather nuanced (and worse, invokes a slippery-slope argument) so of course it doesn't work well in the court of public opinion. Fuckers like Milo are exploiting this and the left is only starting to craft an effective response.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:48
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BrandorKP posted:Fine, I'll be specific it really seemed like Tiny Brontosaurus was being gone after in an organized way. A good way to get some "funny" red text next to your name is to post in the feminism thread and TB is just the easiest target there. I posted endless crap in other threads to no particular notice but engaging in the feminism thread got me this lovely red text. I'm not the only one. All of them careful to mention it was got in the feminism thread.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:53
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Main Paineframe posted:Who do you think is paying us to make fun of Eripsa for fifty straight pages Nobody, but anyone who has been here for years knows the posters involved and Eripsa's eccentricities. The TB stuff seem to be coming from outside, at least outside of D&D.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:56
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BarbarianElephant posted:A good way to get some "funny" red text next to your name is to post in the feminism thread and TB is just the easiest target there. I posted endless crap in other threads to no particular notice but engaging in the feminism thread got me this lovely red text. I'm not the only one. All of them careful to mention it was got in the feminism thread. Right the feminism thread and the negrotown seemed to have been gone after.
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Feb 4, 2017 02:59
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