The Great Goon War, Slight Return (Super-sized tabletop wargaming)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > The Great Goon War, Slight Return (Super-sized tabletop wargaming)

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Volunteering for THE KAISER (Germans)

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 13:16

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 13:17

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

All I remember about this game from a PDF of the manual that circulated behind the scenes is a bunch of nebulous rules interpreted seemingly at random, so this should be fun.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 15:47

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

I understand you don't have the details worked out, but what are the dimensions of that map, and how large forces are we talking about?

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 20:01

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Notahippie posted:

This is awesome - I love the ruleset, the fog of war, and the need for preplanned orders. One idea that dramatically increases the PITA factor but might also increase the Fun: different threads for each brigade/corps/whatever level of organization you want to deal with, so that central command on each side has to react to messages from the front describing what they see instead of having perfect information about what their underlings are dealing with.

Well, the problem with that is first that you probably don't want to flood the forum with threads, second that most observers probably don't want to keep track of so many threads, and third that the sides will probably use Roll20 anyway, rendering the whole thing moot.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 20:28

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

I think I speak for everybody when I say that despite the nominal outcome, the French certainly played a better game than us, and that we were literally saved by the bell.

That being said - suck it, you disgusting frogs!

# ¿ Mar 4, 2017 23:41

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

I will take full credit for failing to notice that all brigades of my division had conditional orders not to stop marching even if they encounter an enemy. That was a baffling decision, and I don't remember how it came to be, and why. I think it may have been decided as a default setting for the entire corps? I just know it happened.

Anyway, the strong initial push for St. Croissant and its execution weren't problems. Problem was that even after identifying an enemy threat, our conditional orders were the worst possible thing that could have happened.

The attack at Q and its execution were debated in the thread, and unfortunately the things I was worried about happened. We should have waited a couple turns for an opportunity to reinforce the assault force, instead of rushing it for no good reason. That would have also reduced the likelihood of a total tactical failure happening due to negligence.

steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Mar 5, 2017

# ¿ Mar 4, 2017 23:56

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Overall I think our main problem after taking St. C. was a lack of overriding authoritative direction by the high command, which led to a lot of constant, unnecessary and uncoordinated shifting by all our attacking troops, which made our heavy guns totally useless. Had we properly accounted for the need to unlimber to be effective, we wouldn't have lost that attack so badly. Once again, I think the desire to rush the objective defeated common sense.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2017 00:04

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

You definitely could, during day. Our plan of defending St. C. at all costs was at all possible only thanks to the night rules.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2017 00:33

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

I know that they were massive, and it's almost unfair that we were still in the game after not one, but two of them.

Anyway, I think your complaints about the setup being too favourable for Germany are not exactly valid, but now it's getting late here, so maybe I will get to it later.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2017 01:07

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Bacarruda posted:

I agree with the spirit of this - if not the exact layout. I'd keep the French in the south and the Germans in the north.

Trin, with the greatest respect, the current 1915 lines don't reflect how this battle turned out.

My division was in complete control of Dejuenner and Le Oeuf by the end of the battle. Saying that we now only own half of it erases much of the gains we played and fought our guts out for.

And TBK's men had a strong foothold on Pasteur. If 8 German chits are enough to give them La Crepe and Quatrepouts-- why isn't a brigade with a massive gunline enough to give us at least some of Pasteur? Put another way, if the new German corps wiped out the Frenchmen on Pasteur -- why didn't the new French corps wipe out the Germans in Quatrepouts?

I understand that there's always going to be some things happening behind the GM screen - but I'm struggling to understand this decision. Even if you don't change the 1915 lines, at least help me understand what happened.

You are missing the part where Germans sent in an overwhelming force five hours ahead of French reinforcements and connected the gains made by us.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2017 07:18

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

thatbastardken posted:

haha wow, what a clusterfuck

towards the end i was getting a little despondent due to my grotesque losses, but otherwise it was a good time

Can't hear you over the sound of losing 4/4 brigades before breakfast.

steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Mar 5, 2017

# ¿ Mar 5, 2017 09:36

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

There's no way one side could have held an entire half of the map and keep it against a concentrated enemy push. The idea that Germans were impossible to dislodge and defeat once we reached St. C. hinges entirely on the notion that we would never leave that place and spend the rest of the game on localized defense. As long as we were going to actually leave the town and get moving, the advantage was gone and it was entirely up to French tactical acumen to do something about the situation.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2017 13:27

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Bacarruda posted:

Gyfcat Link

Here's what the Battle of Saint Croissant looked like (more or less) from the French side of the fighting.

Looking at it, a some things stand out to me.

The difficulty the French team faced. We were never going to get to Saint Croissant first and that set us up for a lot of futile charges. We got the best outcome reasonably possible: a draw/minor German win.

The French 6th Division's (thatbastardken) early engagement on the Eastern flank. The Germans were totally unready for a fight from that direction that early. Destroying the German 19th division (Steinrokkan) that early was a major coup.

The futility of the French attack on Saint Croissant. We threw three brigades into that fight. My 22nd Division sent the 98th (AbortRetryFail) and the 96th (Tehan) and the 6th Division sent the 54th (Hephasto). It wasn't enough. As I feared during the planning phase, we didn't commit enough front-line troops into that fight and had no reserves behind them to back up the assault. The men fought drat well, but sending guts against guns just leads to more guts...

The importance of Clemenceau ridge and the gunline arrayed there. The 99th Brigade (Loel) may not have had a glamorous job, but they did outstanding work anchoring our center and hammering the German center. By holding that hill, he let 22nd Division fight the good fight in the West.

The amount of German firepower against us was enormous, but used inconsistently. I was amazed at how much use they got out of their machine guns and how little use they got out of their heavy artillery.

The drat close-run thing on Dejeunner. Luck and skill work out in our favor on that one. If we'd lost that ridge, we'd have had unassailable German guns on the west and we'd have lost the battle. Special credit to the BEF (Hephasto) and the Hero of the Republic xthetenth for their gallant assault. And to the 175th Reserve Brigade (AbortRetryFail). I rolled the dice with sending them into the fray, and the roll paid off well. ARF cut off German reserves from reaching Dejeunner that might of turned the tide. One of the overlooked, but critical, plays of the game.

The futility of the cavalry assault on Saint Croissant. Looking at how weak the Germans were in the NW, I wish we'd been able to send those men to take La Sanglante Femme or further secure Faiblempot.

Again, these imagined difficulties are the result of your narrow focus, rather than of inherent problems with the scenario. As you can see from the events that transpired later in the day, it was up to French to merely pick a better time for their assault to entirely eviscerate the defenses. Both sides suffered a lot from not having any god drat patience at all.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2017 08:28

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Crazycryodude was right about a couple of things, but that doesn't mean we would magically have answers to all the problems if we listened.

We were able to won because of your blunder of sending in troops piecemeal to the objective, and simultaneously keeping a large force stationary just outside the reach of the same objective. While you won all the meeting engagements in the game, you totally whiffed on actually capitalizing on your success, and were strangely indecisive til the last moments.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2017 09:50

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Bacarruda posted:

To clear the air for a moment. Speaking for myself (and I think for the whole French team), this was a very fun game to play. Trin did a HUGE number of things right. The scale of the map and the relative force size was excellent. The speed of updates was great. I�m amazed at how fast Trin was able to process so many complex moves with basically no errors.

Trin created a scenario that passed the single biggest test of this kind of game: it was fun. I enjoyed it greatly and look forwards to the next time around.

But like every other red-blooded goon, I enjoy having a fighting chance at outright winning. And looking back on things, I do feel that, given the roads, the deployment zones and the objectives � the French team�s path to victory was fundamentally narrower than the German team�s.

Could the French have won? Sure. But to do so, the French had to pitch a perfect game in the face of some very real difficulties. The Germans had a much easier go of things.

Firstly, the location of the objectives heavily favored a team deploying in the NE corner of the map. The roads gave the German team a direct route to Saint Croissant.

Would anyone like to seriously dispute that getting the Saint Croissant first was not extremely advantageous to the Germans? And would anybody with a ruler and a map like to contend that the French could have the gotten there first?

Given the terrain, the French were going to have to assault Saint Croissant, while the Germans would have the luxury of defending it. And that is the crux of why this battle favored the Germans.

Secondly, there�s an imbalance between offense and defense inherent in c.1914 warfare. This is historical and it is one thing the Spearhead rules simulate extremely well. Whoever gets to strategic ground first will probably keep it.

A) Machine guns and heavy artillery are king at this point � and they are tools well-suited for the defense. The Germans, as they did in history, had more of both. That let them chop up every French infantry attack against them.

B) Urban terrain, wire, and entrenchments give the defender a big advantage. By getting to Saint Croissant first, the Germans could get into cover and concealment in town. Every hour the French spent waiting for a "better time" and marshaling a large-scale attack meant the Germans had more time to dig in, neutralizing the power of the French's limited MGs and 75mms to support such an attack.

C) Organization and communication favor the defender, not the attacker. In Spearhead, attackers have to create detailed and highly coordinated plans built on guesswork and exacting timetables. Defenders get to sit there and shoot.

I don't mind being the underdog. I just like knowing I'm the underdog beforehand, something I hope future games will be a little more open about. Unless this round was some kind of Kobiyashi Maru scheme on Trin's part.

The French had more units, and more mobile artillery. They would have been able to assault and conquer the town with a bit of more deliberation instead of the hasty half-hearted attack we saw. Similarly the Germans were forced to attack into poor terrain in pursuit of our main objective, but we did it, and would have won with a more reasonable strategy than just using whateve was on hand at the moment.

Finally, our mission was not to defend St. C., and as part of the tactical game, it was up to you to identify this and use it to your advantage. You attacked at the worst possible moment, and paid for it.

steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Mar 6, 2017

# ¿ Mar 6, 2017 19:23

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 13:17

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

As an independent observer I dare say the Germans were on the cusp of dominating the game.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2017 19:24

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