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So this is an offshoot of the K-12 Teaching Megathread posted here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3563040&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 After some discussion it was probably a good idea to split off some of the more political views and arguing of policy from the megathread that is more about the experiences and questions of being in education. Purpose: The idea behind this D&D thread is to debate the state of the US educational system. Since many of us participating in this thread are teachers or working in other positions in education, the main rule is Show Your Work! (real sources, not bullshit...APA citation not required) Topics: Some of the more popular topics to debate in education... 1. Systemic problems plaguing education (poverty, anti-intellectualism, religious morals, etc) 2. Charter schools, vouchers, and private education 3. Role of federal, state, and local governments on educational policy/funding 4. Goals and nature of education itself (standardization, Common Core, testing, college and career readiness, NCLB/RTTT/ESSA) 5. Role of schools (sports, health services, sex ed, childcare, etc) 6. Politicization of education (unions, school boards, administration, government officials, etc) 7. Curriculum 8. Myths of education and the educational workplace 9. Teachers (training, evaluation, autonomy, discipline of students, retention, etc) 10. Parents/students/communities 11. International comparisons to US education 12. Special education Reputable Resources: National Center for Educational Statistics - https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/ Educational Resources Information Center - https://eric.ed.gov/ Gallup Educational Polling Data - http://www.gallup.com/poll/1612/education.aspx Starting Topic: I come from a social studies background, so I'm going to start off with current events and the horrible waste of air that just got confirmed as the new secretary of education, Betsy DeVos. I'm not going to post a picture of her because honestly I don't need to as it haunts my dreams nightly as of late, just one step below Kellyanne Conway and a blender having a love child. So in the republican's wet dream of deconstructing the federal government as much as possible, Trump has nominated almost every single position with someone who despises the very departments they will be running. For the department of education, Trump chose a wealthy dilettante with zero experience in public education (never been in a public school, never graduated from a public school, never taught ever, never had her kids in public school, and only advocates for vouchers) to run the department. This is like asking a dog walker to run the military or a garbage can to run the department of energy. It's almost comical in a 'watch the world burn' kind of way, until we realize that they are loving with the entire country's children for their own laughs. Not a single one of these fuckers have taught in a low income school before and if I seem pretty pissed about it, it's because I am. I've spent the last ten years in education and I'm to the point where honestly I think it's going to take an entire states' worth of teachers striking to get the public to realize how bad it's getting in education at this point. Until teachers walk out and basically say 'gently caress you, fix it' I don't see anything changing for the better soon. .....and with that, let the chorus of teachers are just whiney bitches who need to shut up with their cushy rear end jobs begin... Oxphocker fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 04:53
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Cease to Hope posted:The Wall Street Journal ran an op-ed showcasing the narrative DeVos will soon be pushing: any resistance to school privatization and Christianization is the corrupt lazy teachers' unions trying to extract rent from a failing system. Yup... Just a side note on the public perception of teachers....how many out there would like to spend $80k on a college education, pay for all your own licensure/testing, to go into a job that starts off at around $35k with no bathroom breaks, buying your own work supplies, a guarantee that you have to keep going back to school to keep your job, work +60 hours/6 days a week, be poo poo on constantly (figuratively and sometimes literally), just to be told you're lazy? Sometimes I really want to stab some of these people because I know they wouldn't last a week in my job... Also, since we're talking about extracting rent out of the system, how about dispelling some myths of educational spending as well: http://www.vox.com/2015/3/25/8284637/school-spending-US And the testing bullshit: http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2012/11/29/13testcosts.h32.html quote:Standardized-testing regimens cost states some $1.7 billion a year overall, or a quarter of 1 percent of total K-12 spending in the United States, according to a new report on assessment finances. Oxphocker fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 05:07
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Part of the problem is the way we fund schools with local taxes. While it only accounts for approximately 20% of most districts budgets...the local tax portion is why schools in nicer areas can afford better things vs poor areas that have to run everything on a shoestring. It causes problems because those better off, already have better schools so they aren't going to vote for change and those who need it are often already disenfranchised to begin with. That is partially why the forced integration in the south was a federal directive because the local populations will never support it.
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Feb 9, 2017 13:51
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I have a masters plus 45 and soon I'll have an Ed.S. in educational administration. Now I've been one of the luckier ones when it comes to college costs: Undergrad: Northern Michigan University, B.S. Social Studies Education/History Education - Approximately $70k spent ($24k loans at graduation) MI Teaching License Fees/Tests - Approximately $500 IL Teaching License Fees/Tests - Approximately $500 Additional Cert: Northern IL University, Driver's Ed - $7500 NM Teaching License Fees/Tests - Approximately $200 Graduate: University of Texas Arlington, M.Ed Educational Leadership and Policy Studies - Approximately $10k (loans just paid off about a year ago) MN Teaching License Fees/Tests - Approximately $500 MN Additional Coursework to Match License Requirements - Approximately $700 Graduate: Saint Mary's University, Ed.S Educational Leadership (Principal and Superintendent) - Approximately $20k (still in class right now) MN Admin Licensure Fees - Approximately $1k (have yet to do) Total - Approximately $111k So far for teaching salary: 3 years NM 7th grade - $28k, 29k, 31k .5 year MN 8th grade - $28k 3 years part time MN 7-12 charter - $10k, 21k, 21k 3 years part time MN 7-12 charter admin - $45k, 30k 30k Total - Approximately 273k over 6.5 years equals 42k a year average for having almost short of a doctorate at this point. Subtracting educational investment equals 162k over 6.5 years, which is $25k a year average after investment... For all of that I work: 7:45-3:45 is my contract time = 8hrs Rarely do I get out of there before 5 most days...so let's round to 9.5 hrs because often times I get there before 7:45 due to unforeseen emergencies. (Like this morning at 6:15 when the bus was blowing cold air in below zero conditions and I went over there two blocks away in my pajamas to get a vehicle key for the driver) That's 47.5 hrs per week. Plus at least 3 hours minimum per week of other meetings like the board meetings, parent meetings, etc...so let's round to 50 for the sake of argument. Then I have grad work which is about 3 hours per week plus a 12 hour day in class every other Sat...so let's say that averages to 9 hours per week...up to 59 now... Then I have prep work for class which is usually from noon to 10pm for me on Sunday's (prepping three classes) so that's 10 hours per week...up to 69 now... I'm also on our teaching co-op board so add an hour per week of work, 70. I'm also on the city council to help represent the school so at least 1-3 hours per week for that, up to 73 hours. So that's 73 hours per week times 36 weeks of school for 2628 hours. Plus I work through the summer for at least 6 hours a day for at least 9 weeks so that adds, 270 hours for a total of 2898 hours in the year. Take my current salary of $51k and divided out that's $17.60 per hour for drat near having a doctorate. Plus the stress, no life, constantly on the go, etc... Anyone who says I'm not working hard enough gently caress themselves with a rusty spork. Oh that also doesn't include all the time I put in for free for events, tech support for the school, and 50% of an admin job that I do for no additional pay on my contract (admin is supposed to be $60k, I only get $30k). Yeah....I'm super loving lazy...
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Feb 10, 2017 02:02
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boner confessor posted:in the case of my school it wasn't budget cuts - all the new printers and a brand new computer lab to run them - but i went to a school district where money was effectively infinite. i think the administrators just wanted to buy some new stuff and also saw computer-related vocational tech as being more valuable than working with metal objects Typically it's state standards and initiatives that drive much of what happens. If state grants for tech programs are on the decline because the state legislature cuts funding for it, schools will slowly eliminate those programs because to do otherwise would mean dipping into general ed funds and most schools don't have that option. Much of this came about because of the NCLB focus on all students going to college which was a real slam to any programs not college bound. There has been a slight change with RTTT/ESSA, but it's going to take a lot of time to reclaim ground in that area because funding has been set so far back. While trade programs would be highly useful for lots of students who aren't college minded, there is a stigma in the US about these programs in much of the country because it isn't tech/medicine/research.... If we are being pragmatic the things every school should offer are: 1. Comprehensive Sex Ed 2. Consumer Finance/Economics 3. Basic Parenting Skills 4. Guidance/Health - basic mental/physical health and coping skills Yet in many places, you won't see any of these. Students are lacking even basic life skills. I'm seeing a lot of anxiety/depression students for things that are frankly very minor issues (oh noes, I have homework! dear god I have to go to class??? wha wha wha). Parents giving students unlimited technology without teaching any sort of moderation or self-discipline skills is ruining an entire generation of kids and making teaching much harder. It's unbelievable the amount of enabling that I deal with on a daily basis...
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Feb 10, 2017 04:46
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5. Role of schools (sports, health services, sex ed, childcare, etc) Frankly, I'm getting pretty disgusted how the public is expecting schools to serve in every role for students but at the same time hobble the system when they disagree with what the school is teaching. Sex ed is a good example. Comprehensive sex ed is a public health priority that could reduce many issues including STD transmission, pregnancies, etc...yet substantial portions of the country are doing abstinence only education, if at all. And for religious reasons...not even research verifiable reasons, it's blatantly because of religious beliefs. Never ceases to amaze me how the public wants schools to solve problems yet won't give us the ability to do so...
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Feb 13, 2017 00:37
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I've been watching where the new federal budget targets are going...so far it's not promising. They are looking to cut the NEA, NEH, CPB, Americorp and more. The Americorp part in particular is disturbing because it will cut all sorts of programs for schools including Math Corps tutors, Promise Fellows, and other tutor/mentor programs that are funded through Americorp. That's going to hit a lot of districts, especially rural/urban ones. So far the released memos indicate a very conservative plan for budgeting with increased spending to military and infrastructure...personally I think it's a load of BS. But for schools it's going to mean tighter budgets are ahead...
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Feb 18, 2017 18:18
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So it's only been ten days since this thread went up and 70% of voters think education is horribly hosed... I think it's very interesting to see how people are responding to this. It always seems to be that people are outraged about schools, yet anything to actually help them is just being soft on teachers, teacher's unions, insert latest conservative target here.... Can people really not put two and two together that by improving social services, dealing with poverty, and improving education....it would help the entire country? Instead people get roped into the doomsday media reporting that we need even more military spending when we already outspend the next 10 largest countries... totally boggles me...
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Feb 18, 2017 20:59
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Babylon Astronaut posted:I think a mandatory class on how to clean things and basic home maintenance would be great. Also, personal finance. I also think they should learn things for the sake of learning, like arts and the humanities. Really, your reading, writing, arithmetic does not need to be immediately applicable to anything to be a great help in life. You're learning empathy, critical thinking, and logical reasoning by studying these subjects. There are already classes like this in many schools...it's called Shop, and Home Ec, and Econ, and... and.. The hard part of this is that only large high schools are capable of funding such classes because until you get to around +400 students, you're really just trying to cover the basics and maybe a few extras. Certain types of classes are WAY more expensive to pull off because of space requirements, equipment, supplies, etc...like Shop and Home Ec, both are very specialized and expensive to have without charging fees (which a lot of students can't afford). The second problem to this is finding licensed teachers to fill those positions...Industrial tech and Home Ec teachers are really hard to find because there's not a lot of programs that offer those degrees anymore and most people don't want to go into them because job options are limited. So when schools post for an opening, they are lucky to get 1-2 people applying and often times it's older teachers who wanted to retire like 5 years ago, but want to keep these programs running because they believe in the value. The last problem is exactly what was mentioned, "Your goal wouldn't be to make a boring horrible class." yeah...with some kids you could be in a handstand with your hair on fire and they would say they are still bored and that you're the worst teacher ever. Much of the issue has to do with society's view of education...that it's supposed to be entertainment. Getting educated actually takes some effort and yet teachers are considered horrible if they don't get 100% engagement? There needs to be a wholesale shift on the attitude about education and we've seen examples of this, in this very thread: quote:Looking back on college, I have to say there is some truth in the "lazy teacher" myth. It's an anecdotal sampling, obviously, but let's be academic and call it "ethnography". So for one...you're talking about college, not elementary/secondary school. In college, it's not their job to be your entertainment. Come to think of it, that applies to elem/secondary...but that's another thing. Next, anecdotal isn't evidence...for all we know, you're a douchebag of a student and it's just your skewed perception being relayed to try and make a point? Though I do agree that there's a range of engagement in any career, education is no exception to that and I remember teachers and professors that I wasn't impressed with. However, I also know that +90% of how I did was because of my own actions...not that of the teacher. There are only a few examples I can think of that I could clearly pin on the instructor - had a professor that taught American Government, worked on a city council, so you would think it would be good? However, he had zero instructional skill, talked the whole time about stories on the city council but it had nothing to do with what he tested on so there was a complete disconnect and no way to study on what was actually going to be tested. I truly don't think it's a case of 'teachers are bad'. I think that's been way overblown by a population expecting entitlement and a media that only conveys bad stories about teachers, which really ends up being less than 1% and probably isn't any different than any other profession. Plus the idea that teaching is somehow easier to get into and get through...I'd really be curious to see if the people saying that have actually gone through the process themselves or if they are just parroting the popular perception? It's a lot more involved than most realize and it's no surprise we're seeing less people going into education and more people leaving the profession early because the economics of it don't make sense. The job conditions, pay, and public treatment of teachers is insane and lots of people see the reality of it and leave the profession because it's not worth the abuse. I have a coworker that took a teaching job in China, only teaches half the day and it making twice what he was making here. Can't blame him for taking the job... Personally, I'm looking to eventually transition to a district position in school business/operations because I'm tired of having no life and making crap wages for the amount of time I'm putting in. I love teaching and helping students, but that only goes so far and I'm getting to the point of burning out because I'm working multiple jobs for the school on half pay just to make the budget work out. It's not sustainable to ask anyone to do that for long. The greatest example of this is just recently with DeVos being named education secretary...it really goes to show where the values are being placed when someone who is for privatizing education is now leading the public education system. In talking to my cohort members at different districts, they are all seeing the same things - fewer applicants, smaller budgets, more data collection and reporting, less support for basic programs, etc. It's pitting districts against each other for enrollment and not actually solving any of the issues that are mostly driven by poverty. Reading from my alumni newsletter where the fundraising foundation was able to fund +100k of new equipment and then some while I'm working at a school that is barely staying open...you can't say that there isn't inequity in the system that is causing many of these problems. Yet, the Gallup poll says the highest concern is getting better teachers? Heh... 
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Feb 19, 2017 17:50
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silence_kit posted:When you post stuff like this, you are undermining a lot of the rest of what you post in this thread. America spends more money on education per student than almost all first world countries, but isn't doing that well in a lot of the education metrics. Does this mean that increasing education funding will not actually noticeably improve student outcomes? Should the US be spending more money on expanding other parts of its welfare state instead of spending more money on teachers and schools? Not really...the approach that US education has taken since 2001 is that of accountability and competition amongst schools. It's applying the same ideas that the business world uses of forcing innovation in a sink or swim environment without realizing that there are some major flaws to that philosophy (schools don't get to choose their products and they aren't allowed to charge what it would really take to change things). Personally I think it's a conservative plan to privatize public schools into areas that can afford it and schools that are basically left to rot...because 'social Darwinism am I rite guyz...hurr hurr'. In comparing US schools to schools around the world there are several factors to weigh: 1. What kind of social safety net does the society have? (Finland would be the top example of this, by creating policies around equity, they ensure everyone is on equal footing with basic needs taken care of, if the US had a social safety net like Finland we'd go from about 25th in the world to about 6th. I've read several studies where they account for the income disparity and it's very eye opening exactly how damaging that is to US education) 2. How much does the society value education? (This is where many Asian countries like China, Korea, and Japan surpass the US, because there is societal/family pressure to do well in school and not dishonor the family. The downside is that it creates a rote memorization system that limits creative thinking which is where many US schools excel) 3. How are teachers treated as professionals? (Again another area where Finland excels is treating teachers as actual professionals with the support, pay, and conditions to go along with it. US teachers put in way more classtime than Fins do and yet are burning out much faster because there is no time to do the job well because we keep cramming more people in with less time to work with them.) So long story short...we're not spending enough on education, but it's in the way we are spending that needs to be looked at. Social safety nets need to be more comprehensive to ensure children are not in poverty and not able to meet basic needs in order to even have a decent shot in school. The schools themselves need to stop spending millions on useless testing and actually plow those funds back into teaching staffs so they can actually do a good job. Instead we're pitting school against each other to fight for enrollment and expecting them to do more with less and less...it's not a winning combination.
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Feb 19, 2017 18:58
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http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2012/04/how-much-teachers-affect-student.htmlquote:Alexander notes that Goldhaber and his colleagues have concluded is that "that around 9 percent of variation in student achievement is due to teacher characteristics. About 60 percent of variation is explainable by individual student characteristics, family characteristics, and such variables. All school input combined (teacher quality, class variables, etc.) account for approximately 21 percent of student outcomes." So even though teachers are the most important school-based factor in student achievement (however you measure it), a teacher's influence pales in comparison to factors from outside the school. So now you can explain to me the logic of how student testing and observations should count 100% of a teacher's evaluation for effectiveness when teachers, even the best ones, account for less than 10 percent of student achievement. I've seen different numbers in different reports...but generally around 30% of student effectiveness is from schools with 15% being a good district with good leadership and 15% being effective teachers. So at best, only about 30% comes from the schools themselves. The remaining 70% is all the outside factors like home life, mental illnesses, poverty, etc. So as others pointed out, it's actually a combination of factors that are involved...not just a single one. So simply saying we keep throwing money at schools and/or we spend more than most countries for no effect is kinda inaccurate because it's WHERE we are spending the money and HOW. Standardized testing alone costs over 1.7 Billion per year - http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2012/11/29/13testcosts.h32.html For something that doesn't really help us improve on education. Finland doesn't even bother with testing the majority of the time because they are putting that money into equity instead of standardizing.
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Feb 20, 2017 00:30
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:Anything else just breeds the kind of anti-intellectualism we see in modern American society. Sadly, it's not just a modern thing... there's been a strong anti-intellectualism streak in American society going all the way back to the pilgrims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life
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Feb 20, 2017 00:32
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Manufacturing isn't the only trade... There are lots of viable jobs for electricians, plumbers, millwrights, welders, etc that can be very high paying in relation to education level. A multi year paid internship leading to a +$60k job is very obtainable for many students who would otherwise be pushed into a 2 or 4 year degree in general studies that wouldn't help them get a job... We don't have to start tracking ala German style at age 12... it could be as simple as starting in 10th grade to offer different tracks in preparation for a variety of fields including: practical arts (auto, shop, home ec, etc), fine arts (music, arts, languages, etc), college track, and top tier college track (AP, etc). Based on scores, aptitude, grades, personality, interests, etc...it would be maximizing their own interests with classes actually geared toward what they might want. But in a lot of places, the trades classes were slowly choked off because of the whole 'everyone goes to college' thing.
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Feb 20, 2017 01:50
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Lightning Knight posted:The poor will get stupider than the rich and the rich will enjoy obedient, unquestioning children. Not exactly... the conservative playbook for schools is to apply the same sort of business thinking that the Chicago School of Economics suggests (free trade solves everything and get government regulation out of it). The voucher and school choice fight is the exact same thing. Supposedly the thought is that by being able to choose schools, parents and students can force 'bad' schools to change or lose so many students that they can't operate anymore while 'good' schools will gain enrollment. To business people this seems to make sense on the surface...except there are several factors they aren't taking into consideration: 1. Kids aren't widgets - businesses get to choose their product and when something is defective or poor quality, they send it back. Schools can't operate that way. The only ones that do are private schools. I worked at a private school once and they very clearly stated that if a student on an IEP wanted to come to the school, there were no services for them so they joined knowing they were on their own there. That will end up happening more and more if private schools start getting voucher money...either non-IEP students will drain out of the public system creating an over representation in the remaining public schools or IEP students will not be getting any services in the private schools. It will harm the students who need the help the most while benefitting very few because even the private schools are not going to be able to absorb the numbers of public students. 2. How do you qualify 'good' vs 'bad'? Test scores? Sports programs? 'Nice and easy' teachers? I'm sorry, but schools aren't fast food...you don't just go up to the counter and place your order. Schools are institutions that are being treated as if the customer is always right and it's really making the job of education much more difficult. Helicopter parents, apathetic parents, parents who will game the system, and so on...it's become more about what you can get out of the system as opposed to actually following the program because sometimes adversity and not getting your way all the time is actually a lesson unto itself. What this means for schools is a slippery slope of competition to maintain enrollment where actual hard academics will be in schools only where they don't have to worry about enrollment ever and all the other schools will be fighting over just maintaining. To do that funds will have to be diverted to more 'fun' things just to keep kids there. It's something I deal with all the time working at a small charter...we're the closest 7-12 school for 30 miles, yet there are a lot of students who travel farther to the larger schools because of sports, even though paradoxically if we had enough students we would be able to offer sports as well. 3. Well what about charters? Right now I work for a charter...but I've worked for public and private schools. Overall I'm 50/50 on charters because I think there are some that are out there for the right reasons, but many of them aren't. The whole concept of charters in kind of pointless if the various states had allowed more lab and magnet schools to be created. The tradeoff is for less regulation, there is supposed to be increased performance...but data shows it's a mixed bag. Overall charters do no better than regular public schools (yeah, there are some cherry picked examples, but we're talking aggregate here). So really it just creates a fake competition among schools that didn't need to be there in the first place and distracts from the real issues like poverty (notice I keep bringing it back to poverty). The business model doesn't care about any of that. It's all about trying to 'prove' their way is right and to show those evil teacher's unions that they shouldn't have a say in this because they are just public employees (yet forgetting that states with strong teachers unions are generally doing better than those without...). It's a political dick waving contest sadly, with kids being used as the poker chips.
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Feb 20, 2017 16:03
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Shbobdb posted:This seems to be the major problem though, because the current system is treating kids like a uniform commodity where there is a single clear desired end. I would say that's a symptom of the standardized testing movement. When you start attaching high stakes to educational outcomes in reading, math, and science...policy wise it is going to shift resources away from all the other areas to those that are tested only. As a social studies teacher, I've seen it happen to ss being relegated to a second rate core subject that is often supporting reading instead of the focus being on critical thinking skills, primary document analysis, and civic education. The electives and other areas get hit even harder because when the budget runs short, they are the first ones on the chopping block usually because core tested areas have to come first. Then the schedule gets changed around and intervention classes are put in place to catch up the students falling behind. Even back in the 1990s, you would have seen a lot more flexibility to class choices when high stakes wasn't attached.
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Feb 20, 2017 20:30
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If you read Ruby's Payne's A Framework for Understanding Poverty...it's an interesting look at how school is approached differently by low income, middle income, and high income. High income, college is mostly about maintaining social networks and traditions (ala Yale, Harvard, etc) so that the connections are there for post school employment...like heading up someone's business or getting a high managerial position with little/no experience. Also access to the shadow job market, positions that never get posted because they are filled by contacts before open posting. Middle income, college is mostly about improving place in society. This is the stereotypical American Dream reasoning behind colleges being a step up to a professional job. Networks are based on more traditional means like job fairs and local contacts. Low income, college is a mostly unattainable idea mostly because of the barrier of cost. Typically, more common would be a 2 year or tech program. They are lacking the soft skills and networks to access higher education or better jobs in the market.
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Feb 21, 2017 02:26
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Huzanko posted:Does anyone know why they even introduced standardized testing? It's so loving stupid and is just national dickmeasuring. Originally standardized testing was supposed to be a diagnostic tool to help schools identify areas where students were struggling or if curriculum wasn't lining up with state standards. Until NCLB however, high stakes accountability wasn't a factor in testing. Post NCLB, now testing could mean sanctions from the state otherwise the state could lose their federal funding. So this is where the AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress) part came into play. So instead of being a diagnostic, it was now the measuring stick that all schools are being held to. That's a vastly different purpose than what those tests were originally designed for. Standardized testing by itself isn't evil and can actually help some school identify where they are struggling...but politicians getting their hands on it has been terrible for education. Again, applying the same business style solutions to education like I was talking about previously.
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Feb 21, 2017 14:08
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Hawkgirl posted:But she caved so extra gently caress her. "Transgender students are important, but not as important as my job." gently caress that. I guess when you pay +$200mil to buy a high government office, things like ethical behavior are moot...
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Feb 26, 2017 19:13
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http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/education/strong-principals-make-a-difference/article_09697133-49da-55d1-932f-e2110f0ad4a1.html Thoughts on the article?
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Mar 13, 2017 22:07
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Kaysette posted:good admins are so essential at the K-12 level. You're doing God's work, Ox. Yeah I dunno... am I a super teacher/admin? No, not really...I'm competent but I'm no Ron Clark. The problem is that the need levels are so high, we need those extra support people to take on tasks that really outside organizations should be dealing with. The amount of work I do as superintendent/principal/teacher/tech support/driver/handyman/etc is impossible to sustain for any long amount of time. It just leads to burnout and putting out fires on a day to day basis. You can't actually get good at your job, because it's just keeping the door open most of the time as opposed to actually having the time to spend on things that really matter. It's a catch-22 in many ways. By the way, an easy way to help your local district is to sign up for smile.amazon.com and see if your schools are listed as a donation recipient. If they are, any purchases you make through smile.amazon.com will donate a portion of your order to the school. For simply buying poo poo like you normally would, you can help out. If your local school doesn't, then you should contact someone there to let them know about this. At my tiny rear end school, we still average about $30 a quarter that we put back into school supplies and things like that. And if anyone wants to set my school as their donation recipient, please PM me...I'd rather not broadcast it to an entire forum because internet detectives...
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Mar 16, 2017 06:15
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From a legal perspective it's going to make it a lot harder for schools because parents are going to be expecting 'the Cadillac' of services when schools don't have the resources for that. Also there is probably going to be a challenge to what 'reasonably ambitious' means. We actually talked about this in my legal issues class last Sat.
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Apr 3, 2017 12:54
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Well and the other angle on this is that there is an entire profit industry centered around taking advantage of people trying to get an education. What I think really needs to happen is a government loan system that is indexed to major and region of the country where a certain amount of loan is guaranteed at a low rate (1-3%) but not to exceed what the typical earning capacity of that degree is. Anything beyond that, you have to go seeking a private loan that is not government backed and then you have to deal with all the risk of the market and lenders would have to be more discriminating as to lending those amounts out to high risks. It promotes accountability for all while still not screwing over students who are trying to better their situations. I've never liked that much of this seems to be about making money off of students as opposed to providing a public good for the whole country. Personally I graduated with $24k in loan debt 12 years ago and I'm still paying on about 8k of it. But I was one of the luckier ones in that my undergrad loan was only 2.8% at the time. But my grad loans are at 6.8% and I've already paid down 9k from my masters and I'll have about 15k from my Ed.S. once it's done. I started teaching making 28k seven years ago and currently make 51k as a part time admin/part time teacher... add to that a car loan, mortgage, and basic living expenses and I'm living within my means...but I don't go anywhere, I don't party, I work like 6-7 days a week, cook mostly at home, and I'm responsible with my money. Is it a rock star life? No, of course not...but there's a misperception out there like that photography student example of expecting no trade-offs or consequences to life choices. It's very frustrating to watch people expecting life to just hand them an awesome career on a platter and then bitch to the ends of the earth when it doesn't turn out that way. Statistically people are better off going into accounting than almost anything else, but businesses are always looking for finance people because so few people go into it. I went into education because I really do care about it, but I do find myself wondering if it was the right choice. That's part of the reason I started getting into administration because the cost/reward of teaching in many cases isn't really worth it unless you can get into a nice well funded district that isn't dealing with meltdowns all the time. If I transition to working as a business manager for a district I could be making 60-110k and not dealing with any of the headaches of the classroom...
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Apr 29, 2017 17:06
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Lots of details missing there...but unless she's getting like +4 hours of work a night to do, honestly people need to grow up a bit. It's amazing how much the bar has slid in many places to like right now where I struggle getting kids to do a single assignment per week in class. Much of what I end up seeing is only justified laziness or learned helplessness..
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May 2, 2017 01:32
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Teachers have really strong unions and probably the best nominal work hours of any profession. But then an expectation to do 50% or more of their work "on their own time" and to spend a ton of their own money on work. And it always feels like attitudes on homework by teachers is informed by teacher's own really weird work situation. Like if teaching somehow in the future settled on being an 8 hour a day and then go home job I bet attitudes on homework would quickly mirror that idea. First off... gently caress you. You're exactly part of the problem when it comes to the education system right now. "omg, teachers have it sooo easy, lol" Get bent is what I say. Best nominal hours? Have you ever actually taught a class in your life? Imagine going the majority of the day where you can't even take a bathroom break because you can't leave the room or the kids alone. Imagine coming in early to prep and leaving late to grade and using your prep for meetings and whatever else you can do so you don't have to take it home until 10pm each night. Imagine a profession where you have to keep going back year after year for additional education just to keep your job and your work doesn't pay for the costs but you do out of your own pocket. Imagine having to buy all your supplies out of your own pocket because the district doesn't have the funds for it. Anyone who wants to say teaching in the US is a cush job can go suck a dick. The only teachers in the US that have it good are the ones in really well off public and private schools where they can actually afford poo poo. It pisses me off to no end, the number of people who have ZERO loving CLUE what it's actually like to teach day after day...dealing with whiney overmedicated, phone addicted, bitchy kids who are only looking for the path of least resistance and their loving clueless enabling parents who think they know what teachers are supposed to be doing when they've never taught a day in their life...but OH NO! I know MY kid! Bullshit...your kid acts completely differently around you and when you aren't there and I wish everyday I could just film them and show it to you like an episode of cops so you could see the actual reality. So again, gently caress you.  ...that being said, I think a lot of the reality regarding the problem is that we have completely removed any sort of accountability/responsibility from students and parents in the educational system. Teachers are expected to be miracle workers and 100% responsible for a lifetime of setbacks, poverty, etc when in reality many times we are busting our asses daily trying to make even the smallest impact for some of these kids. I would love to have a flipped classroom design for my social studies classes...but I can't get the kids to do the basic prep work needed in order for that to work out. I've been working at a charter school the last three years where we started out completely 100% project based on the student interests...for the majority of kids, nothing got done. If students don't have an innate drive to want to pursue educational projects, even with staff there helping and guiding them...your only alternative is a more traditional model. We tried scaffolding, creating pre-made projects that were just plug and play, even walking groups through a single project and it was like pulling teeth to just get the smallest amount of work from students even when they had all that choice. Most just choose to opt-out and not do anything. We had a few exceptions, but by far the majority were failing badly. Then we stated some more traditional teaching to get them caught up on credits and now our scores are going up and kids are getting closer to meeting credits for the year. Are they as happy about it? No of course not...we're actually forcing them to do more work now which in their eyes is horrible because something is actually being expected of them. The learned helplessness, lack of coping skills, lack of social skills, reliance on technology, and enabling parents/society are killing US education and making it's impossible for teachers to make progress in a lot of schools right now. I teach 7-12th grade right now and in my classes, they have 1 assignment per WEEK on average and I have trouble getting that from them. They can use their notes on the tests and yet average like 70% at best. In my classes, if you turn in all the work...even it's not all the best, you'll probably still pass and I have kids fail even that because they can't be bothered to turn it in despite in class time, everything being accessible on drive 24/7, my being available throughout the day, and basically doing everything except moving the pencil myself. I'm extremely lenient on grading and even accept work from the whole block all the way up to the last day. I modify heavily for SpEd students on top of all of that. Yet, I still get people like you who think I'm not doing enough... Yeah....teachers are the ones at fault here 
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May 3, 2017 02:26
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First off, hate to burst your anecdotal bubble...but I'm in rural MN. I also taught in IL, MI, WI, NM, and New Zealand... I've been in urban, rural, and suburban schools. I've been in private, public, and charter. In all those different environments, I've learned just how much socio-economics really shape an area. Try reading Ruby Payne's A Framework for Understanding Poverty. Probably one the best books on the topic and she even explores the roots of motivation in a socio-economic context. Long story short...a significant section of US society doesn't value education at all and it's reflected in the values and attitudes displayed in schools across the country. Until we start to change that mindset, things won't get better on the larger scale because we will keep going through ten rounds of, 'teachers just need to be less lazy in their cush jobs' until people realize that sitting in a desk as a student is nothing like actually teaching.
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May 3, 2017 03:00
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Hastings posted:I would be okay with up to 30 kids, but preferably 20-25. The "check in" days could have the first 15 meet with the teacher and the second group the next day. Also then, you'd have to consider setting aside certain days for the kids to show final presentations and such. Having been in that situation for 2 years, I can say that anything more than 15-20 is unmanageable. Also it's incredibly difficult where you have to be an expert in everything and you're essentially leading 20 separate lessons all day long. It's really hard to teach the basic skills everyone needs and if anyone comes in less than grade level, it's incredibly difficult. You're describing the basis of a lot of Project Based Learning methods. At the secondary level, it's a lot like being an elementary teacher for secondary students. It also doesn't line up very well with the modern standardized movement and testing...we end up with a lot of seniors who have gaps because their projects don't hit everything.
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May 3, 2017 12:52
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Accretionist posted:Any strong opinions on relaxing GED test-eligibility requirements? The program requires you to be 16+ and not enrolled in high school with states being able to add restrictions. Hell no. If anything it should be hard to pass. Way too often we see people choosing the path of least resistance and being able to just test out of school is a terrible idea because while someone might be intellectually capable of cramming for a test, it doesn't mean that have the emotional/mental maturity or life skills to be successful out in the adult world. Sadly, people rarely realize that schools are more than just math, English, social studies, science, etc...it's also about learning social skills and life skills to be a productive member of society.
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May 8, 2017 01:10
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