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King Possum III posted:No, it's well known that he despises gay people, and the conversion therapy thing is only one example. His track record as governor of IN is ample proof he's every bit as homophobic as Cruz or Huckabee. Yeah, absolutely, it seems like he wanted gay people to flat out die not get conversion, which is why the quote is weird, like the idea he wants gay conversion was the charitable interpretation and it seems like he just wanted to convert them into being not alive anymore. Like "pence wants gay conversion camps" always seems like a weird thing that softened his position from his actual position.
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Feb 21, 2017 01:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Yeah, absolutely, it seems like he wanted gay people to flat out die not get conversion, which is why the quote is weird, like the idea he wants gay conversion was the charitable interpretation and it seems like he just wanted to convert them into being not alive anymore. Like "pence wants gay conversion camps" always seems like a weird thing that softened his position from his actual position. The evangelical whackadoodles whose support Trump and the other GOP candidates sought (and received) during the campaigns haven't gone away. They helped get this administration elected, and they expect to be rewarded. These are the folks who want to put gays into camps ringed with razor wire and guard towers. I worry that Pence would happily indulge them and the other bigots who've become more vocal since the election. I might lose the right to marry my boyfriend while Trump's in the White House, but President Pence wouldn't stop the people who'd cut my throat at the first opportunity.
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Feb 21, 2017 02:23
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Wait, did people think me saying Pence would help rapturize the States means I think that he's literally going to call down the antichrist or some poo poo? I meant he won't back away from and possibly encourage brinksmanship because who cares, the Rapture, and that the fact that he has a calm facade doesn't mean he's actually a rational internationalist statesman.
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Feb 21, 2017 02:27
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Another reason that Pence would probably step down is if there are any possible charges or prison time against Trump. The reality is that it's probably best to just pardon Trump as a gesture of healing. But Ryan would be much more well positioned to do that than Pence who potentially benefited from Trump's hypothetical crimes. But to be clear, it would also be Paul Ryan's hopes and dreams being destroyed by becoming President which is really the best case scenario.
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Feb 21, 2017 04:44
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Yeah I don't think you guys get how much of a big-loving deal impeachment would be. It's literally never happened before. The GOP/Pence would be forced to govern more towards the center because any scenario where impeachment happens is one where Dem's are likely poised to make/ have already made significant congressional gains and have an incredibly fired up base that just watched history happen and feel that it was in part due to their actions (protesting, activism, etc. Whether or not this would be true, people would sure as hell feel like it was), as well as a more engaged public generally. Meanwhile the GOP base is either depressed or in full-on civil war mode or both. No one is saying Pence doesn't want to be a right wing ideologue, but a situation where his running mate just became the first sitting president to be fully impeached would pretty much force him to govern as generic republican.
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Feb 21, 2017 12:33
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I'd like to think that the idea of "let's pardon this criminal president in the spirit of healing" is as dead as the idea of bipartisanship. I would have to think that if Trump did something SO bad and illegal that the GOP in congress actually impeached him, it would be political suicide to let him get away with it.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Feb 21, 2017 |
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Feb 21, 2017 13:26
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themrguy posted:Yeah I don't think you guys get how much of a big-loving deal impeachment would be. It's literally never happened before. uhhhh?
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Feb 21, 2017 13:41
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I assumed that meant impeached and convicted leading to a removal from office.
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Feb 21, 2017 13:50
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:uhhhh? There has never been a successful impeachment in the history of the USA. Andrew Jackson and Bill Clinton were both acquitted by the Senate, Richard Nixon resigned before the process could even get started.
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Feb 21, 2017 13:57
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Impeachment is the process of bringing charges so both Clinton and Jackson were impeached. The votes to convict failed in congress.
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Feb 21, 2017 14:07
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Andrew Jackson was never impeached, how have two different posters gotten this wrong already?
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Feb 21, 2017 14:15
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Sorry my bad I meant Andrew Johnson. Should have looked it up.
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Feb 21, 2017 14:26
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People should have different names if they don't want to be confused!
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Feb 21, 2017 15:02
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Pence coming in in 2018 would not be so bad. Most Presidents can't get much done past the first year anyway and Trump being removed creates chaos in replacing Cabinet/NSC ppl that Pence doesn't want there as well as angering GOP base and giving Dems something to hang on GOP during an off year cycle. Biggest risk is that Lifestyle Libs will look at Pence and say "oh good a REASONABLE bigot" and stay home in 2018.
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Feb 21, 2017 15:25
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Wang_Tang posted:
MoM president
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Feb 21, 2017 15:53
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Radish posted:I'd like to think that the idea of "let's pardon this criminal president in the spirit of healing" is as dead as the idea of bipartisanship. I would have to think that if Trump did something SO bad and illegal that the GOP in congress actually impeached him, it would be political suicide to let him get away with it. What makes it plausible is that it's a no-win situation for either party. Trump going to court would be like the OJ Trial. It would last a long time and eclipse the news. Like OJ, you would also have a lot of people galvanized to support the accused. It benefits both parties to just move on. I think we need to be realistic. Under the current climate, there is most likely only one thing that is getting Trump impeached: Strong evidence of Collusion with Russia. In that case, Trump isn't being impeached, he's resigning. Because like I said, literally nobody wants to actually put the President on trial. So, I think the really most likely way Trump doesn't finish his term is through Nixon like resignation. The problem is that it's Trump. He'll resign, but he's also not going to shut his mouth. He'll maintain the premise of innocence despite whatever evidence exists and a poo poo ton of people will believe him. If he resigns then the Republicans also get to wash their hands with nobody having to actually take responsibility for pushing him out. But like Nixon, you can still get him on Federal charges, in this case, treason. This brings a huge issue of what if the trial finds Trump not guilty. Imagine a hypothetical where Trump pulls a Nixon and resigns to avoid impeachment proceedings, gets charged on a Federal level, goes through trial, and is found not guilty. Even with how unlikely it is, it would be absolutely devastating. And listen, this is all silly politics fan fiction, so whatever. But the Democrats aren't taking impeachment seriously right now not because there aren't grounds, but because letting Trump's presidency run its course might be less damaging in the long-term. I think the same logic carries over if Trump were to ever face criminal charges. It might be the just thing, but it's not the right move.
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Feb 21, 2017 17:34
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think we need to be realistic. Under the current climate, there is most likely only one thing that is getting Trump impeached: Strong evidence of Collusion with Russia. Why would this get him impeached? The Republicans love Russia now, why would he get in trouble for colluding with our soon-to-be ally?
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Feb 21, 2017 17:39
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The current GOP congress logic on Russia is: we won't open any investigations into Russian influence until we already have absolute proof that it occurred. Which is a pretty solid thought process!
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Feb 21, 2017 19:05
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themrguy posted:Yeah I don't think you guys get how much of a big-loving deal impeachment would be. It's literally never happened before. The GOP/Pence would be forced to govern more towards the center because any scenario where impeachment happens is one where Dem's are likely poised to make/ have already made significant congressional gains and have an incredibly fired up base that just watched history happen and feel that it was in part due to their actions (protesting, activism, etc. Whether or not this would be true, people would sure as hell feel like it was), as well as a more engaged public generally. Meanwhile the GOP base is either depressed or in full-on civil war mode or both. "This is a totally unprecedented situation, therefore I can predict the outcome of this situation with total certainty" 
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Feb 21, 2017 20:45
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Helsing posted:"This is a totally unprecedented situation, therefore I can predict the outcome of this situation with total certainty" I think it's less "this has never happened before, who knows what will happen!?" and more "BECAUSE this has never happened before (if an actual conviction happens), probably poo poo will be so hosed up in general coming out of the impeachment/conviction/removal from office that Pence isn't going to be in a position to freely impose his dominionist will on the American people. If the government reaches the point where even the GOP is generally like, poo poo we gotta get Trump out of here before he does something even worse, all the stuff up to that 'even worse' threshold would probably need to be cleaned up before Pence could start swinging for the gay conversion camp fences, if he wanted to, and by that point it's probably election season again anyway.
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Feb 21, 2017 21:29
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"My fellow Americans, "today the evil Soros-paid liberals have managed to cowardly stab our beloved President in the back. President Trump has been forced to resign because of some technicality exploited by partisan obstructionists. "But do not despair! Even if the person was removed, the mandate was not. We will still make America Great Again. To this effect, I have already passed an executive order criminalizing the foul practice of sodomy, as well as the teaching of blasphemous evolution, and several other things that were biblically immoral." --President Pence
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Feb 21, 2017 21:44
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xeria posted:I think it's less "this has never happened before, who knows what will happen!?" and more "BECAUSE this has never happened before (if an actual conviction happens), probably poo poo will be so hosed up in general coming out of the impeachment/conviction/removal from office that Pence isn't going to be in a position to freely impose his dominionist will on the American people. If the government reaches the point where even the GOP is generally like, poo poo we gotta get Trump out of here before he does something even worse, all the stuff up to that 'even worse' threshold would probably need to be cleaned up before Pence could start swinging for the gay conversion camp fences, if he wanted to, and by that point it's probably election season again anyway. Yeah, the circumstances that would lead to a Trump impeachment are also circumstances that would likely lead to forcing Pence to reign himself in. A scenario where Trump, and by association Pence, is popular enough to let Pence go full throttle with eradicating sin from the land, and where Trump gets impeached doesn't make a lot of sense. To put it another way, I don't see impeachment happening, evidence be damned, unless Trump falls below 30% for a sustained period of time, and in that case the GOP is in survival mode, not ideologue mode. That being said, I don't think it's gonna happen, but I didn't think he was gonna be president so welp.
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Feb 21, 2017 23:45
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themrguy posted:in that case the GOP is in survival mode The best defense is a good offense.
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Feb 22, 2017 00:40
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Helsing posted:Some of the things people are saying in this thread are so stupid that they remind me of that ancient D&D thread from 2002 or 2003 where people were encouraged to write their predictions about how the Iraq War would turn out. 
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Feb 22, 2017 12:37
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That quote is a good reminder for people. Trump isn't that far off from a bog standard Republican. And he's got big boots to fill when it comes to being the worst president in recent memory, much less ever.
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Feb 22, 2017 17:09
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Trump reminds me a lot of Rob Ford, a mayor who was despised by the elite of his own city not based on his policies but based specifically on how much he embarrassed them. I think a lot of people are sublimating their embarrassment about Trump by concocting implausible story-lines about how Pence wouldn't be as bad. xeria posted:I think it's less "this has never happened before, who knows what will happen!?" and more "BECAUSE this has never happened before (if an actual conviction happens), probably poo poo will be so hosed up in general coming out of the impeachment/conviction/removal from office that Pence isn't going to be in a position to freely impose his dominionist will on the American people. If the government reaches the point where even the GOP is generally like, poo poo we gotta get Trump out of here before he does something even worse, all the stuff up to that 'even worse' threshold would probably need to be cleaned up before Pence could start swinging for the gay conversion camp fences, if he wanted to, and by that point it's probably election season again anyway. Thinking you know exactly how a totally unprecedented and inherently chaotic situation will turn out is really stupid.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:06
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Helsing posted:Trump reminds me a lot of Rob Ford, a mayor who was despised by the elite of his own city not based on his policies but based specifically on how much he embarrassed them. And yet he was canonized on his death.
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Feb 22, 2017 22:07
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Helsing posted:Trump reminds me a lot of Rob Ford, a mayor who was despised by the elite of his own city not based on his policies but based specifically on how much he embarrassed them. I think a lot of people are sublimating their embarrassment about Trump by concocting implausible story-lines about how Pence wouldn't be as bad. Pence is an opportunist with the moral backbone of a slug who plays at good old fashioned values. He's a wretched human being. So is most of congress, so was W, and so was Reagan. But for a lot of people, Trump is a danger not just in terms of bad policy but in terms of actively eroding the American system. And you can say a bunch of poo poo about how our system is not very democratic to begin with but the fact is there has never been a President in the history of the United States where a fear of not giving up power if the time comes in 2020 seems so great. An impeachment will not be half as damaging than a President refusing to leave office or seven years of Pence.
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Feb 24, 2017 02:38
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Timeless Appeal posted:shows open admiration for President Jackson who openly disdained the judicial branch. He also actively defied them in order to enact racist policy!
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Feb 24, 2017 02:39
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Lightning Lord posted:He also actively defied them in order to enact racist policy!
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Feb 24, 2017 02:59
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Timeless Appeal posted:And you can say a bunch of poo poo about how our system is not very democratic to begin with but the fact is there has never been a President in the history of the United States where a fear of not giving up power if the time comes in 2020 seems so great. An impeachment will not be half as damaging than a President refusing to leave office or seven years of Pence. It's a ridiculous fear to begin with. A president can't refuse to leave office. The only way that could happen is if he carries out a literal military coup.
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Feb 24, 2017 07:44
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Main Paineframe posted:It's a ridiculous fear to begin with. A president can't refuse to leave office. The only way that could happen is if he carries out a literal military coup. Trump doesn't seem like the type to be overly concerned with what a president can and can't do.
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Feb 24, 2017 07:54
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xeria posted:Trump doesn't seem like the type to be overly concerned with what a president can and can't do. I feel like if he or any other voted out lame duck president refused to leave then it would be [Extremely Street Judge Voice] Judgment Time.
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Feb 24, 2017 07:57
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If Trump refused to leave, the vice president and cabinet would transmit “to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office”. The VP then becomes acting president and the D.C. police or FBI arrest Trump.
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Feb 24, 2017 08:04
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Main Paineframe posted:It's a ridiculous fear to begin with. A president can't refuse to leave office. The only way that could happen is if he carries out a literal military coup. Is that why half his cabinet is generals?
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Feb 24, 2017 11:07
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Cat Mattress posted:Is that why half his cabinet is generals? Pretty sure the generals in question would be the first ones calling the capitol cops
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Feb 24, 2017 11:50
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Lightning Lord posted:Pretty sure the generals in question would be the first ones calling the capitol cops Nobody ever said Trump was a good judge of character.
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Feb 24, 2017 12:23
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xeria posted:Trump doesn't seem like the type to be overly concerned with what a president can and can't do. He doesn't get a say in the matter when he's not President anymore. You don't stop being the president when you leave the White House for good, you stop being the president when the White House staff starts saying "sorry, but you don't live here anymore".
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Feb 24, 2017 14:30
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I'm not saying that Trump not losing power is a possibility. A sitting President losing an election and saying, "This was rigged, I didn't actually lose" is a terrifying notion. And when we have a man who won the presidency and still argues that the election was rigged against him, it's not ridiculous.
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Feb 24, 2017 16:29
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The day he leaves the White House will be the happiest day of Trump's life. He'll leave and then spend the rest of his days telling adoring crowds that he tried to save America but was stabbed in the back by the powers that be.
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Feb 24, 2017 16:29
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