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Timeless Appeal posted:And you can say a bunch of poo poo about how our system is not very democratic to begin with but the fact is there has never been a President in the history of the United States where a fear of not giving up power if the time comes in 2020 seems so great. An impeachment will not be half as damaging than a President refusing to leave office or seven years of Pence. lol i still remember when hysterical leftists thought george w bush wouldn't relinquish power at the end of his term and institute martial law with fascist death camps edit: i still remember when rightists thought the same drat thing about obama, although they preferred the label of communist instead of fascist Marijuana Nihilist fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Feb 24, 2017 |
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Feb 24, 2017 17:00
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Marijuana Nihilist posted:lol i still remember when hysterical leftists thought george w bush wouldn't relinquish power at the end of his term and institute martial law with fascist death camps Once again, I have no fantasy that Trump will lead a military coup or change the Constitution or whatever. I'm saying that he won't concede if he loses in 2020. The best case scenario is him "reluctantly" stepping down. And everything he has said or done lends evidence to that. Once again, he's someone who won the US Election and still claims it was rigged.
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Feb 24, 2017 17:51
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Timeless Appeal posted:That's cool. George W and Obama never challenged the legitimacy of their respective elections or literally said that they would not accept the results of their elections. They never claimed they would jail their opponents. I do remember, on the other hand, tons of people on the left challenging the legitimacy of Trump's election, pushing for electors to steal the election from him and give it to someone else instead, asserting that the entire election was rigged by the Russians, and so on. And while Obama never pushed to jail his opponent, there sure were a lot of naive Obama supporters who hoped that he would jail his predecessor.
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Feb 24, 2017 17:55
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Main Paineframe posted:I do remember, on the other hand, tons of people on the left challenging the legitimacy of Trump's election, pushing for electors to steal the election from him and give it to someone else instead, asserting that the entire election was rigged by the Russians, and so on. And while Obama never pushed to jail his opponent, there sure were a lot of naive Obama supporters who hoped that he would jail his predecessor.
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Feb 24, 2017 18:11
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Perhaps if Trump resigns and Pence takes over, it would be the high watermark of the Polarization of politics in America and we could start to "heal." And by that I mean begin to have trust in one another again at some point. However, I know I will not be able to trust a republican on their word for a long time, if ever. So to me the previous statement is wishful thinking. What I think is most likely to happen in the incredibly unlikely scenario where Trump leaves office sooner than 2020 is the Republicans will continue to pull the overton window as hard to the right as they can and Democrats will start to do the same. The last shreds of democracy, at least as we know it 20th/Early 21st century, will burn. Something else will take it's place. Spoiler alert, it's going to be 1 power party authoritarianism; a minority party will always exist to keep the illusion going. E: But! Removing Trump means his appointees might go, but Bannon will almost certainly go. So if removing Trump means getting rid of every appointee as well as his WH staff, then that would be the best path. But this is a total hypothetical because the republicans will never vote him out. Some might, but most will view anything like that to be too damaging to the party. Acid Haze fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Feb 24, 2017 |
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Feb 24, 2017 18:35
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Main Paineframe posted:I do remember, on the other hand, tons of people on the left challenging the legitimacy of Trump's election, pushing for electors to steal the election from him and give it to someone else instead, asserting that the entire election was rigged by the Russians, and so on. And while Obama never pushed to jail his opponent, there sure were a lot of naive Obama supporters who hoped that he would jail his predecessor. I still think Dick Cheney should have been court-martialed for treason.
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Feb 24, 2017 19:05
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When fascism or communism comes to the states, people will not recognize it due to their historical myopia and the tendency to label everyone they hate commie-fascists
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Feb 24, 2017 19:07
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Cat Mattress posted:I still think Dick Cheney should have been court-martialed for treason. It would've been a trial, not a court-martial, as he was not a direct part of the military command structure. And they did attempt to impeach him. It failed, as one would expect.
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Feb 24, 2017 20:06
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Did we ever determine which branch of government the VP belongs to under Cheney?
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Feb 24, 2017 20:09
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Suddenly this thread became extremelly relevant again. Also, what would a Paul Ryan Presidency look like, assuming Pence also falls?
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May 18, 2017 04:05
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Grouchio posted:Suddenly this thread became extremelly relevant again. P90X Presidential Edition: Leaner Budgets, Bigger Gains
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May 18, 2017 05:00
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Shbobdb posted:This. Is this like sarcastic?
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May 18, 2017 05:35
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Grouchio posted:Suddenly this thread became extremelly relevant again. I assume we would fix our government by trimming the fat, and by trimming the fat I mean killing all the fatties because thats a pre-existing condition.
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May 18, 2017 05:54
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Pence would be way better because Trump's much worse than just incompetent and malicious, his entire yelling nonsense shtick is basically the ultimate end of the reality-attacking shtick of republicans for the past 12 years and he's kind of made facts irrelevant to an unprecedented degree, which has bolstered basically every dishonest charlatan out there and made reporting on actual problems near-impossible. Obviously the damage is largely done in that regard but it would be nice to have the insane yelling guy who keeps calling everything fake news not be in a position of prestige and power anymore.
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May 18, 2017 22:00
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I'm still not really sure whether it would be good to remove Trump, even if you ignore the repercussions of the impeachment itself (i.e. just assume replacing him with Pence/Ryan). As more time passes, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Trump is very unlikely to do anything completely insane (and if he attempted he would probably be stopped or at least hamstrung, like with his Muslim Ban thing). I'm concerned that a Pence presidency would be far more "focused" and accomplish more than a Trump presidency. In a way, I think that all of the absurd things Trump does might help to distract Republicans from actually pushing for specific legislation. While one could argue that Trump's antics ruin the reputation of the President of the United States, I'm not sure if there are actually any tangible downsides to that aside from peoples' sensibilities being offended. It's still a little too early to tell just how dangerous Trump is, but the more time that passes without him pulling any stunts with actual repercussions, the more I feel there might not be much to gain from removing him. edit: I also worry that removing Trump would greatly embolden and energize anti-establishment Republicans, which is a really dangerous road to go down (since "anti-establishment Republican" usually translates to "pretty much fascist").
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May 18, 2017 22:57
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Isn't there any road that would lead to new elections? In most countries, the fall of the head of state means the fall of the government and new elections. Let's say Drumpf & Pence both turn out to be compromised and have to go, how much legitimacy and actual power to govern would Ryan have? I understand that it would be a bit like Ford, so did Ford have a lot of power in practice? Shibawanko fucked around with this message at 13:58 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 13:47
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Shibawanko posted:Isn't there any road that would lead to new elections? In most countries, the fall of the head of state means the fall of the government and new elections. He pardoned Nixon, so...
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May 19, 2017 18:35
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Shibawanko posted:Isn't there any road that would lead to new elections? In most countries, the fall of the head of state means the fall of the government and new elections. yeah in most countries they learned from the shitshow that was the American system's first ~50 years and improved on it substantially. Ford had very little power, but that was several decades of Imperial Presidency and also a Congress that had nothing to gain through cooperating with him ago.
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May 19, 2017 21:31
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How could Snap elections be hypothetically called? Who could do it? Would the lack of precedent smother such an idea from taking hold into action?
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May 19, 2017 22:10
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Grouchio posted:How could Snap elections be hypothetically called? Who could do it? Would the lack of precedent smother such an idea from taking hold into action? they couldn't, nobody could, and yes
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May 19, 2017 22:25
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If the fallout from Nixon is any indication, an impeachment or resignation would horribly harm the Republicans in Congress for 7 years give or take. Carter of course won entirely on "gently caress Nixon" sentiment. And Nixon was way more popular than Trump. If Pence succeeds Trump he's just the next target. He's assuredly dirty as hell. Ford stuck around because he wasn't really a Nixon guy like Agnew, who was whacked earlier. Pence was a toady to Trump before he took office.
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May 19, 2017 22:37
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Pence is a dolt who governed Indiana like a clown, nobody but the churchiest actually likes him.
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May 19, 2017 22:47
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Lightning Lord posted:Pence is a dolt who governed Indiana like a clown, nobody but the churchiest actually likes him.
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May 19, 2017 23:06
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donald trump is a moron. there's just no getting around this. he believes and regurgitates whatever the most recent information he read was, which these days is mostly hours of fox news. he's impulsive enough to blab highly classified information to a russian ambassador purely to brag. he has no consistent policy positions beyond "the media is unfair" and has failed to govern or lead in any sense of the word in the four months he's been in office. his administration has been ridden by self inflicted scandals daily. he cannot be said to have an agenda he's working towards or a vision for the future of his party. in other words he's vastly preferable to a republican with any measure of competence or intelligence because they would actually get things done. trump is reducing the legitimacy of the office? are you loving kidding me? who gives a poo poo? this is why republicans stamp all over you, they don't care about "our institutions" they care about enacting policy
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May 20, 2017 01:42
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Grouchio posted:How the hell did he become Governor in the first place? he got in in 2012, so probaly during one of the last tea party waves. idk.
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May 20, 2017 03:42
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Pence would definitely start a war in the Middle East in order to bring the Second Coming. And he'd not only ban Muslims from entering the US, but Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and Catholics as well.
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May 20, 2017 06:53
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Grouchio posted:How the hell did he become Governor in the first place? Heres a rundown I have saved from someone else: quote:Pence got the endorsement from the much-liked former Republican governor Mitch Daniels (now president of Purdue) basically with the promise that he wouldn't pursue a social agenda. Mitch Daniels was liked because he focused almost exclusively on the economy and government efficiency. He gave no fucks about social issues, and it was implied that Pence, as the successor of Daniels, would set aside the social dogmas that he was known for and govern a state that was on a very good path, economically, after Mitch Daniels' two terms.
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May 20, 2017 06:55
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sean10mm posted:If the fallout from Nixon is any indication, an impeachment or resignation would horribly harm the Republicans in Congress for 7 years give or take. Carter of course won entirely on "gently caress Nixon" sentiment. The same ugly backlash tendencies that had been harnessed at the national level by Nixon propelled Reagan into the Presidency and transformed the entire country less than a decade after his impeachment. I don't think it's a particularly hopeful precedent. If anything it's a lesson in how opposition to Trump needs to be grounded in something more substantial than a critique of his individual personality and behavior. The Hilary campaign already hosed this up once by trying to portray Trump as an alien force far removed from the GOP mainstream rather than the logical culmination of the Southern Strategy and Fox News. If the Democrats cannot offer some kind of convincing and popular alternative to right-wing populism and white nationalism then removing Trump would be a minor and possibly Pyrrhic victory in the grand scheme of things.
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May 20, 2017 13:29
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Stexils posted:donald trump is a moron. there's just no getting around this. he believes and regurgitates whatever the most recent information he read was, which these days is mostly hours of fox news. he's impulsive enough to blab highly classified information to a russian ambassador purely to brag. he has no consistent policy positions beyond "the media is unfair" and has failed to govern or lead in any sense of the word in the four months he's been in office. his administration has been ridden by self inflicted scandals daily. he cannot be said to have an agenda he's working towards or a vision for the future of his party. He's also a hateful, demented, spiteful grandpa in charge of the NUCLEAR ARSENAL. I realize there's an argument to be made that politically it would be better to leave him in office, but we have to realize we can't rely on him for even the most basic of tasks in this office. We cannot entrust him with the fate of the entire world if there's even a 5% chance he'll lose it during a REAL crisis. We can fix damage Pence does, eventually. We cannot fix blast craters. Edit: Not to mention, there is a VITAL precedent to reinforce here. If you are president and you commit treason, you get hurled out on your rear end, no ifs ands or buts, and no matter who would benefit by you staying. TheBalor fucked around with this message at 23:21 on May 20, 2017 |
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May 20, 2017 13:40
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So what I gather from the Indiana post is, Pence would gleefully stab the Donald in the back in order to ascend to the presidency?
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May 21, 2017 05:33
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In my opinion, we have to frame things in a longer time scale, and get our heads out of thinking a status quo ante will be restored again. If I were to phrase the question, I would ask, "Which combination of Trump, Pence, or other players most completely annihilates the ability of all capitalists, corporatists, conservatives, neo-nazis, fascists, and fundamentalists to ever express their ideas in public again without shame?" For me, the functional word is "shame". Americans no longer feel shame as a stabilizing emotion that maintains mores because we have conveniently split into our own ingroups and outgroups. That means we need a seriously strong lever, an event or set of events that so fundamentally destabilizes the split reality we're dying in that it's really, urgently no longer sustainable. Getting Trump and the GOP into all three branches is the first, important foray into destroying all political parties, especially the Democrats. What must die is this idea that "conservatism can never fail, but can only be failed." Optimally, what I hope to see within the next six months is Trump and McConnell managing to stall the Rosensten/Mueller investigations long enough to make it until the world real estate and financial bubble part two bursts. I Need a fully GOP government to face a full Great-Depression^2 economic collapse in the middle of their terms. I need them to institute policies and have them make everything worse. I voted for Trump so he'd rip the loving heart out of the idea that businessmen make good presidents. Good riddance to that loving meme. Pence is not better than Trump, but serves as a necessary second phase, should he manage to survive. The other idea we need the GOP to destroy for us is the idea of fundamentalist virtue. Pence is perfectly positioned to do poo poo on social and religious issues that could generate real horror, real fight-for-your-life terror in the United States. President Pence with a GOP Congress is a completely different story than Trump: I could see him instantly bringing in every ugly old name from the Bush presidencies, if they're still alive, and arranging a quite-functional executive branch focused entirely upon loving up the basic liberties of Americans based on fundamentalist Christian theology. But Pence and Trump are only the catalysts for disgust. We should be grateful for both of them because what they do is enable the Democratic Party in the US to show its craven worthlessness in the face of serious national danger. There is no "principled party", and we're one national power outage, one automated stock market collapse, one single day-long internet outage from people going loving Lord of the Flies. In 2015, I predicted that the Democrats were hosed because they were just blindly counting on demographics to keep them in the presidency while sacrificing the congress. I said all it took was one loss, and all their intent to stabilize and grow America would be hosed. Let us never forget that disgust is the fundamental emotion that formed civilization, not some fruity thing like love. Our entire political system has outlived its usefulness. The ideas of liberalism and conservatism are both dead ends. Neither communism nor capitalism has any sustainable future. If Trump just farts out of the presidency and does not manage to preside over a global financial collapse, then he's not worth much. He's just a lovely, infantile rear end in a top hat who did dumb poo poo. If he DOES stay in office long enough for the bubble to pop and presides over the collapse, he is of IMMENSE utility. If that happens, and THEN Pence comes in with draconian social reforms on top of the financial collapse, then both of them have served their purpose, and it's hard to call one better than the other. And that purpose, of course, is to put the Democrats in the same position and have them gently caress it up too. We need a series of undeniable, life-ruining fuckups to even have a CHANCE at the American people DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, because as long as we have our fuckin burrito wrappers, our instagram, and the rest, we will remain too pacified to take action so extreme it's never been attempted before. Of course, I'm that rear end in a top hat. To me, radical, whole-society change is the only thing worth thinking about, and to get there, we all have to go through some serious destabilization. And in the end, isn't this what we all would want? Trump and Pence disgraced along with everyone who voted for them, a deep enough cultural wound to cauterize the ugly stump of nativism, and then a follow-up failure by the Democratic pretenders? Clean slates are hard to come by, but we need one in the next 30-50 years, or we're all dead. Stability and consistency are our mortal enemies as a human race and as a living planet. Change must accelerate.
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May 21, 2017 06:28
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None of those things can kill thier idea Quidam.
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May 21, 2017 06:33
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Your criticisms seem to be on point, but! It appears to me that this fight for correction has driven you a little insane, down a slippery slope that I would have crossed if I had still chosen to rant daily against the election of Trump. You can be as cynical as you want but I know for a fact that there is a point where someone's line is crossed, and for many Americans the events of this administration have made them cross that line. Somethin's gotta give, Somethin's gotta give. We wouldn't be human otherwise. That's my take I suppose.
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May 21, 2017 06:47
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Grouchio posted:Your criticisms seem to be on point, but! It appears to me that this fight for correction has driven you a little insane, down a slippery slope that I would have crossed if I had still chosen to rant daily against the election of Trump. You can be as cynical as you want but I know for a fact that there is a point where someone's line is crossed, and for many Americans the events of this administration have made them cross that line. Somethin's gotta give, Somethin's gotta give. We wouldn't be human otherwise. Then essentially, we agree on what's important: we both believe there is a line, we both believe it must be crossed, and we feel like being truly human means sensing that and making the change that allows us to keep on going. I'm particularly interested in what exactly people think is "insanity" any more, because it's what I get tagged with here when I post, either that or suggestions that I kill myself. I have never ranted against Trump, only for his election, for these effects I predicted. It's the exact opposite of cynicism. A cynic would simply tell you to stick with the status quo, because it's pointless, and evil will always consume us. I believe I am the most radical of optimists. I believe we can still make enough change not to go extinct. But when Donald J. Trump is President of the United States, Erdogan is ordering American citizens to be beaten on US soil, and we literally have two totally separate, co-existing, and contradicting sets of facts and news in this country, what line am I crossing that brands ME as insane, in this world of insanity? You're a bank-shot impeachment away from President Pence, and somehow, this talk is what gets a person labeled insane? I share a country with 63 million people who voted for this. Are they sane?
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May 21, 2017 07:25
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Are you an Anarcho-Primitivist or something?
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May 21, 2017 09:06
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Sergg posted:Are you an Anarcho-Primitivist or something? He's a member of the league of assassins. Society must be destroyed so a new one can rise from the ashes, and all that.
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May 21, 2017 16:36
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Quidam Viator posted:What must die is this idea that "conservatism can never fail, but can only be failed." Optimally, what I hope to see within the next six months is Trump and McConnell managing to stall the Rosensten/Mueller investigations long enough to make it until the world real estate and financial bubble part two bursts. I Need a fully GOP government to face a full Great-Depression^2 economic collapse in the middle of their terms. I need them to institute policies and have them make everything worse. I voted for Trump so he'd rip the loving heart out of the idea that businessmen make good presidents. Good riddance to that loving meme. Remember: you've got to start with the conclusion and work backwards with these things.
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May 21, 2017 16:47
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Pence is in power now. It's not like we are choosing between Trump or Pence. It's Trump and Pence or just Pence. I'll take just the one embarrassing nut job, thanks.
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May 22, 2017 00:24
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Surely if Trump refused to leave office in 2020, you could just wait until the weekend and then change the locks while he's out golfing.
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May 22, 2017 12:52
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Eifert Posting posted:Pence is in power now. The White House pretty clearly has no functional center of power. It's utterly dysfunctional court politics ruled by backbiting and jockying to be the last person to throw water into the President's sieve-like mind. As to the larger question about the wisdom of impeachment, it ultimately is going to come down to whatever is in the GOP's best interest (which has an unclear relationship to the best interest of individual members). The problem for the Dems is that there isn't a credible-sounding justification for NOT impeaching him at that point, even if they give up the advantage of a massively unpopular incumbent.
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May 22, 2017 18:31
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