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The Panda is still the best FIAT by far.
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Feb 27, 2017 03:46
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Seat Safety Switch posted:Vacationing in Italy made me fall in love with the Nuova Panda (03-12). I don't know if the new new Panda is any good, but I think the 2nd gen looks the best. The new Panda is decent but really you ought to get the MultiJet rather than the twinair. The new Tipo/Egea is OK, but it really needs to be an absolute outright win for FIAT to survive and it won't be.
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Feb 27, 2017 15:55
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There's a very nice Fulvia Rallye 1.3 on BAT right now. If the color was better and I wasn't moving in a few months I'd jump on it. Italian cars before roughly 1975 are the best Italian cars.
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Feb 28, 2017 20:18
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InitialDave posted:You're really buying a beautifully engineered, premium engine. Everything else is just packaging to help you get it home, and will probably start to disintegrate when exposed to moisture. I'd argue that in most cases you are buying a wonderful drivetrain and a car that handles better than it ought to, but everything else is probably poo poo. Also, if you've driven the TwinAir, you would realize you are actually buying a tremendous lump of garbage.
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Mar 1, 2017 20:11
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Deteriorata posted:FIAT on the Dragon is your 124 an Abarth or no
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Mar 3, 2017 21:22
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should I do a post on the Fulvia or does no one care
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Mar 15, 2017 18:57
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 Serie 1 1.3 Rallye Coupe in Blu Lancia, classic color scheme. The cream-painted steel wheels with chrome hubcaps are stock. To really understand the Fulvia, you have to really understand Lancia, which I don’t think is quite possible. Lancia was founded by a pair of ex-FIAT racing drivers in Turin. Fundamentally a company by and for engineers, it produced some innovative and strange cars all the way up to its acquisition by FIAT in 1974. Notable innovations: First production V6, a strange sliding pillar front suspension design stolen from cyclecars, first European car with a full electrical system, first five speed gear box, independent suspension on production cars, etc. It was generally an early adopter of innovative technologies like disc brakes, front wheel drive, overhead cam engine designs, etc. They're probably best known in the US for the absolutely insane Lancia Stratos and the equally mental Delta Integrale and their resulting success in WRC and the IMC that preceded it. The commercial saga was dire, including various ownership changes, a complete lack of focus on mass production and automation, and low sales due to very high prices (in part because of the high quality and essentially semi-hand-built nature of the cars). The bean counters matter, unfortunately. Anyway, back to the Fulvia. The Italian saying is “Boys drive Alfas and men drive Lancias.” Lancias were for the sensible conservative petit bourgeois of industrial Northern Italy. Very high build quality, good performance, but not showy. A reasonably apt analogy might be Jaguar. The Fulvia replaced a previous small car, which was a RWD V4 four sedan called the Appia. It had very classic styling, sort of like a small American car from the 40s, and clearly belonged to a bygone era by the 1960s. See below:  Appia Serie 3, last edition. It had been soldiering on since 1953. Lancia had redesigned their larger car, the Flavia, to be front-wheel drive using a flat four configuration with the engine ahead of the transaxle. Experience with a FF layout led them to use it again. However, the Fulvia was to be quite a bit smaller, and the broad H-4 engine made the floorpan basically dictated a Flavia-sized car. A longitudinally mounted I4 would make the car’s nose ridiculously long and the polar moment of inertia extremely far forward. (Saab solved this problem by mounting the engine behind the transaxle, backwards) The solution was to use a similar (but clean sheet) engine to the Appia, a longitudinally mounted V4.  Lancia, Saab and some Euro Fords are the only place that you can see someone write V4 and not write them off as a complete idiot. The V4 had a number of advantages. First of all, it was a narrow-angle design. The angle between banks varied by displacement, but was between 13 and 11 degrees. This allowed the engine to have a single cylinder head and head gasket, saving money. It also allowed for a true DOHC design with only two cams, not four – one for all intake valves and one for all exhaust valves. Most importantly, it allowed the engine and center of gravity to be very close to the front axle due to its very short overall length. VW later copied this shamelessly with the VR6 and VR5, but those were mounted transversely in sort of the opposite packaging requirement.  I think this is actually from an Appia since I don’t think Fulvia blocks were painted green (block at left, head at right) but you get the idea.  Silver in the foreground is the cylinder head. You can see it’s only a bit longer than the battery is wide, and the airbox feeding the twin Solexes is about the same size as well. Lancia engineers also were able to further shorten the car by tipping the engine over 45 degrees and mounting the radiator next to the engine on the passenger’s side underneath the intake manifold. The cold side was on the top of the engine, roughly at the centerline of the car, and the hot side was fairly close to the driver’s side front wheel.  Imagine the radiator directly in front of the airbox at left. The design allowed a number of advantages: • Very short front overhang for a car that has its entire powertrain forward of the front axle. • Longitudinally mounted engine which reduces torque steer in a FF configuration • Extreme F-R weight distribution (something like 65-35) depending on trim, which gave a very good level of grip to the drive wheels (hence success in rally) • Small floorpan size and narrow width of the vehicle. • Nice flat floorpan and good interior space relative to size • It makes a really, really cool noise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtmR16Po7UM In addition, there was a very high standard of equipment throughout. Series 1 cars had four wheel Dunlop disc brakes, and an all-synchromesh 4-speed gearbox, 14” Pirelli radial tires on the Coupes, aluminum bodywork on most Rallye and HF versions, etc. It was a car that spared no expense and was priced like it. A Series 1 1.3 Rallye in 1967 in the US cost about $3,500 which was a poo poo load of money, considering a Shelby GT350 cost just under $4,000. Throughout the run, you could get the Fulvia in Berlinetta (sedan), Coupe, or Sport Zagato body styles. The engines ranged from about 1.2L to 1.6L, depending on trim level and application, and usually were fed through one or two Solex carbs. Power outputs range from low 60s in Berlinetta Grecia (sedan for Greek market) versions up to about 130 hp in the rally homologation special 1.6HF. There was also a Zagato-bodied hatchback, but the internally designed Coupe is the best looking in my opinion. Coupe performance was roughly on par with the Alfa GT Junior (also 1300 cc displacement). This is a pretty good article/review form the time period describing strengths and weaknesses: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28772/archived-drive-1967-lancia-fulvia/ I particularly like the part about the clock keeping good time – it shows what the standards for build quality were in 1967, and in addition as I write this 100% of Fulvia clocks are now inop. Here’s the same car as above from the back, yea girl.  Prices currently range from $7-12,000 for a good Berlinetta, $20,000 for a good 1.3 or 1.3S, $15,000 for a Serie 3 1.3 (decontented, thanks Fiat), $30,000 for a 1.6, and $Texas for anything with an HF on it. The Fulvia was decontented after purchase by Fiat for the Serie 3, and then replaced by the absolutely terrible Lancia Beta. The last "True" Lancia is usually considered to be the Serie 2 Lancia 2000, which was descended from the Flavia. After that, it's almost all badge-engineered Fiats all the way down, even for the excellent Stratos and Delta Integrale. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 15:57
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:Thank you very much for this cool-rear end post. I'm pretty ignorant about Lancias (and Italian cars in general), but I've always thought the Fulvias were pretty. Similar to the old Giulias which are definitely lookers. I had no idea that they had V4s. Very cool! Pretty on the outside, weird as gently caress on the inside in a good way. Lancia made some wild stuff. The Flavia/2000 is quite nice as well, the flat-fours are torquey and slow to rev versus the Fulvia which hates being under 2000 rpm.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:17
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Also, if anyone is interested in acquiring Italian stuff from back when it was actually good and interesting, let me know. I have a fair stable of contacts over in Italy for both acquiring cars and shipment/handling to the US. I'm not in the business myself, but can get you connected with some decent people.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:41
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Leaking just lets you know it has oil
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Mar 31, 2017 23:59
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Fiat has always done cheap and simple pretty well.
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Apr 2, 2017 00:10
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yeah I have had an extensive sampling of small Euro crossovers and actually the Fiat 500X is hot spicy garbage seriously buy literally ANY OTHER small euro crossover. The Captur, the Cactus, the EcoSport, Mokka, HR-V are all better than the 500X by a long shot.
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Apr 12, 2017 09:24
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sharkytm posted:The HR-V is really slow. Like REALLY slow. I test drove one this weekend and was amazed at how wheezy and underpowered it was. the 500x is slow, cramped, ugly and poorly made At least with the Honda it's well made and the interior is cleverly designed.
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Apr 12, 2017 12:41
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This is kind of a fund top gear segment where they talk a little bit about the Fulvia and a little bit about some other Lancias. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1RKpdFjE4I also prepare to stab yourself in the ear hole because british people can't loving say Lancia good God it's not difficult
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Apr 18, 2017 14:50
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There's an Appia on BaT right now, and there's a hell of a lot of old Lancia expertise in the comment thread if you want to learn about bizarre poo poo that nobody cares about. I am curious to see how it ends up price-wise.
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May 8, 2017 02:08
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I want Fiat to bring back the Panda 100hp.
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May 15, 2017 13:59
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BR-Zs cost $12k now???
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May 15, 2017 21:32
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Grakkus posted:I've just closed on a deal for a 1970 Lancia Fulvia Coupe Rallye 1.3S that I'm planning on restoring with my dad. It's relatively rust free and the engine turns over, but everything needs work - it hasn't run in a long time, it only shifts into two gears, no brakes, and the paint is pretty awful. I'm pretty excited, it's being delivered in three weeks: Is that really a Rallye 1.3S? Looks like an S2 1.3S with the five-speed leva corta gearbox (and S2 badging, stamped steel wheels without covers, etc). Brakes are supposedly quite a lot easier to source and restore, so you have that going for you. I will be very excited to see progress.
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May 26, 2017 15:23
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I thought that the blacked out headlights were a factory option, not DIA. If you want to see a beautiful example of Italian carrozzeria there is a Farina Lancia Aurelia on BAT right now.
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May 30, 2017 14:32
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DoLittle posted:Apparently the 200 hp petrol Alfa Giulias sold in Europe only differ from the 280 hp models through software. So you can buy the cheaper 200 hp model and just change the software from the 280 hp model. Tuners also offer the same 310 - 320 hp programs for both of them. So 200 hp -> 320 hp with just a software change... That's quite normal for turbocharged engines in general but especially in Europe. The Giulia may be a great car but it's not selling well at all. Monthly gains, sure, but it's getting beaten out by the positively ancient S60, the 2-series which is two doors only, and the ATS (lol). It is one of the worst selling cars in its segment. It is selling better than the XE, though!
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Jul 6, 2017 08:20
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DoLittle posted:It sells 4-5 times more than S60 in Europe. In US they are about the same. Currently Giulia is selling ~3500 units (mostly in Europe) per month with slight upwards trend. If the US sales would reach European levels it would be close to the 70 000 per year target. spoiler alert it won't, Alfa's dealer network is poo poo
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Jul 6, 2017 10:45
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Look I am the worlds biggest Italian car apologist but when your product is just... almost as good, with a bad reputation for reliability and garbage dealer support, you're not going to have a good couple years. On the other hand if that weren't the case it wouldn't be an Alfa. If they offered the base engine with a stick I would own one already, the QV is just a bit too expensive.
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Jul 6, 2017 20:47
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kimbo305 posted:
I'm legitimately glad that someone is still making 'em like they used ta
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Jul 18, 2017 12:20
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kimbo305 posted:He makes a lot of good points (and gets quoted in the other article), but he doesn't double down on the fact that teething pains or not, new cars can never have the character that old cars will. Like if the car performed flawlessly, would it be able to recapture the brand spirit in a Spider or GTV? He does mention that no modern car can match up to the older stuff, but it is kind of a throwaway line.
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Jul 20, 2017 12:49
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ok as long as it's like the FF i don't give a poo poo the FF was cool
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Aug 4, 2017 07:54
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Range isn't very good, much like all of that generation of compliance electrics, but they are cheap and you are getting rid of several of the points of failure on the 500! Also Serge hates you if you buy one so that's a plus.
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Aug 28, 2017 20:43
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Resurrecting this thread from the dead to say - got in the mix on BAT for the Fulvia that just sold. Prices are getting absolutely insane, though. That's a 13k euro car in Italy, not sure that avoiding import hassles is really worth more than 5K. I will probably go the Italy route later this year and will post a thread on the process or something if I get less lazy.
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Sep 28, 2017 08:09
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Kind of kicking myself that I didn't scrimp a bit harder 2-3 years ago and pick one up then. The market has gotten pretty crazy, pretty fast. 19,5 for a pretty original S1 1.3S in decent shape that needs a seat reupholstered, some TLC on a paint scratch, a floorpan patch (which will hurt the value of the car if patched), and has exceedingly unattractive (to my mind) aftermarket wheels. Granted, it was the most classic color combination but still. I actually agree with noted Lancist Ed L that BAT has probably hosed up the market for these cars in the US. I'll be interested to see what the (unarguably better sorted out) red S2 goes for in a few days.
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Sep 28, 2017 14:52
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I am in Brazil right now and have an indeed Fabulous Italian Automobile with Brazilian Characteristics. It's a 2017 Fiat Uno "Attractive" trim. It's made in the Fiat plant in Belo Horizonte, and is roughly the market equivalent of the Panda, with which it shares almost no components. The Uno is based on the old Palio. The car has a three-cylinder NA 996cc six valve engine that runs on either ethanol or gasoline. Most people run their cars on ethanol if possible because it's about 70% of the cost of gasoline. Ethanol improves torque and reduces top end power by a little bit. Horsepower is roughly 70-72 depending on fuel type, and torque is about the same range in lb-ft. You can tell it's a FIAT because the gearbox is absolute garbage but the engine is very decent. It will happily rev away at 5000 RPMs and I've definitely pushed it well up to the 6500 RPM redline without realizing it. You have to rev the gently caress out of any car with 70hp, but especially in Brazil since there are a poo poo ton of hills. The handling is OK, suspension is fairly compliant and does a good job soaking up the ruts, potholes, and speed bumps. It has cloth seats, air conditioning, manual mirrors, power front/manual rear windows, and what looks like a janky aftermarket head unit that takes a USB input but won't charge a phone. The seat is comfortable enough, and visibility is very good. Gauges are simple, as are controls. Neat features include a small parcel shelf above the glovebox and plenty of cupholders and random storage pockets. It costs about the equivalent of $13,000 US.
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Oct 8, 2017 21:32
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Unfortunately I've given it back. The new one is not as attractive as the old one - the old one had an interesting classic Fiat 3-hole offset grille and the new one is a bit more plain. Think of a smaller, less boxy Kia Soul. It also got one star in Latin American crash testing.
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Oct 10, 2017 10:13
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why in the gently caress do you want a sixty K chrysler 300 you can buy 2 chrysler 300 for the same price I am an Italian car apologist and the Ghibli is an unforgivable sin. At least the Alfasud was cheap. I've driven one. The engine is kind of nice. The exterior styling is decent. The interior is Chrysler partsbin if you know where to look but con stile italano. Every other car in its class is better than it at everything except being Italian and having exterior styling. Upside they depreciate like loving rocks so you can get a used one for like six bucks
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Oct 30, 2017 13:17
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if you want an Italian sedan you might as well just get a Giulia QV, it's all the same problems with way more of the fun
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Oct 31, 2017 13:00
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Gamesguy posted:Well, I live only a couple of miles from a Maserati dealer and as long as they give me a loaner it shouldn't be a problem. Maintenance wise it's about the same as my current car. Giulia QV: $70,000 base MSRP Ghibli S: $78,000 base MSRP ???????
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Oct 31, 2017 19:00
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dang, I couldn't find lease details for either online but that is... extreme you clearly really want to get the Ghibli so go ahead and do it
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Nov 1, 2017 13:29
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cakesmith handyman posted:I realised last night it's possible to fit 15's on the panda. Looking on eBay this opens up so many terrible possibilities... there's the classic bear wheels that were available for the Miata, that would be very fitting for a Panda
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Nov 1, 2017 17:12
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I can't decide whether a new Panda rolling on a Cromodora CD3 would look cool or not.
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Nov 1, 2017 18:21
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CD66 maybe?
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Nov 1, 2017 20:04
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Deteriorata posted:Holy poo poo, that's beautiful. I desperately wanted one of those in '83, but I was in grad school and had no money. Then they stopped making them. You can buy a good example (1600cc is best really) from the early 1970s for like ten, twelve grand in very decent condition. The '83 is too late, it has lovely bumpers and you need to do a lot more work to the Lampredi to get good results. An absolutely perfect dual IDF French Blue 124 sold for like 17,000 on BAT a few weeks back. That's about the absolute top of the range. I've started my hunt for a Fulvia. So far have a line on a decent S1 but it's red with a black interior which is like my least favorite color combo. edit: panasports blow on Italian cars, cromodora supremacy bitches KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Nov 22, 2017 |
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Nov 22, 2017 21:28
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kimbo305 posted:They don't look quite right, but only the 4 spoke Cromodoras would work on that 124, which it doesn't really to be said, looks light years better than the tribute of the modern 124. what you want is the CD19 which was an option for certain model years, but I think the five spoke star pattern Cromodoras would look OK too panasports are unattractive on most cars
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Nov 22, 2017 22:09
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There is a much better 124 on BaT now although I question the idiot that rebuilds a Lampredi four cylinder and paints the timing belt cover red and puts ugly rear end MSW alloys on the car.
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Nov 29, 2017 15:36
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