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Poll: Who Should Be Leader of HM Most Loyal Opposition?
This poll is closed.
Jeremy Corbyn 95 18.63%
Dennis Skinner 53 10.39%
Angus Robertson 20 3.92%
Tim Farron 9 1.76%
Paul Ukips 7 1.37%
Robot Lenin 105 20.59%
Tony Blair 28 5.49%
Pissflaps 193 37.84%
Total: 510 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
  • Locked thread
Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

CptAwesome posted:

Whats considered a normal wait to see a GP? I rang earlier today to make an appointment at my surgery and I've been told the next appointment is the 29th - literally 4 weeks away. Is it me or is this a bit long?

Three weeks at my new surgery, which I raised an eyebrow at. Or you can call at 8am and take pot luck they can find you an appointment on that day.

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Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

TinTower posted:

They could if Labour had a spine.

How?

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

TinTower posted:

They keep putting the amendment back in. Again and again and again, if needs be.

Just checking, but you realise the Lords can only do this once more before parliament can bypass them?

The only thing reasonably in their power is to delay the bill by a maximum of a year, but I don't think that's in anyone's interests. Both the EU and the UK want to end the uncertainty as soon as possible.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

jBrereton posted:

Yes because they're not the loving lib dems they're a party of government, and no other major party wanted it.

Reversing on the manifesto commitment for an EU referendum sounds like a good way to ensure that a certain purple coloured party became 'major' in British politics.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

TinTower posted:

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/84137834158846774

Corbyn fails to show up for his own rally. What a loving idiot.

He couldn't make it after the Brexit bill vote began later than expected. The rally (of only around 100 people) was addressed by McDonnell and Abbott instead. Not really a big story?

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

ThomasPaine posted:

rees-mogg was entirely as expected and I just can't bring myself to hate him,

Funnily enough, one of the members of our board has had dealings with him. He wouldn't go into specifics when I pressed, but described him as "a real nasty piece of work".

Not the bumbling harmless old fool he would have us believe apparently.

LemonDrizzle posted:

Being MP for Tatton must be the easiest job in the world if you can do it at the same time as editing a widely read newspaper and being a senior adviser to a major financial firm.

It's an absolute loving farce. If Corbyn is on the ball, perhaps this could spearhead a push about sorting out MPs having other appointments, since it's so blatantly over the top.

Black Rock must be rubbing their hands at the thought of all that backdoor influence they can exercise through him straight into the brains of Londoners.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

SpaceCommie posted:

I'm guessing it's "if I were a member of the LGBT community I'd be happy to be open at work."

Interesting disparity between the real and the imagined level of expected acceptance there.

Still a bizarre question though, who the gently caress wants to talk about their sexuality at work?

goddamnedtwisto posted:

It's a massive problem, and one that nobody ever wants to address because a) mental health in this country was a loving mess even before the Tories started gutting it, and b) the main Forces-related charities are still stuck in this 19th century mindset about mental health. The RBL are a little bit better (in that they at least try to cope with institutionalisation and immediately-apparent PTSD) than H4H, who outright ignore mental health issues, but the only charities who really actually help both with the more or less unique stew of mental health problems that can be triggered by military service are completely dwarfed by those two.

Some of it of course is the general out-of-sight out-of-mind problem of mental health charities generally - a double amputee climbing Ben Nevis is a much better poster boy than someone managing to make it to the shops and back without crying - but the macho attitude surrounding the military compounds this massively, both in the lack of help and also in the minds of the victims, because they have totally internalised the "Just snap out of it" default attitude to mental health problems.

I do wonder whether a non-prison route for veterans guilty of crimes (even violent ones) due to their mental health is an appropriate thing in the short term - e.g. some secure facility that is much less poo poo than prison, given the state is partially responsible for their condition.

Prison has zero ability to do anything constructive with the mental health of inmates. I hold no hope of that changing across the whole prison estate, but maybe in the short term doing something about the smaller number of veteran inmates would be achievable and more politically palatable.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

goddamnedtwisto posted:

It is a second-strike system that is basically indestructible - destroying that single sub would take either a chain of absolutely colossal and perfectly-timed series of fuckups, or the most incredible bit of luck in the history of warfare.

Or just hanging around near Faslane and following it. :ninja: 2010 incident too.

In other bourgie news, I bought a bottle of whisky today and the lady on the checkout opened up the enclosing box to discover that some glorious bastard had removed the security tag and necked the bottle, before replacing it on the shelf and somehow managing not to die on his way out of the store. :2bong:

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Possibly old news, but how does someone get to be a Labour councillor holding views like this about the homeless?

quote:

A Labour councillor who branded Oxford's homeless people "a disgrace" has visited a soup kitchen to "eat humble pie".

John Tanner made the comments on Radio Oxford, and added that tourists "don't want to see rough sleepers all over the place."

He apologised for his comments and accepted an invitation to the Oxford Community Soup Kitchen, run by Icolyn "Ma" Smith.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Taear posted:

I know this point has been hammered over and over but the Labour Party said absolutely loads about the budget. It was all over their twitter, they said stuff on the news. But it wasn't in the papers. Why would the Daily Mail report what labour has to say about something though? I don't know what he expects Labour to actually DO there.

Not being hammered enough, as I still see "where are Labour on this?!" rearing its head in this thread. I, too, would love to hear what the solution is beyond hoping the Daily Mail will give column inches to Labour under a new leader out of the kindness of their heart.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

ThomasPaine posted:

I think one thing that really should happen is the Labour left should stop trying to tell (because the media will ignore or distort them) and start showing. Foodbanks, community work etc etc etc. They have the resources to do it after the Corbyn influx. Make it loving obvious that Labour is actively helping people on a day-to-day basis in a way that cannot be ignored.

This is something that Momentum are apparently gearing up to try and do, and I'm really interested to see how it goes. It would be a great example about how Labour affiliates can complement the activity of the local party, which seems to be much more focused on campaigning and local government. Back in the early days before hope was crushed, I vaguely recall some interesting stuff by Corbyn and McDonnel about how they saw a much expanded future for unions as a 'cradle to grave' social and community support, rather than being limited to representing workers, so I think it's something that would have their support too.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Pissflaps posted:

What are they waiting for?

They've been doing lots of other stuff, perhaps most notably a ton of phone-bank work for the recent by-elections.

I'm not a member but I seem to get their newsletters from having expressed an interest in Corbyn at the time of his leadership bid, and they do seem to do a ton of political work 'on the ground'. That was also corroborated by a survey posted in here a few months ago, showing that Momentum members were the most locally-active cohort of the Labour party membership.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Pissflaps posted:

Helps explain what happened in Copeland.

Clearly every party that loses an election should cease electoral activities as being a waste of time.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Gonzo McFee posted:

Subway's doing their Apprenticeships to become a loving sandwich maker as well.

I think you mean Apprentice Sandwich Artist actually.

Because it's like painting, or something. :11tea:

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?


Government stance on encryptrion is not authoritarian enough: New Labour MP

quote:

But chairman of the home affairs select committee, Yvette Cooper, told Sky News's Sophy Ridge on Sunday it was "not enough" for the government to have more meetings with technology companies.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

namesake posted:

Honestly there's been a lot of really poor decision making going on here but Labour have actually managed to get themselves into a good spot on Brexit. No one can criticise them for opposing the will of the British people but by setting conditions which mean little changes for the worse or being able to state for the next 2 years that they won't support the particulars of Brexit as it comes out they'll win a lot of support pretty much no matter what happens.

I thought this was mildly amusing:

quote:

Sir Keir, who will outline Labour's demands in a speech on Monday, told BBC One's Andrew Marr Show: "If our tests are not met then we do not intend to support the deal the government comes back with."

Among the tests is one calling for the "exact same benefits" the UK has from the single market and customs union - words he said were used by Brexit Secretary David Davis in Parliament.

"The government can't turn around and say this is unachievable because it was David Davis... who said that," he said.

Making the government's own ridiculous rhetoric part of Labour's tests is definitely the right way to go at this point.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Any likelihood of Sinn Fein becoming the largest party on the re-run, since they came so close last time?

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Baron Corbyn posted:

53.3% of the English voted to leave. 52.5% of Wales voted to leave.

Yup, poor Welsh getting all the stick. Here's a handy chart JBreton:

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?


loving hell Ken. When everyone's finally stopped talking about anti-semitism in the Labour party every two seconds, and the leadership campaign is over, this is definitely the perfect time to be dragging up your pedantic argument that will never, ever, be presented well in a positive light in the media. Just :fuckoff:

Oberleutnant posted:

I aint buying or reading it to find out, but equally disgusting is the way they've splashed that prick's daughter all over their front page.

I'm also having to resist the temptation to direct too many disapproving scowls at the daughter for getting into bed with the Sun as well - it's not a one way process after all, but I suppose she's a victim too in her own way.

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

TinTower posted:

Basically I'm saying that giving him a standard sentence for manslaughter is ridiculous when the nature of the crime (being an admitted violation of IHL) should have been a major aggravating factor.

The Court Martial Appeals Court did exactly that (pdf warning) in their lengthy sentencing remarks, including all the aggravating and mitigating factors. They are crystal clear that Marine A retained a level of responsibility for his actions.

You can go look at [2017] EWCA Crim 190 here (another pdf warning) if you want the full details of why the murder conviction was quashed in all its glorious 30 pages.

Not directed specifically at you Tintower, but for all the people saying he wasn't suffering a real mental illness, it's real enough to be in the WHO's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, which you would know if you'd read the trial documents.

The three psychiatrists who provided separate reports were all highly experienced, one was considered a leader in his field, and two specialised in combat and/or homicide psychiatry with appointments at leading universities or institutions. The appeals court judgement made it clear that "the court martial had no psychiatric evidence at the time it convicted the appelant". The most experienced psychiatrist specifically addresses why the events in the video don't convey an accurate picture of the mental state of Marine A.

I detested the tabloid involvement in this case too, and Marine A's actions, but that doesn't mean the right answer is to ignore the judicial process when it produces a result you don't like. The judges have set out clearly why they felt the murder conviction was no longer safe - take issue with the reasons for that decision if you want, but just saying "raargh, he killed someone" isn't particularly productive. You might one day be glad of a judicial process that allows an appeals court to rule that a conviction was unsafe - undermining it (or mental health issues) does nobody any favours.

It's like reading the Daily Mail coverage of a court decision in here today, just from the other side of the political spectrum. :colbert:

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

TinTower posted:

Also if you notice in the sentencing summary, they actually weigh his prior service record against him breaking the Geneva Conventions.

That's like saying that Harold Shipman's murder sentence should have been weighed against the times he didn't murder grannies.

This is what happens every single time a judge makes a sentencing decision and includes previous good character in mitigation, surely? Someone who's committed their first crime at the age of 60 gets to have a more lenient sentence compared to someone who's spent their entire life as a criminal.

jabby posted:

Reading some of this makes me wish everybody present had been convicted of murder. Not sure if that's what you were going for.

Yeah, the whole thing made me feel pretty sick - very happy for you to draw whatever conclusions you like as long as you're in full posession of the facts. :) Note the sections about the extended isolation, exposed position, lack of support from superiors and the death of the junior officer, deaths in family and unit, sleep deprivation and why you can't draw conclusions about mental health from the video alone.

Out of interest, does anyone know what happened to the rest of the squad? I haven't really been able to google much, but I agree that they all look pretty culpable to me.

Prince John fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Mar 28, 2017

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

jabby posted:

Get a life, leftists!

Next up, which female leader has the nicest arse? Ten pages of expert opinion.

The weird thing about that front page was that, somehow, the article was even worse. Literally an entire page of drivel about the precise angle of vicar's daughter May's knees, Nicola Sturgeon's thumb and her seductive shoe dangling.

I don't think I saw the actual contents posted in here, so I'll post it here to avoid giving them too much traffic. It seriously takes a turn for the weird in the bolded bit.

quote:

Legend – or rather Hollywood – has it that the Scottish knight William Wallace daubed himself head-to-toe in blue woad paint to defeat the English army at the Battle of Stirling Bridge in 1297.

Centuries later, Nicola Sturgeon has gone one step further, arriving to greet her Southern nemesis Theresa May apparently dressed as the Scottish Saltire.

Intentional or otherwise, the First Minister’s natty blue suit with white piping and matching light-coloured stilettos were unmistakably reminiscent of the Scottish flag, a subliminal if not entirely subtle indication of her feelings towards Westminster.

May, for her part, was stateswomanlike in a stylish navy jacket, a patterned dress and her trademark leopard-print heels.

Clearly, Sturgeon was hoping to knock those spots off her.

Nevertheless, clearly eager to give the world a show of unity, the two women posed together, mirroring each other’s stance, two sets of hands clasped calmly on the arms of their respective chairs.

But while May’s fingers, elegant with their classic red nails, were relaxed and open, Sturgeon’s grip appeared somewhat tenser, her right thumb at an awkward angle, bearing down on her left index finger in a vice-like grip, as though having to use every ounce of self-control to stop herself poking her rival in that gimlet eye.

Their expressions, too, told very different stories. May is pictured laughing all the way to her eyes, her head thrown slightly back, her chin sinking into her neck. It’s a relaxed, natural pose, her gaze confident and aimed directly at the camera.

Sturgeon, by contrast, looks less comfortable. She is glancing off to one side, her eyes like two hard little chocolate buttons, her smile about as warm and welcoming as Loch Lomond on a winter’s day.

But what stands out here are the legs – and the vast expanse on show. There is no doubt that both women consider their pins to be the finest weapon in their physical arsenal. Consequently, both have been unsheathed.

May’s famously long extremities are demurely arranged in her customary finishing-school stance – knees tightly together, calves at a flattering diagonal, feet neatly aligned. It’s a studied pose that reminds us that for all her confidence, she is ever the vicar’s daughter, always respectful and anxious not to put a foot wrong.

Sturgeon’s shorter but undeniably more shapely shanks are altogether more flirty, tantalisingly crossed, with the dominant leg pointing towards her audience.

It’s a direct attempt at seduction: her stiletto is not quite dangling off her foot, but it could be. ‘Come, succumb to my revolutionary allure,’ she seems to be saying. ‘You know you want to.’


The message to the Scottish electorate is clear. They have a simple choice: on the one hand the reliable, measured, considerate and cautious politics of Mrs May and the safety of a Union that has endured for 300 years – on the other a wild, dangerous leap into the unknown, a glorious moment of rebellion which could all too easily lead to a lifetime of regrets.

My mind boggled that it was written by a woman, but then I discovered it was Sarah Vine and it boggled no more.

Prince John fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Mar 29, 2017

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

jabby posted:

Also for anyone who cares an adjustment disorder is a 'condition in which a person responds to a stressful event (such as an illness, job loss, or divorce) with extreme emotions and actions that cause problems at work and home'. It is normally self-limiting and symptoms persist no longer than six months after the stressor is removed.

It's been criticised for being a highly broad diagnosis, since by definition any display of extreme emotion or behaviour during a period of stress can be deemed evidence of an adjustment disorder. Some think the only reason it exists is as a useful label to enable stressed out patients to get therapy under their insurance. It's also highly convenient for Blackman, since it's short duration means he was not expected to display any symptoms during his psychiatric evaluation and is not expected to need any treatment for it now.

I've been thinking about this post more today and wanted to post a couple more thoughts on it.

Firstly, in general terms, I think you're on dicey ground with the "it's been criticised for being a highly broad diagnosis and is basically a convenient excuse" angle.

Mental health conditions are forever being minimised because of the layman's perception of how (in)valid they are, e.g. by the tabloids ("look at that scrounger, unable to work due to anxiety"), judgemental adults about kids with ADHD ("that child just needs some discipline") etc.

If it's acceptable to hold the view you stated about this mental condition in some cases (e.g. because the subject is a war criminal), then how can we criticise others for having the same beliefs about mental illnesses when the case might be a more deserving one? What's different from you claiming this is an excuse for Blackman, compared to the ATOS appraiser claiming that a diagnosis of anxiety or depression is someone just shirking from work?

Basically, it feels like a nasty slippery slope.

Secondly, I have practical issues with what you said, in how we deal with mental illnesses in court.

If I understood the gist of your post correctly, you're basically implying that the wool was pulled over the court's eyes (either through active collusion or incompetence) in order to reduce the conviction.

Now, you state the condition 'has been criticised for being a highly broad diagnosis.' Well, how would you like a hypothetical court to deal with this?

You claim the condition is overly broad, and is being used as an excuse for criminal behaviour. Well, the court heard evidence from three experts in the field. Blackman paid for one, but the court appointed this person:

quote:

Dr Philip Joseph has been a consultant forensic psychiatrist since 1989. He has very great experience having assessed over 800 persons charged with homicide. He is recognised as a leader in his field. He was instructed by the CCRC and, after reaching his own conclusion, considered the reports that Dr Orr and Professor Greenberg had written. He agreed with both. He was, as the members of the court know from their own experience of his evidence in other cases, an extremely impressive and impartial witness.

Why do you, as (I assume) a layman, think that you're able to see through the feeble mental health defence to the truth, when a pschiatric expert, appointed by the court specifically to come to his own conclusions, gets hoodwinked?

The psychiatrist providing the report submitted by the defence, although instructed by Blackman, is a doctor and professor of defence mental health at Kings College London and was described by the court as a 'very impressive witness'.

I would be surprised if these distinguished professionals in their field would be in the business of misleading the court to achieve a contrived verdict, which is the other side of what you're suggesting.

But, practically, what's the alternative open to the justice system? We have a mental health condition that's defined by the WTO. They accept evidence from the defence, but also hire their own expert to form his own opinion and cross check the submitted evidence.

How could this process be improved?

Would you prefer the judge has discretion to do what you've done, and arbitrarily place less weight on particular conditions that he doesn't like the sound of?

What happens when the recipient of this treatment is a poor granny rather than a war criminal?

There's a big can of worms about how we deal with mental health conditions in the judicial system lying under your post just waiting to be opened. We have to uphold the principles of justice for Blackman for the very same reason we punished him for shooting a wounded Taliban prisoner. You can't relax your standards just because the other person is a poo poo.

Your post had got me thinking a lot though, so thanks I guess. :)

Prince John fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 29, 2017

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?


Thanks, that's an interesting post and I'll have a read of that paper.

jabby posted:

The other side of my point is that you shouldn't strip someone of all their agency simply because they have a mental health condition. Even if you take at face value the psychiatrist's report, you still need to demonstrate that the reason that he shot the wounded fighter was because he wasn't in his right mind. As an argument against that, how about the fact that all of his squadmates talked about doing the same thing and to this day don't believe he did anything wrong? Are they all suffering from mental health conditions? Are the Daily Mail readers who think he was justified in what he did also mentally ill? Or is it perfectly plausible to believe that whether or not Blackman was suffering from adjustment disorder his decision to kill a wounded fighter was perfectly in keeping with his personality, beliefs, and the moral framework of himself and those around him?

I suppose I would say that the judges didn't strip him of his agency - they still explicitly say he was responsible for his actions, but they assessed this level of repsonsibility at 'medium' rather than 'high'. Let's not forget that he's still been found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to 7 years, and he was on 8 for murder. My impression was that one of the key reasons they thought the original conviction was unsafe was because the original judges didn't consider any psychiatric evidence at all at the first court martial, rather than just the fact he had this condition (I think there was also something in there where the judges considered the historical lying and why it wasn't relevant to particular aspects of the pschiatric evidence, but can't quite remember specifics).

I don't want to make light of the crimes, but when you ask whether all the squad were suffering from mental health conditions, I am tempted to say 'maybe'? Train a bunch of men to kill, stick them in an isolated outpost with inadequate manpower, leadership and support, and have other people shoot and kill them for 5 months, and I'm not entirely shocked they might want to take some revenge. The training is supposed to stop them from breaking the rules of war, and obviously failed miserably in this case, but I do regard them as being to some extent molded by their vocation and the circumstances and I wouldn't be surprised if they all were affected by mental health conditions to some degree. You'd obviously be a better judge of that than me, since my medical experience is nada. That belief is one of the reasons I half raise the idea of some alternative criminal justice system for veterans ITT from time to time, but I've not really spent the time to articulate it properly.

What about the wider point though, even if we keep it specifically to this condition? You said

quote:

"Adjustment disorder by comparison is an extremely subjective diagnosis even by the standards of psychiatry, since as I mentioned the only real criteria is to display extreme behaviour in the presence of a stressful situation"
but what's the solution to this for the courts system then, to avoid potential miscarriages of justice, if we take this as being one?

I'm really struggling to see an alternative, unless you would prefer to declassify this particular condition entirely? If we accept it's a valid condition, then perhaps guilty men getting lesser convictions from time to time is just the price we have to pay? Back to Blackstone's Formulation again? :)

Prince John fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Mar 29, 2017

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

TinTower posted:

As an aside, I'm surprised Marines B and C got off on the conspiracy to murder charge. They were fully complicit, and "just following orders" famously is not a valid defence to war crimes; they had an obligation to disobey any unlawful order from Blackman.

Yeah, agreed, it would be interesting to see the trial comments from them too. There's no getting away from the fact that they all seemed to be active participants, and the events outlined in your previous post are just loving nasty. :(

Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Edit ^^^ I thought it was a reasonable letter on the whole, apart from the security cooperation threat, but at least they're finally explicitly saying that the UK isn't expecting something for nothing, doesn't expect access to the single market etc.

I was slightly worried that Davies and Boris would be sat down at the grown-ups negotiating table asking for all the bullshit they promised in the campaign. At least they're not going to be laughed out of the room on day 1.

Comrade Cheggorsky posted:

has anyone said brexshit yet?

This gets my vote.

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Prince John
Jun 20, 2006

Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Thanks for the awesome post Haakman!

Bedshaped posted:

There will probably be 2 years of negotiation while May appears to be appeasing the hardliners and then boom; soft exit, freedom of travel and paying into the EU budget.

Don't hold your breath - she seems to have explicitly ruled these things out in her letter stating the UK's opening position.

  • Locked thread