Shinji117 posted:

Probably talking about the EP4 final debate where Beato goes all "everyone acknowledged Kinzo was in the room with them" and Battler then shoots down Kinzo-dragon with "Kinzo could be the inherited name of the family head, so people can acknowledge Kinzo without grandfather being alive".

Edit:
More precisely
Beato(Red): All of those who met at the family conference acknowledged the presence of Kinzo.

...back and forth about body doubles, which Beato dismisses with Red saying "No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. No matter what disguise might be used, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight!"

Battler(Blue): My theory is that Kinzo's name is passed on as a title of the Ushiromiya family head. Ushiromiya Kinzo was already dead. And he passed his name on to someone else. Everyone acknowledged it! And therefore, 'all of those present at the family conference acknowledged the existence of Kinzo'!

ZiegeDame posted:

Of course, given it was said in the final battle of EP 4, Kinzo is an inherited name has the same weight as Small Bombs.

It could also be that Krauss and Natsushi just came clean in EP 4 and wheeled Kinzo's corpse into the dining room, where everyone acknowledged his presence and death. Then the shooting began.

lotus circle posted:

"No! I must deny the witches!" Battler Ushiromiya shouted
Lambadelta said "No, Battler. You are the witches"
And then Battler Ushiromiya was the Endless Sorcerer.

Tired Moritz posted:

did not expect Battler to become a magical boy

little_firebird posted:

Viola the Mad posted:

Fates End posted:

Well, if we're posting fan-stuff and such, I might as well post the Magical Gohda Chef theory for Episode 2. I also have a reading of a story relevant to this part, but I think that would be best after next update or two (there's something very slightly spoilery in it).

"While attending to the family conference late in the evening, Rosa came by the kitchen and mentioned to Gohda that there was going to be a Halloween party for Maria in the chapel the next day. Thinking this was a wonderful idea, Gohda decided to make some special treats for the occasion, but because he was distracted he accidentally reached for the box marked "Tiny Food Bombs" instead of the sugar. He gave some of the treats to Rosa, who took them to her siblings. They all went to the chapel to check out the party since they'd probably be too tired in the morning, when the tiny food bombs exploded and killed everyone but Rosa, who wasn't hungry.

Later, Gohda was hanging out and he heard Jessica having an asthma attack. Rushing upstairs, he found Kanon with her and reached for her inhaler, but as he swung it over to give it to her she tripped and he accidentally impaled her in the back with it. Kanon assumed he was trying to kill her and they struggled, and Gohda accidentally pushed Kanon out the window. Realizing he was going to get in so much trouble for this, he quietly locked the window, planted a stake in Jessica's wound, and walked off whistling.

While bored, Gohda decided to show off a new knife trick he learned to Nanjo and Kumasawa. Disaster occurred. Genji suggested they blame Kanon for it so nobody would find out, and dump the bodies somewhere.

Later in the evening, George and Shannon refused to believe Gohda's claim that he was capable of juggling three Stakes of Purgatory at the same time. Upset, Gohda offered to prove it to them in Natsuhi's room. Tragically, he was not as proficient as he thought he was.

Genji called Battler upstairs to tell him everything. Battler couldn't accept this ridiculous scenario, and declared that it was more likely that a witch did it."

ZiegeDame posted:

So Battler has created a blank slate young woman in the hopes of raising her to be a duplicate of the Beatrice that died. He's really taking the wrong lessons from his grandfather, huh?

Cyouni posted:

I think it's less that and more a reflection of Kinzo. Kinzo created a sort of distorted reflection which was projected onto his children, and Battler reflects Rudolf in a way that might just approach Kinzo again.

So this brings a new look onto that first section from last update. The other question, I suppose, is wondering if that is only chick-Beatrice, or whether that was something that happened to human-Beatrice at some point as well.

ZiegeDame posted:

Hell, the Assassination of Sakutaro by the Coward Ushiromiya Rosa is probably one of the contributing factors that lead to the plan in the first place.

ZiegeDame posted:

It's also interesting that he decided to hang out with Genji and Kumasawa instead of Ronove and Virgillia, which just shows what terrible taste he has.

bman in 2288 posted:

Now, to be fair, Ronove and Virgillia are both shipping the hell out of him to his dad/father-figure, Ronove, the cook, and someone who has nothing to do with him in 1986. Unless Amasuka was Beatrice all along, or had something to do with her or something. But that'd have to be waaaaaaaaay out of left field, methinks.

Seriously, those two play a very dangerous shipping game. The kind that makes LITERALLY NO SENSE except for the Ronove thing, and even then, it's only on Ronove's side.

ProfessorProf posted:

"Gohda-san's a splendid chef. He's the only reason anyone'd ever want to come to this island."
"I am most honored. Battler-sama, I do hope that you look forward to your meals during your stay."
"I can't wait...! I'll be looking forward to it!"

little_firebird posted:

idonotlikepeas posted:

Old-school mittenhands art:




Faces and eyes are still very similar.

idonotlikepeas posted:

Oh, I agree with all of that. Sayo is always the prime mover. That doesn't mean she murdered anyone, though. It's hard to say how we could have gotten to Battler's parents as the killers, because that timeline has not been presented yet. I could come up with scenarios that explain it, but they'd just be inventing things from whole cloth. You might say, I have a theory about the whodunnit based on some evidence, but not the howdunnit or the whydunnit yet. (I suspect the why part involves large stacks of cash.)

Robindaybird posted:

Obviously, it's Dooru-chan, the Witch of Entrances and Exits! A witch whose ability concerns the matter of how the absence and presence of pathways and people affect the story.

oath2order posted:

The plot twist in episode 8 is that this has just been one extremely involved layton puzzle the whole time

ProfessorProf posted:

Cyouni posted:

Well presumably the answer is referencing two inside the space occupied by one, which would be a hint towards X/Beatrice or possibly Shannon/Kanon. Interestingly enough, according to this interpretation it's only two inside the space one should occupy, instead of three (which would possibly be a hint at Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice).

Tired Moritz posted:

Yikes if actual murderer Natsuhi is in second place.

alcharagia posted:

Rosa doesn't deserve Kyrie.

Fates End posted:

**Snip. Thank you very much for the excellent original Umineko sprites. I unironically love them**

bman in 2288 posted:

Keep in mind that this specific instance of adultery leads to Ange getting beaten up by Yakuza, and nearly shot to death. Indirectly, yes, but it was a factor.

I had an idea about the coins in the cup riddle, beyond getting ice cream for solving a simple riddle designed for children. Sure, it could still apply to the theory that S=K=B, but doesn't it seem like a bit of meta-narrative on Battler's part, about the actual story of Umineko? The story of a family conference, being told in what's basically an MST3K episode gone wrong, which is being read in a book by one of the family conference's character's sister. Leads me to think that it's not just foreshadowing, but elaboration of the situations in Rokkenjima.

Anyways, that's my two cents.

bman in 2288 posted:

Non parlo spagnolo.

ZiegeDame posted:

This episode also contains a friendly reminder that somebody (Kanon?) pushed a servant down the stairs for poo poo-talking Beatrice.

quote:

"Uu-. Beatrice isn't scary. At least, as long as you respect her. If you don't..."
"...kihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi! Right, Shannon?!"
"Uh, yes. That rumor does exist among the servants as well. Rumors about servants patrolling at night bumping into mysterious silhouettes... or gold butterflies..."

Forgall posted:

lotus circle posted:

Erika Furudo, fiction's greatest detective.

bman in 2288 posted:

Considering that Rosa's business was in hot water when she was alive, I'm finding it extremely difficult to believe that one of their products were still being sold 12 years later. I'm of the opinion that the those dolls have nothing to do with Rosa or her company.

MonsterEnvy posted:

Her companies name is Anti Rosa.

oath2order posted:

I will say that the parallels between this thread and the Umineko fanbase as it existed between 2009-2011 are pretty uncanny.

oath2order posted:

It's many, many things. I would say details at this point would be spoilers. They'd taint the sample if nothing else.

Moon-chan is something I totally forgot about--it was basically the fandom nickname for Jessitrice.

Cyouni posted:

I think I can put an end to the Shannon=Kanon theory.

Shannon is not Kanon. For that to be true, they would have to hold two master keys. There are five, one for each servant. The only master keys are the ones held by the servants, one key each. There are only five master keys. As Shannon and Kanon were only holding one master key each, they are not the same person.

Cyouni posted:

I'll keep an eye out for that section as I continue rereading, but if you find it, please note it. Edit: The reactions you noted sound a lot like Kinzo's study door during episode 5 and how Gohda kept mentioning the ladder.

alcharagia posted:

beauty

Qrr posted:

The main reason I'm suspicious of this is that we have Battler creating a game to troll Erika (or at least I hope it's to troll Erika, that's what I would want to do). And it seems like the best way to do that is to imply something ridiculous and get her to believe it.

So while it's possible that Shannon and Kanon are the same body, almost all of the evidence for it comes from this episode. There are a couple of things in the past that make sense with it, and it doesn't seem to be contradicted, but frankly there are a ton of things that aren't contradicted when you distrust everything that wasn't seen by a detective or in red.

And it makes things so much more complicated. You need them to get around the house quickly, to change clothes quickly, and we need to figure out what the heck Natsuhi knows or thinks about it, because she definitely pays attention to the servants.

BurningStone posted:

I'm not going to argue against anybody's pet theory, but I don't see the point of Shannon = Kanon. Does it solve any of the mysteries?

witchcore ricepunk posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNTBb1u6UGg

ZiegeDame posted:

But why did Hideyoshi tell everyone he was looking at Shannon's mutilated corpse in the shed when there was nothing there and Shanon-as Kanon was standing in the same room?

ZiegeDame posted:

There were five corpses with mutilated heads. There was a very recognizable Krauss with half his face smashed to a pulp. There is no way anyone (anyone as smart as Eva anyway) saw this and thought these murders were a fake.


While Kanon has been established as an expert at sneaking off unnoticed, I'm gonna call bullshit on Kanon opening the door, sneaking off, changing clothes, and then somehow faking missing half a face, without anyone even noticing he was gone.