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idonotlikepeas posted:Battler has produced red truth of his own before, so it's not so much that it's off-limits for him. It seems like it's a question of which side is being argued and what method they're using. Battler is arguing for the human side, or, if you like, the mystery side, so he has to solve the problem using human methods - it's no good saying "I know witches don't exist, because a witch told me and magically guaranteed that it was so". A different standard applies. Erika actually did all this bizarre poo poo with tape and crawling up the walls and listening to Battler breathe like the creepiest fucker ever; if all she had to do was ask for Bern to say a bunch of things in red, why would she have bothered? Even in this last stupid round of bullshit, she's going through the motions of searching the house. The arguments of both sides can be accepted as truth, but they have to get there in different ways. Except that's the thing - Erika didn't do a single thing to create an alibi for anyone in the mansion. She wasn't in the mansion. She wasn't even the one that sealed Genji's door. The only reason the people in the mansion have alibis is because of red text. Same for Krauss. In fact, when Bern stated in red that they had alibis and someone complained, her only justification is that the red was true because it's red. So frankly I don't know why Erika did all this bizarre poo poo. Presumably because her reason to exist is to amuse Bern and Bern is amused by her antics. (I also don't know why she didn't seal the windows from the inside, because seriously she had no reason to climb on the outside of the house).
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Apr 19, 2017 03:10
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Cyouni posted:Fine, let's play this game. The Genji thing, sure. As for the others, maybe if that had been the argument used it would be ok. But that wasn't the argument they used - the argument they used was "The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counterargument". Actually, she said that in red, so she has straight up in red contradicted her right to ignore Battler's red truth. There's nothing in there about it only applying to witches. quote:They also acknowledge that Krauss and Kinzo were capable of committing the crime, and that's denied by Natsuhi in what's pretty much this conversation: Natsuhi does not have the ability to say that Krauss and Kinzo didn't do it. She may not want to put the blame on them, but what she wants doesn't matter when determining the guilty party.
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Apr 19, 2017 04:00
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ZiegeDame posted:I'd say Natsushi has some pretty conclusive evidence she could present to prove Kinzo didn't do it. Yes, but she's unwilling to present that for the same reason she doesn't want to try to put the crime on him. Cyouni posted:See the quote I showed above? The red has been noted as unusable as a detective technique, by Knox's 2nd. And once again, they literally use the red as a detective technique there. Yes, they could have had other explanations for why they said that in red - if they'd said it because it would require an 8 person conspiracy or some very blind people, that might be ok. But that wasn't the explanation given. The red was given and when evidence was requested the response was "Nope, no evidence at all". quote:Actually, what she wants does matter, because the red truth is on the same meta level as the question as to whether Natsuhi wants to make Krauss the culprit or not. Red truth is true. Whether Natsuhi wants to make Krauss the culprit isn't. I'm not sure why you relate the two. And there is no evidence (besides supernatural evidence) that Krauss is even dead. Whether he died soon after Natsuhi woke up or between 24:00 and 1:00, it doesn't matter - there's no proof at all of either case. Lord Koth posted:No matter how much people complain, the established rule for a multiple games now is that only witches are allowed to use the Red Truth. So continuing to complain about how Battler's use of it was shot down due to it being completely unsubstantiated while the witches can do so is silly. You have to accept that fact, or this argument is not going to go anywhere. The established rule was that only witches were ABLE to use red truth. However, Battler is now able to use red truth, and his red truth is just as true as the witch red truth. It's not silly to expect consistency. There's nothing that would make his red truth illegal that wouldn't also make every other red truth illegal.
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Apr 19, 2017 08:28
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Cyouni posted:So Erika builds up evidence, and confirms the validity of the evidence (and absence of "unknown drug X" by getting Bern to repeat it), in the same way Battler used to have to require Beato to do. It's not used as a detective's tool, it's used as an anti-stupidity tool. Once again, we're kind of talking past each other. I can accept Erika creating seals and having them verified by red truth. I can accept Erika listening to a silent room for 8 hours straight and getting red truth out of it. What I can't accept is Krauss - Erika did nothing for that. There's no evidence to confirm the validity of. There's no evidence at all And I can't accept the red for everyone in the manor. Because once again, they didn't provide any evidence for it to confirm the validity of. If they'd approached it differently it could have worked, but instead they went straight to the red instantly, and when asked for evidence they refused because red. And other people using red is absolutely fact per the rules of the game. Remember Battler trying to say something that wasn't true in red? He failed. Red text is true, whoever says it.
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Apr 19, 2017 09:26
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whitehelm posted:I know we've had a lot of arguing about the first twilight since then, but The "dead" people may not have beent dead. We know they die by the time of the trial, and that no one looking at their corpse would be confused. Neither of those is relevant, especially if there's a conspiracy. So any of them could have done it.
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Apr 21, 2017 01:44
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Cyouni posted:Well, there were really only two times people split from the group. Once, with Hideyoshi and Natsuhi, and once when they broke into Kinzo's study, with Rudolf, Kyrie, Gohda, and I think Shannon. Do you contend that the second group went and killed the "hiding" people during that trip? Well, I think one of the hiding people killed all of the other hiding people who weren't already dead - I'm accusing one of the "dead" people of being a killer so why not take it all the way. So then there's just the question of who killed them. Erika split off from the group after they found Hideyoshi's body so she could track down Natsuhi, so there were no eyes on everyone else and maybe someone left to kill the killer. As an alternative possibility for Hideyoshi's murderer, there's the chance that everything he did was acting for Natsuhi's benefit and there was no killer in the room at the time. Erika never looked at the body, he just got carried off to an unknown location, because while Erika may be THE detective by red text she certainly lacks the qualifications to be A detective. Then he was murdered by someone else (maybe Rudolf or Gohda, who were the ones carrying him, maybe someone else). Or for that matter he was killed by Eva, who definitely ran in first - the others explicitly could not tell what was going on in the room when she initially went to him. Motivation for that gets difficult, though. Skylight posted:Knox's SECOND. "It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique." If she is actually playing by the rules, she won't do that...hopefully. I still contend that they aren't following the rules, and that part of their definition of being a witch is "we don't have to follow the rules". We even have examples of Beatrice doing that - she'll assert in red that a room is a closed room and nothing could get in from outside, then claim that she sent a magic stake girl in from outside to kill them. Qrr fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Apr 21, 2017 |
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Apr 21, 2017 04:24
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EagerSleeper posted:I think name shenanigans are an alright theory, especially since it's been shown that Shannon's name of Sayo, and Kanon being relunctant to reveal his real name make it seem that secondary are a big deal. But I do appreciate the image of Krauss getting loving fed up, carrying a corpse that has been dead for a very long time around him down the stairs, saying "here, is this what you all wanted to see?!", and then killing everyone with shotguns. But that would include Natsuhi in that scenario though... We know there's more than one Battler, so name shenanigans could definitely be legit.
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Apr 21, 2017 08:47
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thetruegentleman posted:Specifically, Lambda can't do things that Beatrice's game wouldn't allow, so the game is definitely solvable; if it weren't, Lambda also wouldn't have told Battler that she expected him to become even more interesting. What's interesting about someone failing at a game they can't win? I think Lambda and Bern are exactly the sort of people who would enjoy watching someone try when they are guaranteed to fail.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:59
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CottonWolf posted:But Krauss and Natsuhi are their masters at that point, aren't they? Battler solved the epitaph. Krauss and Natsuhi were trying to argue about whether he got the headship or not, but I think the servants would be pretty clear on it. So he's the new boss. Also I am curious as to how gold truth isn't just red truth with a coat of paint. I guess we'll find out. It certainly seems like a supernatural source of evidence.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:10
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Rodyle posted:There are at minimum two more. Ah, but becoming a witch is the worst thing a detective can do. So if we wish to be detectives, we must spurn witchery and, therefore, mittenhands.
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Apr 25, 2017 00:36
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Cyouni posted:I continue to be amazed at the depth of Battler's incompetence. How the hell did he manage to trap himself inside his own closed room? That takes impressive levels of skill. I think the key to that is probably the question of why he's plural. Why is Battler by himself "all of you"? Also I share people's opinion that this is getting annoying. We just got through a whole episode of Bern/Sue bullshit and Battler finally achieved a victory. And then this episode starts and nope, Battler lost again, surprise! Feh.
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Apr 28, 2017 19:01
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Cyouni posted:If there's complete victory/defeat before the 8th episode, the game can't continue. So this defeat is both merely a temporary setback and foreseeable, as Battler stomping over his unresisting opponents for three episodes would be amusing, but quite boring. So I don't know why people are so up in arms about a result that should be unsurprising. There are things between "Battler stomping over his unresisting opponents" and "Battler is trapped and about to lose everything he gained 5 minutes ago". I would prefer those.
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Apr 28, 2017 22:55
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CottonWolf posted:
He did kind of end the last chapter by arguing that he had killed 6 people. It was mostly a thought experiment, but still.
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May 3, 2017 09:21
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ZiegeDame posted:It has to at least mean that Beatrice thinks she is incapable of love, which is a thing Kanon frets over a lot and Shannon does not. But if different personalities are different people that might not matter. Beatrice is incapable of love, Shannon is capable, and if they're in the same body that could still hold true.
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May 3, 2017 19:08
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ZiegeDame posted:It's also interesting that he decided to hang out with Genji and Kumasawa instead of Ronove and Virgillia, which just shows what terrible taste he has. Hey, Genji is great. And... uh... maybe he really likes mackerel?
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May 4, 2017 04:57
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Another question, if they're the same person (or share a body, whatever), will we get red decrementing the total number of people or will we get more "unknown person X"? Probably the Decalogue says no unknown person X allowed, if Battler is going to follow it. And the "I" there is Battler. We don't know what Erika saw, and Shannon was behind her.
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May 5, 2017 18:34
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ZiegeDame posted:Upon further reading, it seems the "I" there refers to Player-Battler not Piece-Battler, for whatever that's worth. Oof, that's even worse. Player Battler has seen tons of witches and stakes and bunnies and demons and magic. He's not a reliable witness at all.
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May 5, 2017 18:54
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Knoxs 8th doesn't really work like that in the story. It says clues arent valid unless presented, but it doesn't require that the detective notice or present them. They're "presented" when we see them in the story. Also remember that Erika is really bad at being a detective, and that a cornerstone of her previous case was that the bodies were hidden by someone who was dead the whole time. And that we've previously seen her ability to ignore evidence that doesn't help her case. I mean, her process of pretending Kinzo was in Natsuhis room required that she "prove" that Kinzo wasn't anywhere else while intentionally not trying to prove anything about Natsuhis room directly. Because she is terrible.
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May 5, 2017 19:11
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Cyouni posted:Dlanor disagrees with you. Clues must have been shown. Not clues must have been shown to the detective. A more standard Knoxs 8th would require the detective notice, but this one only requires that readers see the clues.
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May 5, 2017 19:23
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ZiegeDame posted:Here's another one for Knox's 8th. In Episode 3, if Kanon=Shannon, the following must have happened: The adults (read: liar Nanjo) finish examining Shannon's body, and move on to the second floor. Shannon now must get up, completely change clothes, hair, etc. and sneak off to the Chapel, which has been unlocked this whole time ( can't actually find mention of a magic circle drawn on the chapel door at least), lock the chapel from the inside and play dead again. All this in the space of time it takes the adults to find the other four bodies. Did anyone ever actually go back to the room where Shannons body was found? We can't really fault lack of evidence if no one ever looked for it. We've had a lot of people leaving bodies alone both because they don't like the reminder and because they don't want to disturb the crime scene. That gives a lot of leeway.
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May 5, 2017 19:42
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ZiegeDame posted:
This is actually the opposite of that. There are a number of clues about them being the same person. Evidence of changing clothes or lack of missing bodies could have contradicted that, but instead didn't. We don't get any clues at all about a clothing change (aside from the general clues that they're the same person), but we also don't get any clues that there wasn't a clothing change.
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May 5, 2017 21:41
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"Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!!"
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ZiegeDame posted:The hell are you even trying to say here? You can't Devil's Proof Knox's 8th. That's like, the whole point of Knox's 8th, to stop people from arguing "Well you can't prove that it didn't happen". We know for a fact that not everything that happened has been shown. Because duh. So if we have evidence that they are the same person and we posit that they changed clothes, you can't point at that and say "well why wasn't there evidence that they changed clothes". Our evidence that they changed clothes is that they were in one set of clothing in one scene and a different in the next. You may as well argue that someone wasn't the murderer because there's no evidence that they had a stake before the murders. It's not relevant. Cyouni posted:Read the red again. It specifically calls out clues shown to Erika in that quoted section. It calls out clues shown to Erika in that specific scenario. That's not in the Knoxs 8th that this game uses generally.
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May 5, 2017 22:42
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Cyouni posted:You're arguing that Shannon and Kanon are the same person because there are two bodies in two different sets of clothing, therefore they must have changed clothes quickly between the bodies being discovered. No. I'm arguing that they're the same person based on other evidence (including the conversation in this update). The two bodies were brought up as a possible counter, and I'm arguing that they aren't a strong counter. quote:Cite your proof that the game can lie to the detective-piece by showing things that don't exist. I can prove that's not allowed to happen. Where did I argue that the detective was shown things that didn't exist?
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May 5, 2017 23:41
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Cyouni posted:If you argue that Erika wasn't given a clue about Kanon=Shannon, then she has to be shown things that don't exist. She's been in the same room as both of them numerous times, and has seen them as separate people. Has she ever interacted with both of them in the same scene? If we see a person and Erika doesn't talk about them or interact with them, then we don't have evidence that they're there. We aren't seeing from her viewpoint.
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May 6, 2017 03:52
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Tired Moritz posted:Are there any characters that are "real" that aren't Shannon/Kanon that has magic powers? I don't think Genji had done any magical stuff despite being furniture too. Krauss uses a 1000% punch to defeat goat-kun. That follows the rules of anime, which isn't quite magic but is related.
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May 6, 2017 22:04
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Cyouni posted:My original thought was the one that generates ice cream. I suppose that's because they didn't want to force the answer to be too easy thanks to limiting the number of moves. Well, Erika does have one incredible skill. No, it's not detectiving, she's terrible at that. But she's fantastic at annoying people. Also we see the problems of a culture where you can't complain when someone is being a jerk.
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May 8, 2017 22:39
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MonsterEnvy posted:Well in another situation they could kick her out. The Issue is that she is stranded with them. Rosa didn't even mention she was being a bit rude because she was a guest. I don't think they'd be willing to kick her out.
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May 8, 2017 23:27
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Tired Moritz posted:Magic is real if you believe. However, magic is not real. Given this, we can prove that I don't believe. That's the power of the contrapositive!
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May 9, 2017 02:49
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Fabulousvillain posted:Anyone else remember in Episode 1 in the last thread when almost everyone hated Maria because of "Uu-"ing and being immature for her age, followed immediately by an update of Rosa slapping her for "Uu-"ing and being immature for her age, and then the thread stopped whining about her all of a sudden? Good times. Maria has an annoying verbal tic. It has a solid justification in the story (and by that I mean that she's developmentally challenged, her believing it's a magic incantation to make mommy love her is a result of that), but it is still annoying. There's a big difference between a kid who is acting the wrong age because the writer doesn't get kids and a kid who is acting the wrong age because they are, mentally, the wrong age.
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May 9, 2017 07:03
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EagerSleeper posted:"But does Rosa deserve Kyrie's smooching?" is the real question. RoKy can still be in play. Weren't you listening to Erika? The mystery novel has been solved. It's done. There's no point in writing new mystery novels because they're the same as old mystery novels. So obviously they have every mystery novel trope or else Erika would be wrong, which could never happen.
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May 9, 2017 07:52
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Erika is a jerk about it, but on the other hand Maria's belief in Beatrice isn't just a harmless belief that helps her cope with her crummy life. We've seen repeatedly that when people die she doesn't care because she thinks they'll be resurrected, and I'm not sure if we have solid evidence of this but a lot of theories have assumed that she'd be willing to be an accomplice to murder as long as she believed it was Beatrice doing the killing, and that seems very likely. Basically it's less a belief in Santa Claus and more a belief in Charles Manson. Or at least a combination of the two.
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May 12, 2017 20:05
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resurgam40 posted:It sure is. Departing from the Sakutarou discussion, I'd just like to point out what a pathetic rear end in a top hat you'd have to be to even want to win against a child. Who defiles a little girl'sz dream and smiles about it? A horrible dick, that's who. I'm with Battler here. I mean, if Maria gave the story about the candy coming out of the cup in red, the thread would totally have tried to solve it without witches, which aren't real. We wouldn't have done it to Maria's face (for a variety of reasons), but on the other hand that also means we wouldn't be giving Maria the ability to defend her story at all. Erika is in some ways the embodiment of us, except that she's ruder because we get to see the reactions of all the imaginary people she's hurting (I mean the extra imaginary ones).
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May 13, 2017 02:23
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"I don't. People are allowed to think anything they want inside their hearts. In fact, I think you were all the more commendable for not letting it show on the outside." Well isn't that an interesting perspective, Shannon. It's commendable that even though he secretly hated them, he didn't let it show? I wonder, do you have experience in that area? Honestly this episode is laying it on so thick that it feels like a trap. Things that aren't on red aren't always real and so on. Oh, and while Jessica seems like she has fewer issues than George, George really isn't that bad ("I realized that I had nice guy syndrome and that I should try seriously courting a woman" is pretty reasonable). And a lot of what we have been shown has Kanon much more broken than Shannon - he takes being non-human way more seriously. Qrr fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 18:49
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"Hmph, that's not bad. A splendid witch trial. If the spiderweb touches her and she gets burned, then she's an evil spirit, not a witch. And if nothing happens, then it proves she's just a human. In other words, whether she's burned or not, it will prove that the Golden Witch doesn't exist. The legend of the witch is nothing more than the legend of Akujikishima re-boiled with a new face on it." Erika. Erika, please. We know you're incompetent, you don't need to keep proving it. You make a good point about the legends fusing together, and then you just kind of get confused and spew this mess out. Erika would have done very well at the Salem witch trials. She'd be very happy with dropping someone into a lake and then seeing if they drowned to prove they were a witch. Though since the actual goal of the trials was to get rid of people they didn't like she'd be the first one they tried it on. Simply by the existence of the water itself, drowning of this level is possible for Furudo Erika!
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May 17, 2017 19:23
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Cyouni posted:
But she hasn't really made that point. She's pointed out overlap between the two. Possibilities: Beatrice isn't real/is human. This is the true one, but we can't jump straight to it. Beatrice is affected by spiderwebs, either by coincidence or by some interaction with the evil spirits. Beatrice isn't affected by spiderwebs, and the servants confused the legends themselves. I bet people who heard about platypi second hand believed all sorts of weird things about them, but that didn't disprove platypi. Because that's really what Erika is trying to argue - either it lays eggs and it's a bird, or it doesn't and it's a mammal! Either way, I've proven that platypi don't exist! Heck, maybe Beatrice is a human with a silk allergy and the results got exaggerated. Why not fill out all the possibilities.
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May 17, 2017 22:36
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Seems like a pretty standard locked room so far. Options to get out include the chain never being set at all, the person leaving the room after the chain is removed somehow, and the chain being set by someone who is known to be in the room (generally the victim). Presumably secret passages are still not permitted. The window hasn't been closed off by red but it has been closed off by being a super weird window and, presumably, by not being broken when the room is opened. The other obvious way to get out of the room is to be a witch. But one of the constraints of witches is that they can never do anything that a human couldn't also do, because they're not real. Very sad. While both Beatrice and Shannon could have been trapped in a room, they would not have needed to get out without removing the chain. That's murder mystery closed room rules.
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May 19, 2017 21:43
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Perhaps Kanon and Shanon are one body but are two servants. So if they do have two keys, the red would be satisfied. It would also be weird but hey, that's fine. Honestly I think the Kanon = Shanon thing will turn out to be a red herring, possibly created by Battler. It doesn't seem impossible given what we've seen, and I'm willing to argue for it, but it frankly requires bullshit on the level of small bombs and not trusting anything at all that isn't in red. It also doesn't really help resolve much if it's true, mostly it just raises more questions.
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May 20, 2017 01:26
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Cyouni posted:I'm pretty sure eliminating "key is removed from envelope between receipt by Maria and when we saw Rosa open the envelope" as the possibility was the whole reason that red was dropped. That was Battler's original theory, after all. But the reason the red was dropped isn't relevant - often, the red is dropped to mislead, so we need to work with what it literally says and not with the characters' interpretations of it. If Rosa herself opened the envelope, and she did it after midnight ("the next day"), then the red was fulfilled. Though honestly it's much easier to assert that the door wasn't locked in the first place.
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May 22, 2017 01:23
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ZiegeDame posted:Knox's 8th still applies. If someone were hiding in the room, there'd be some evidence. Since Battler looked around the room a bit and didn't see anything, well... up to you if you're satisfied with your answer, really. I don't really understand what the limits are on Knox's 8th. For example, when we see someone "unlock" a door in the narrative, and we later theorize that they were pretending to unlock it and it was never really locked, is that a violation of the 8th since we don't have evidence that they were lying? How far can we go outside of the story as we saw it? Especially when most of the evidence we were presented with is unreliable, due to unreliable narrator/Knox's 9th. And it doesn't really matter that Battler looked around. This version of Knox's 8th doesn't mean anything special for the detective. For that matter, do we even know if the nonalogue applies to the first 4 episodes? (It's not a decalogue because 5 is absent)
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May 22, 2017 09:13
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EagerSleeper posted:This thread is magic. The main reason I'm suspicious of this is that we have Battler creating a game to troll Erika (or at least I hope it's to troll Erika, that's what I would want to do). And it seems like the best way to do that is to imply something ridiculous and get her to believe it. So while it's possible that Shannon and Kanon are the same body, almost all of the evidence for it comes from this episode. There are a couple of things in the past that make sense with it, and it doesn't seem to be contradicted, but frankly there are a ton of things that aren't contradicted when you distrust everything that wasn't seen by a detective or in red. And it makes things so much more complicated. You need them to get around the house quickly, to change clothes quickly, and we need to figure out what the heck Natsuhi knows or thinks about it, because she definitely pays attention to the servants.
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May 22, 2017 20:43
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