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Aumanor, this is what convinced me. Kanon and Shannon appear in the same room throughout episode 5, but if you notice the language in the narrative, it looks like Battler is actually the POV. He placed Shannon behind her, outside of her view. You can also see that in the fact that he "saw" the dead bodies during the first twilight, while Erika did not. Her objectivity doesn't really matter if she's not confirmed as actually observing a given scene.ProfessorProf posted:The number of humans on this island has returned to 18... 'I' glanced around at the humans in the parlor. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 18:30 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 18:28
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ZiegeDame posted:At the end of episode 4, Beatrice says in red (sorta) "Why am I unable to love anyone." It's weird. I kind of feel like maybe my arguments only make sense to me because they feel really true to me on an emotional and psychological level. I think this way of living and framing one's world is possible because I've done it—am doing it. I'm not sure how to articulate it in a way that makes sense to people who aren't like me? 
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May 3, 2017 18:48
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 y'all. Fuckin right!
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May 5, 2017 17:51
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CottonWolf posted:Hah. I was sure it was too insane to be true. I mean, the implications of this being true are really awful, horrible, and no good. But I do feel really validated by this: the kind and empathic portrayal of a person who seeks happiness in their own, weird ways while dancing around a core trauma. I guess we have Battler to thank for that. On a TMI level, I'm feeling a bit jealous of Sayo—someone actually, truly "sees" her. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 18:20 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 18:04
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Hmm. That would definitely clarify the whole "gold is meaningless to this child" conversation between Battler and Virgilia.
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May 5, 2017 21:59
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I was already in a mood but now... oh man.
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May 6, 2017 00:20
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Neopie posted:Okay. Unrelated, but I have to ask,what's with your username? A few years ago, I posted in a FYAD name change thread and Zach (I think) stuck me with this. I just haven't had a good idea for a name change, plus I can't justify spending the money to do it. v  v
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 02:06 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 02:01
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Neopie posted:give me a week and I will personally paypal you the money so I never have to see your username again. I mean this with all respect, you're one of the best posters in this thread, every post you make is fantastic, but OH MY GOD I CANNOT STAND YOUR USERNAME I HAVE CONVULSIONS EVERY TIME I SEE IT Hahaha! Thanks? To be honest, I kind of feel that way about the name too, so I usually didn't post much. Sorry for inadvertently creeping you out. I guess everyone's been making fun of my name in the Discord chat, huh?
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May 6, 2017 03:45
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Y'all have no idea how long I stared at their portraits before coming out with Shannon=Kanon=Beatrice.
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May 6, 2017 06:00
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Kind of feels a bit overreaching to talk too much about this, but there seems to be plenty of room for Sayo to be intersex—and maybe the weird gender poo poo going on with the character is them trying to figure out what kind of presentation is more comfortable. I'm not interested in talking about the specifics of their body, because that's not important here. Sayo being intersex (but possibly raised as a girl for the first part of their life) could be why the personalities conflict so much despite being interdependent; why "Why am I unable to love" is in red, if "love" means something more sexual; why Shannon and Kanon are portrayed with somewhat gender-essentialized personalities; and why the character is so obsessed with keeping to rules. All of those anxieties and traits could be a reaction to being forced into a binary gender at birth, and later rejecting it but not having the vocabulary or support to understand what that means. Gender and its constraints are definitely strong themes in this work (as well as in many witch tales), so having the core character be outside, but looking in in multiple ways would be totally fitting. I don't mean to take away from a trans reading of the character, which I think would also be an amazing outcome for this story! Just some thoughts I had while catching up on the latest couple of pages. (Also hi, it's TCL! But not anymore. WR? Wrrryyyy?! I'm so awful at naming things.) witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 21:14 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 21:11
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 "Bring it on!! Chopsticks, chopsticks, haah haah!!"Whoa, girl.
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May 8, 2017 14:34
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Cyouni posted:Well presumably the answer is referencing two inside the space occupied by one, which would be a hint towards X/Beatrice or possibly Shannon/Kanon. Interestingly enough, according to this interpretation it's only two inside the space one should occupy, instead of three (which would possibly be a hint at Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice). ooooh poo poo 
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May 8, 2017 21:10
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:I really hope the split personality/intersex/transsexual theories are off base. I'm kinda tired of seeing those characteristics applied to murderers in fiction. There are so many other characters with solid motives that don't boil down to otherizing. We don't have to keep going with the Celluloid Closet theory if any exposure is good exposure. Sorry for upsetting you! I totally get where you're coming from. Characters like Buffalo Bill and Lois Einhorn (from Ace Ventura) are awful and frustrating and represent a complete Pyrrhic victory as far as trans representation goes. So far, I have faith that the story will treat its central character well, regardless of what's going on with her. I mean, the text is really sympathetic to her, given that Battler, the audience surrogate, has literally fallen in love with her. My small hope is that idonotlikepeas' theory that she is not the true killer is correct. To quote EagerSleeper, porque no los dos? witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 17:31 on May 10, 2017 |
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May 10, 2017 17:28
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 "C, could this be... magic...?"Nooooo-ho-hoooo, she's so cute!  Anyway, popping out of my work haze* to back up resurgam, who it looks like has been one of the sole holdouts of S=K=B since I've been gone. What is wrong with you people?? Now it seems like the narration is reallllly pushing that as a possibility, riiiiight? ProfessorProf posted:Both furniture were in relationships of mutual love. There shouldn't have been any need for a miracle any longer. So why... do they still desire some miracle? And on top of that, the single brooch was portrayed as bestowing only a single miracle. It felt almost as though Shannon was hesitating because, if she used up that miracle for herself, Kanon's chances at love would be automatically sealed away for eternity... Usually, love is not a zero-sum game. Just because I love someone doesn't mean my sister can't love someone—even if the object of our affection were the same person, or something absurd like that. That doesn't mean she wouldn't have a chance to steal them away or even just find someone else to love. So why would Shannon's success in love lead to Kanon 1) having to quit Rokkenjima and 2) being unable to love "for eternity"? Let me spell this out: if Shannon marries George, she will essentially take over Sayo's body. There will be no space for Kanon to exist, even as a wacky brother-in-law roommate. He will not be able to love, because he will not be able to exist. And the same applies to the alternate scenario, wherein Kanon succeeds and Shannon must disappear. Now that the mechanics are reasoned out, I have to wonder—what does Sayo want? I think one of the tragedies of this situation is that, as her personalities progress further and further, the person at their core becomes less able to deal with their own poo poo. To me, marrying George and being with Jessica, while posited as good outcomes here, almost seem like attempts to wallpaper over problems that Sayo has still barely been able to face head-on. (I mean gently caress, look at the entire violently passive aggressive premise of the games.) One thing I know for sure is that you can't send your crippling emotional problems to another room and pretend that they're not there. Oh helll no. *also I maybe had to take a tiny mental health break away from the thread  snowflake amirite
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 16:22 on May 22, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 16:16
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alcharagia... you made so laugh so hard just now. Perfection 
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May 22, 2017 17:36
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BurningStone posted:I'm not going to argue against anybody's pet theory, but I don't see the point of Shannon = Kanon. Does it solve any of the mysteries? I think it definitely solves the really sticky mysteries in episode 3: the closed room chain, George's murder, Jessica wandering off, Nanjo's murder.
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May 23, 2017 04:31
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Cyouni posted:I suppose the other question is - what mysteries does it solve that aren't already solved by alternatepersonality-Beatrice? 
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May 23, 2017 07:12
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Yeah, I definitely do not think that anyone knew about Shannon and Kanon except maybe Genji, since he was in charge of scheduling and there's no way he wouldn't know. As for the reason why he'd be a consistent accomplice? Bribery is always a good motive, I think. That or, since Sayo solved the epitaph and is the true head of the family, he's so locked in to his own ideals that he'd be willing to do anything for them because of their status. And I can believe that Natsuhi and Krauss would have no idea about this because of how self-involved they've been shown to be. As for Kinzo? That's harder to speculate about, because he's been dead.
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May 23, 2017 17:51
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ZiegeDame posted:But why did Hideyoshi tell everyone he was looking at Shannon's mutilated corpse in the shed when there was nothing there and Shanon-as Kanon was standing in the same room? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNTBb1u6UGg
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May 23, 2017 18:35
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ZiegeDame posted:Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. You know, Ange got a package, too. So I don't think it's a payoff to conspirators as much as... reparations, perhaps? Additionally, the timeline shows that the culprit mailed out the packages before the family conference, so perhaps they weren't expecting anyone who was on Rokkenjima to actually make it out. So of course Eva wouldn't have gotten one. This doesn't mean that the accomplices were fed a different story, however. As for a clue as to the likelihood of bribing any given Ushiromiya... 
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May 23, 2017 19:53
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ZiegeDame posted:It's pretty much 100% certain at this point that Nanjo is a co-conspirator. Yeah, I agree. I think he knows way more than he lets on. I wonder if he'll have his own confession later on? Cyouni posted:Again, this becomes far more complicated than necessary to explain something that solves no problems that aren't already solved. It creates a whole slew of problems (episode 1 and 3 in particular) and solves none. It'd requires the vast majority of people on the island to know about it and yet not care when multiple bodies for that person show up, and skirt the eyes of the detective multiple times by claiming "you don't know what they saw" when it's been shown that doesn't work as an excuse. I don't think so... especially if by "vast majority," you mean like, two other servants. The Ushiromiya accomplices don't even have to be told the whole truth, either—just enough to get them to play along.
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May 24, 2017 03:16
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ZiegeDame posted:I don't know about a confession scene. By my reckoning all he really has to do declare a few people dead who are not, and maybe open/close a window or two in Episode 3. You have to wonder, though... who do you think delivered the cliff baby? Qrr posted:Still curious how you imagine Natsuhi not knowing about it. She is not hands off with the servants. She pays attention to them and their schedules. I guess you've never had a boss who didn't really see their employees as people; not even enough to really take a good look at them.
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May 24, 2017 03:54
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Is this scene a hint towards Kinzo and Beatrice 2's relationship? Regardless, it's all really unsettling... I can get why Battler would be creeped out, but if the Kinzo parallel holds I'm more creeped out by him.
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May 24, 2017 15:10
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Oof, yeah. That definitely makes me think of the tendency people have of projecting their own desires and needs onto the people they love, often to the detriment of the relationship. Beatrice said that the "real Battler" wouldn't have forgotten his "sin," but her arrogant assumption is that she ever knew who the "real" person was in the first place. The real Battler of 1980 was a child who was really loving wounded by his mother's death and his father's subsequent betrayal, so much so that his home didn't even feel like home anymore. If you're in Sayo/'sBeatrice's position, you can either put your needs aside to be there for your loved one or get really loving pissy that they're so caught up in their own business that they're not paying attention to you anymore. Choosing the latter approach*, as she did, shows that this was never about her love for Battler as a person. *and also electing to murder his entire family witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 18:29 on May 24, 2017 |
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May 24, 2017 18:23
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I LOVE THIS BRING IT ON BITCHES 
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May 26, 2017 15:49
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Just chiming in... You can have two individuals be different genders AND have no penises in the room! Alternately, you can have the same situation AND have many penises! Infinite penisesssss 
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May 27, 2017 04:20
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May 27, 2017 07:35
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Tired Moritz posted:asian parents.txt Beat me to it.
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May 29, 2017 19:13
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idonotlikepeas posted:My theory of Rudolf and Kyrie as the true murderers gains strength. I really, really hope that's not true. Did Rudolf really have it in him to kill Battler, or allow Kyrie, his real mother, to kill him? What will Ange do when she finds out? She'll lose everything: hope that her family will return, and hope in her family, period. Also, that analogy always makes me think of Titanic. There was plenty of room on that debris, Rose. 
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May 31, 2017 17:17
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ZiegeDame posted:Should I be reading anything into the fact that Kyrie kept saying "18 years" when Rudolf and Asumu were only married for 12 years? Maybe that Kyrie just today learned something that brought her hell to an end, something concerning Battler's real mother? I think the 6 years are post-Asumu—according to Ange's recollection of the diary, Kyrie resented Battler for what he represented. She does a great job of hiding it, though. Also, upon re-reading, whaaaaat is this supposed to mean? Is she seriously talking about Bernkastel? Did that not strike Jessica as a SUPER WEIRD thing to say? Now I'm definitely not too hung up on Jessica not noticing Shkanon. quote:
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 18:21 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 18:17
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"And I'm grateful to my master... for giving me that chance. My 'certain willpower' in not giving up on that man no matter what was answered with a 'miracle'."
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Rodyle posted:Certainty is its own miracle Probably FabulousVillain's theory only makes sense if that quote is Kyrie talking about Rudolf in like a sex slave way? Not totally unfeasible but eughh
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May 31, 2017 18:41
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Word, it's not like anything nonconsensual was going on so whatever. Just an extreme lack of chill all around. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Too bad Kyrie never lived to jam out to Brandy & Monica. (She's definitely the Brandy in this situation imo.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va1Y6uAgNJY witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 19:58 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 19:54
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BurningStone posted:No real evidence for the first, other than "drama." Oof, getting flashbacks to growing up with my sister.
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Jun 1, 2017 16:24
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 This upsets me
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Jun 4, 2017 01:26
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Beds everywhere! It's like the Ushiromiya mansion was made by an 11-year-old playing The Sims.
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Jun 5, 2017 06:42
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Fabulousvillain posted:Just what was Maria referring to with Rosa killing others? She's aware of the game going on maybe she's referring to a previous Episode like Episode 2, I could picture her being in on the murders there. Although maybe she's referring to Sakutarou now that I think about it. I think it's Sakutarou and—I'm pretty certain now—Chiester 556.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:21
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ProfessorProf posted:Beato didn't understand what was happening herself. She didn't know why she had to fear this spirit mirror. However, when she tried to look at the bright light let off by the spirit mirror, it pierced her eyes. Though she didn't understand why she must be afraid, she did understand that she must be afraid. Hmmm. This is really interesting. If Baby Beatrice is unaffected by the usual anti-demon stuff, why does the spirit mirror repel her? It could be because it's connected to Natsuhi in particular? Or maybe it's because of some symbolic meaning in the mirror as an object. Mirrors in art are often symbols of truth, vanity, the ego, and self-confrontation.
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Jun 7, 2017 20:04
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"Uuuuu... ah... aaaaaaaahhh... ah..."
"Go, return to the world from whence you came, evil one! I, Ushiromiya Natsuhi, do not fear evil in the least!"
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CottonWolf posted:Self-confrontation seems the obvious answer there. I could see it this way: Beatrice doesn't exist, she 'exists'. Assuming that Beatrice believes in her own existence, looking at the mirror forces whoever Beatrice actually is to realise that they're not who they believe themselves to be. Ok yeah, this makes sense. That, and the idea that the person at the core of all three personalities created them in order to obfuscate their identity and compartmentalize their emotions. Looking at a mirror image of yourself when you've spent so much time and energy basically deleting yourself from existence is probably unbearable. Beatrice, Kanon, and Shannon exist because Sayo can't deal with themself (themselves? You know what I mean). Like, I don't know, I'm also speaking as someone who couldn't really look too closely into a mirror for a long time. This makes sense to me, though I would hope if I were a witch my Kryptonite would be something a little cooler than that.
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Jun 7, 2017 20:44
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I agree with resurgam! And I think that's a huge part of what has kept me reading this. My life isn't even close to what's going in here, but the underlying themes in this text really resonate with me. I'm reading it for validation, in a sense.
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Jun 8, 2017 17:16
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Cyouni posted:In terms of possible solutions, let's start with: the victims were killed between when the closed room was broken into and when their bodies were examined. I think this is on the money. Bern and Lambda make that fairly obvious. The crime was an illusion... until it wasn't.
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Jun 10, 2017 07:48
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