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Woo, ho boy, it took some pushing at the ends, but I've finally caught up. Too late for the end of the previous thread, but it looks like we haven't really gotten anywhere conclusive yet so prepare for a big theory dump. First thing that's been bugging me, a bunch of people seem to have trouble remembering character's ages, so here's a handy chart: George is 24 Battler, Jessica, and Shannon are 18 (Battler is exactly 18 years, 2 months, and 19 days old as of October 4th, 1986 incidentally) Kannon is 16 None of this was stated in red, but until presented evidence otherwise I'll assume this basic biographical information is true. (And since it's been confirmed we need no further evidence to solve this thing, it's as good as red to me.) The big takeaway here is that none of them but George could be 1967-Beatrice's kid, and none could be Natsushi's cliff baby. Cliff baby could totally be 1967's kid, though, and just as dead as she is. That out of the way, mystery time: First up, Battler's Parentage One thing I noticed from episode 4 that nobody seemed to pick up on is that fact that it's the only time in the series Battler refers to Kyrie as 'Mom'. EP 1 makes a big deal about how he thinks of her as a big sister, so I have to conclude that this change is a hint. Around October of 1967 (busy year, that) a 21-year-old Rudolf was seeing at least two women, Kyrie and Asumu, and got both of them pregnant. Asumu was deemed a more politically advantageous wife, so he was compelled to marry her, probably against his wishes. Kyrie was either yakuza or had completely abandoned her family by this point so it isn't hard to see why Kinzo wouldn't like the match. The name Battler is picked out for Asumu's son. Come July 15 1968, Asumu's child is stillborn, so someone (probably Kinzo (Wouldn't put anything past him)) has him switched with Kyrie's son, who is now named Battler. In this scenario, Kyrie is probably the one Rudolf wanted to marry the whole time, which explains the quick turnaround on that marriage. Battler runs off and refuses to speak to his dad before the truth can be explained to him. All of this doesn't really matter in the grand scheme. When Beatrice said the real Battler would remember his sin, it wasn't in red so it was just bullshit. She was sad that Battler didn't remember so in the process of taking her ball and going home she threw an irrelevant secret she knew about Battler out there to make him negate his own existence. This could mean she knows all the family secrets, but she could just know it by virtue of being the game master. Next up Beatrice's Motive (Where Beatrice is the totally non-magical human culprit/mastermind, whoever they may be) While a big deal is made about Beatrice having nothing to gain from the epitaph being solved, people do things they have nothing to gain from all the time, it's called altruism. So if she merely wanted someone else to gain something *cough*Battler*cough* it can still be said that she gains nothing. Furthermore, the Epitaph had been hanging there for at least 2 years, and nobody had yet solved it. (Ok, probably Beatrice solved it (after all the gold already belongs to her) but didn't want the gold/title so told nobody.) It has been proven that it can be solved in a single night -- Just from the existence of Furudo Erika this reasoning is possible -- so it stands to reason that if anybody who had already seen could solve it they would have already done so. And at game time, the only person seeing it for the first time is Battler. Therefore, When Beatrice challenged everyone to solve the riddle of the Epitaph, she believed that the only one capable of solving it was Battler. This gels with EP 3, Eva solving it would be a surprise, and not what Beatrice was going for, so the killings continue. Obviously singling out Battler in the challenge letter would be way too direct for someone who constructs an elaborate multi-dimensional closed-room murder as a love letter. So why Battler, well on the balcony she indicates she wouldn't mind being his furniture. Translating from crazy witch speak, if Battler were the head she wouldn't mind serving the Ushiromiya. Conversely we can conclude that if anyone besides Battler were the head, she wouldn't want to serve. This line of reasoning suggests she is one of the servants, but I'll get there later. So the other side of the scales is the murders, which aren't for revenge but are for Battler specifically. She doesn't enjoy the killing but does it anyway. Probably the hope is this will somehow prompt Battler to remember his sin? But that's a stretch. The most likely outcome of brutally murdering all of Battler's family is he gets pissed off and kills you. The flashing red before the final battle indicates this is exactly what Beatrice wants. His test in EP4 indicates if he remembers his sin he gets to be the head, which makes remembering = solving the riddle = being the head. So if one side is Battle is the Head and the other is Battler Kills Beatrice, we can conclude that if Battler doesn't remember his sin, Beatrice doesn't want to go on living and would rather die by Battler's hand. The rest of the family (save Maria, and her deaths are all pretty merciful) are poo poo so they all have to die to get this romanticized suicide-by-Battler, so be it. All this amounts to this: Love and hate are two sides of the same coin, thus we can conclude that Beatrice is in love with Battler Whew, almost there, time for the big one Who Is Beatrice (tl;dr it's Kannon) Just gonna launch right into this as it's mostly theory. First big leap: Kannon is trans, with some serious dissociative identity going on. For clarity's sake, only the Kannon persona will be referred to as he. During the 1980 family conference, 12-year-old Battler met 10-year-old Kannon. (He wasn't working there yet but he was still part of Kinzo's orphan brainwashing factory so there's no reason he could be on Rokkenjima for training.) Somehow, Battler learned about Kannon's secret desire to live as a woman and said something encouraging, supportive, and probably a little creepy. This gives Kannon the hope needed to seriously consider this desire. This is Battler's sin. Filled with this new sense of hope, Kannaon is inspired to confide in big sister Shannon. And then, after causing Kannon to fall in love with him, Battler loving disappears forever. Kannon's desire gets filed back under impossible dreams and unnecessary feelings for 'furniture'. Thus begins the creation of the Beatrice persona, modeled after the legend, a dumping ground for inconvenient feelings and desires, including a mountain of hatred and resentment for the Ushiromiya family and all their terribleness. Somewhere in here Beatrice née Kannon starts wearing a blond wig and a dress and having tea parties with Maria at the secret mansion while swapping spells for dealing with an unrelentingly lovely life including curses for punishing the wicked. Meanwhile the Kannon persona is just a big ball of nihilistic bitterness that doesn't even consider himself human. Then one day it's announced that Battler will be returning after six years. Love and hate are inextricably entwined. A plan is hatched to bring Kannon/Beatrice either salvation or a merciful death, heaven or hell. Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa join up to make up for their complicity in the confinement and serial rape of at least one, possible two innocent women. Shannon helps because she's the best big sister ever. (Well, her only competition is Eva.) Thus begins the tale of the Golden Witch. Broader observations in light of this theory: First off, the trans element isn't essential, just falling in love with Battler is enough to explain the witch persona being a woman Battler would find attractive. Second, Kannon is always the most violently, angrily opposed to Beatrice in the magical bullshit scenes; this represents the internal conflict going on inside someone in the process of murdering 15 people as well as Kannon's serious self-loathing. Third, this explains Kannon's rejection of Jessica because 1)"I'm already in love/hate with Battler" and 2)"Holy poo poo you wouldn't be asking me out if you knew the real me." Also explains his refusal to give his real name, would open several cans of worms if he told Jessica his real name is Beatrice. Episode specific stuff: EP 1: A lot of red is thrown out saying Kannon didn't die this way or Kannon didn't die that way. No red text is ever given that actually says Kannon died when he was stabbed in the boiler room. EP 2: No Body. Kannon is Dead means the persona that is hesitant about this plot is done, probably died the moment they stabbed Jessica in the back. When "Kannon" shows up in the kitchen for murder, she's all Beatrice all the time. EP 3: Faked death with Nanjo's help. Possibly spends the whole game hiding in the chapel while Eva tries to keep all the gold for herself, shows up at the end as Beatrice to shoot Nanjo in the face a lure Jessica away (who is blind so she can't tell 'Kannon' is wearing a wig and fake breasts.) EP 4: No body, no death. Other folks have already covered the more specifics of Kannon-as-Culprit so I'll just let those theories stand. (Also it's really late and I've been at this for like 2 hours.) Special thanks to whoever pointed out the strangeness of Kannon's first encounter with Battler in EP 1, which is when this theory really came together for me. As for the case at hand, none of it really matters because it's just Lamdadelta trolling Beatrice. So gently caress it, Krauss did it
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Apr 16, 2017 08:19
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curiousCat posted:According to who? Erika? Bernkastel? Father Knox
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Apr 16, 2017 08:31
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Aww poo poo someone's about to throw down Rule 1 The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow.ProfessorProf posted:
Oh hey, where have we heard this before, I wonder... Rune Full Moon posted:Shannon is 16, actually. Prof posted:Jessica stood up from the bed and opened the door. There stood a servant girl who was definitely about our age. Don't go trying to make George look skeezy by making Shannon younger than she already is. Following off of CottonWolf, the mystery of the midnight knocking still hasn't been solved. I've got nothing to contribute beyond my disappointment that Lambda ruled out any sound not made by a human hand, because that letter contained a heavy golden ring such that if it were thrown against the door it'd probably make an audible knock. Thus was born the short-lived life of Hypothetical Hidden Catapult X. Maybe there's weasel room there though. Like, if someone were wearing that ring and knocked normally, it's possible only the ring would contact the door. And in this way we can say the ring hitting the door creates the sound of ordinary knocking with a hand. ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 17:02
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"...Then perhaps refusing your request will be my final strike back at you..."
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CaptianKatsura posted:Actually, in that very same update Shannon mentions that she's been a servant since she was six years old, and that she's been a servant for 10 years. She's 16 years old. Where does it say this? All I can find is quote:{Battler} "Six years ago, you might've been mistaken for a servant's daughter who lent a hand at your parent's work, but now you're a full-fledged adult servant. How many years has it been?" Six years ago is not the same as six years old e: ok, found it "Maybe it's like a servant's 'professional name' or something. If so, I can kind of understand why that Kanon-kun's name sounds the way it does. She's a long-term servant who's served here since she was six years old. Since her body had changed radically, she didn't match my memories, but I got acquainted with her six years ago." Which kinda contradicts previous statements, and I'm gonna want a confirmation from a witch that this isn't just a typo or translation error. ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 16, 2017 |
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Apr 16, 2017 17:12
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Rune Full Moon posted:From the same update: Aha, but what if she two years off where she wasn't performing child labor. Then this statement, and the one about her being the same age as Battler and Jessica can both be true... Yeah, it's a stretch, but absent a red truth there's no way to be sure, so I'm inclined to go with whichever interpretation makes all the statements equally true. It doesn't matter in the end, since either way she's too young to be 1967-Beatrice's daughter.
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Apr 16, 2017 17:51
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You're right, my bad. Tis merely a bold prediction, not fixed truth.
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Apr 16, 2017 18:35
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Cyouni posted:Bernkastel, the Witch of Miracles aka "Miracles don't exist and I will poo poo on you for even thinking that they might". Bernkastel is just another example of the abused becoming the abuser. Only in this instance the abuse gave her magic powers.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:22
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Goddamnit Battler... I'm starting to loose track of what his goal even is here. If he's permitted to say a witch did it without instantly losing, there's a pretty easy line here. If the blue doesn't have to be used to deny witches, but merely deny something, and while he needs proof to use the red but not blue, here's an easy one. From the time Hiedyoshi entered the guest room until the time he was killed, Natsushi didn't leave the closet for even a second, nor did she open the door in any way. Therefore, she could not have killed Hideyoshi. Even if she did kill the 5 during the first twilight, it was under duress , following orders from the mysterious caller, and that caller is the true culprit. This doesn't exonerate Natsushi in any way, but it at least keeps the real players in the game. But, of course, Battler is incompetent
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Apr 17, 2017 16:33
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^^^  oath2order posted:The second twilight didnt even factor into the Trial at all. Natsuhi was convicted because she is the only one that doesnt have a confirmed alibi for the first twilight murders. Further proof that the Mystery side has utterly failed in their job to disprove witches. Calling the trial finished here is a total farce. ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 17:55
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idonotlikepeas posted:It's a logically valid proof. Yes, but the victory condition for the human side is not proving that one of the murders could have been done by a human. It's proving all of the murders could have been done by a human. Until they've covered Hideyoshi they aren't done. It's a cheap dodge, sure, but it at least buys time better than doing nothing and getting impaled.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:40
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CottonWolf posted:(Though I hope your theory's wrong, as I've said before that I think a mass conspiracy would be the least satisfying conclusion to this.) Now I'm betting it's that for this exact reason.
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Apr 18, 2017 01:35
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CottonWolf posted:
Not Umineko. Lambdadelta. She's the one controlling this lovely game devoid of love.
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Apr 18, 2017 03:33
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Don't conspire to upset me, Umineko.
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For all her smugness, Erika is really playing on easy mode, isn't she. Lambda isn't even trying. Sure, just selectively ignore red truths that don't fit your theory, why not. Must be so tough, winning a game where both players are on your side. Welcome to Whose Witch Is It Anyway, where everything is made up and the truth doesn't matter
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Apr 18, 2017 17:01
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lotus circle posted:I said it before and I'll say it again: of the four main Ushiromiya siblings, Krauss is arguably the least hosed up. Remember: I feel I must step in to defend Rudolf's honor here. He got two women pregnant when he was barely old enough to drink. We have no information on how serious these relationships were or if Kyrie and Asumu knew about each other, so we can't conclusively say Rudolf did anything wrong just by dating them both. I don't know what the use of birth control was like in 1967 Japan so I can't comment there either, but at worst he made a stupid kid mistake and didn't wrap it up and got a shotgun wedding for his trouble. We don't really know why he married Asumu instead of Kyrie, but if how Krauss's wife was chosen is any indicator he probably didn't have much of a choice in the matter. And if we assume he really loved Kyrie the whole time, you can't really blame him for moving quickly to repair the poo poo his dad pulled as soon as he got the chance. It's not like he murdered Asumu or anything. So the worst thing you can accuse Rudolf of doing is being a stupid twenty-one year old. Meanwhile, Krauss, as a full fledged adult, stole his father's money and sold his family's house out from under them to pay for what amounts to his gambling addiction.
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Apr 18, 2017 20:01
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Qrr posted:Oh, it's much more likely that Kyrie murdered Asumu. Rudolf probably just helped. "What's that? Ange wasn't even born until after Asumu died? Do you have any evidence? You don't, do you~? You didn't bring a birth certificate with you to the family conference/extra-planar hell courtroom, did you~~? That's just to~o baa~ad!" Though now that we're on the subject, it occurs to me that Rudolf expecting to be killed can easily be explained as "When I tell Kyrie that I knew about how Kinzo stole her baby and gave it to Asumu, she's going to kill me."
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Apr 18, 2017 20:51
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lotus circle posted:Sorry but that's wrong. Rudolf has to be, at youngest, in his mid-40s. Battler is 18, so Rudolf was in his late 20s when he was born. So he was definitely not some dumb kid who didn't know what he was doing. Source? The only (unofficial) age I have seen for Rudolf is just 40. e: 40 years old also coincidentally puts Rudlof being conceived just after the end of the war, with Eva and Krauss born before it started. I forget, do we know what Kinzo was doing during the war? ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 21:00
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lotus circle posted:He knew what he was doing when he dated both women at the same time, and really most people know even before 18 that two-timing is not a cool thing to do to either one of your partner's. I'm not saying it's not a lovely thing to do. I'm just saying it's not steal from your dad and leave your family broke and homeless lovely.
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Apr 18, 2017 21:27
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Speaking of all the crazy poo poo Erika did, I think the best way to sum up what's going on here is that she went around slapping tape on every door and window on the island except the door to Natsushi's bedroom.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:00
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Cyouni posted:It was a different red truth that was denied usage, perhaps because it might be tricky to build proof for it. I'm am 99% sure this is just Ryukishi lampshading the fact that he decided to never use someone/something being wet or not as a clue in this story.
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Apr 19, 2017 02:58
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Qrr posted:Natsuhi does not have the ability to say that Krauss and Kinzo didn't do it. She may not want to put the blame on them, but what she wants doesn't matter when determining the guilty party. I'd say Natsushi has some pretty conclusive evidence she could present to prove Kinzo didn't do it.
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Apr 19, 2017 05:11
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Erika never proclaimed a red truth in this trial. Bernkastel did. She's a witch, she can do that.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:29
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BurningStone posted:Battler said one thing that caught my eye: that he had to win or Aunt Eva's murderous ways would go unchecked (phone post, so I'm paraphrasing). He meant Eva has been beating the poo poo out of Natsushi basically non-stop since Erika leveled her accusation against her.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:20
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Ok, that whole case synopsis was so ridiculous I have to imagine there's something more going on here. Something like Episode 5:Beatrice::Rosa's Thanksgiving:Battler Come on, meta-Beatrice, get pissed off enough at this loving farce of a game to stand up and kick that corrupt judge out your seat. e: BurningStone posted:I should also really consider the possibility that Battler is the baby, but not Kyrie's child. In that case, I don't see who's child he is (Rudolf and yet another woman?) and by God we've already got enough characters running around without introducing a new secret mother. You know, if cliff baby were 1967-Beatrice's son, Kinzo would be both the father and the grandfather... 
ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Apr 19, 2017 |
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Apr 19, 2017 17:02
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resurgam40 posted:Why, ZiegeDame. Why are you making a weird, gross situation even more weird and gross. Why. Why would you do that. Do not turn away from the truth resurgam, no matter how unpleasant it may be.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:40
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CottonWolf posted:snip I think there's pretty conclusive circumstantial evidence that 'Beatrice I' aka 'Virgilia' is just Kumasawa, who aside from Genji, Nanjo, and Kinzo is the only person who knows Beatrice II exists, and was likely her primary caretaker. I also don't like Cliff Baby being relevant to the central mystery for the simple fact that it isn't presented until EP5, and we know that all the mysteries are solvable using only information presented in EPs 1-4. For that reason I'm inclined to believe it's just a sin from Natsushi's past that can be used to torture her, as well as elaboration on Kinzo's monstrosity that motivated half of the conspirators.
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Apr 19, 2017 20:45
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An interesting thing about this game that just occurred to me is that it presents a pretty tempting offer to Battler. If he just accepts this fragment as the truth, he, Rudolf, and Kyrie all get to come home to Ange with ten tons of gold besides. Nearly all of the rest of his family is either dead or in prison, but this is probably the best possible outcome for Battler personally that he could hope for. All he has to do is throw Natsushi under the bus, ignore what he knows to be true, and leave Beatrice to veg out and suffer for all eternity.
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Apr 19, 2017 21:32
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I'm gonna go poke some more holes in cliff baby theories. If Kanon is cliff baby, the first thing we know for sure is Kanon is lying about his age. We know Jessica has known Kanon for at least 3 years, so while a 19 year old pretending to be 16 might be doable, a 16 year old pretending to be 13 is a harder sell. Also, Kanon always refers to Shannon as Onee-san (Older Sister), so either she's also lying about her age (an even harder sell considering how long she's worked there) or Kanon is lying to her as well, which begs the question of why. As for going forward, I sure am looking forward to Erika's explanation for how Natsushi was the culprit in the games where half her head exploded or she was disemboweled on the first Twilight.
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Apr 20, 2017 17:47
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EagerSleeper posted:Thank you, this is an excellent source right here. This is pretty much it. One of the things that can defeat the whole "people are proclaimed dead in red truths" thing. If 'Kinzo' is a nebulous term that can apply to anyone and be transferred around, then so can other names be considered such terms as well. Of course, given it was said in the final battle of EP 4, Kinzo is an inherited name has the same weight as Small Bombs. It could also be that Krauss and Natsushi just came clean in EP 4 and wheeled Kinzo's corpse into the dining room, where everyone acknowledged his presence and death. Then the shooting began.
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Apr 21, 2017 06:54
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Like, say, between a 12-year-old aristocrat and a 10-year-old orphan Anyway, this whole thing reminded me, Battler is a fan of mystery stories. It is totally reasonable for Beato to know this. So then can't we think of the bottle stories as just that, murder mystery stories written as a gift for Battler for this long-awaited return. Somewhere along the way the plan changed and fan-fiction about murdering his whole family became actually murdering his whole family.
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Apr 21, 2017 17:23
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Didn't Ronove also say Lambda would make moves Beato could have made, but wouldn't have made. I think the most obvious move Lambda made is to create a crime that can be pinned on a human who isn't Beatrice. So I thought back to EP2, and who was the first human Beato tried to get Battler to pin the blame on? Kanon.  Completely unrelated bathroom epiphany: On the subject of the tenth twilight of the Epitaph, this translation use the word Capital and had a big to-do about the Kyou in Tokyo and Kyoto being the same as the one in Ongoukyou, and then someone looked it up and found that Kyou is also the word for Ten Quadrillion. So what about the other translation that talks about "The power of the gold"? Well, the atomic number for gold is 79. 7+9=16. 10^16=Ten Quadrillion. And of course one tenth of that is Quadrillion hello Dr. Lou etc.
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Apr 21, 2017 18:27
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Haven't seen a boy this magical since Star Driver. I am incredibly hype
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Apr 22, 2017 17:51
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CottonWolf posted:Well, to go back to our previous theories, what if Shannon were also Kinzo's and Beatrice II's child? Kinzo's a crazy obsessive and possibly a sexual abuser, depending on how deep the rabbit-hole goes. If this is right, Shannon's Kinzo's last possible attachment to Beatrice, how dark an end point you want to follow that conclusion to, I'll leave up to you. But if that's the case, Shannon's been trapped on an island with her possible abuser for 17 years, until his death. Battler's promise gave her hope of escape, but then he never came back, and then she was trapped with Kinzo for another 4 years... I think that explains the weight of the betrayal. Even if he could never have possibly had the power to do anything about it, being a child too. If cliff baby was a girl, why would Kinzo give her away to Natsushi rather than starting his Princess Maker project over again? -- Episode three thoughts: George's profile says he sold his soul (exact words are "in exchange for his soul") for an 8-digit number, which we know is a PIN to a vault containing at least 2 billion yen total. What does sold his soul mean in the a completely non-magical serial murder scenario? The obvious is it means agreeing to cooperate with the murderer(s). We've already seen George say he's willing to throw away everyone else. So, George sneaks out the window and goes to the parlor where he meets a still living Sayo and not-Kanon/Beatrice. He agrees not to turn them in and play along in exchange for enough money for him and Sayo to live comfortably for the rest of their lives. At this point not-Kanon/Beatrice kills George and Sayo anyway or George agrees to abandon his family, his name, and any rights to Kinzo's estate in order to live out the rest of his life with the woman he loves.
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Apr 22, 2017 20:22
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CottonWolf posted:We've still not solved the meaning of that number yet, either. The first half's Battler's birthday, which might be a coincidence, but seems unlikely. But we still don't have a good candidate for the second half that I can think of. Is the family conference always held on the first weekend in October? Could Battler have made his promise on November 29th? Could it be the day Rosa met Beatrice? Could Kanon have simply lied to Jessica about his birthday? Could it be the day modern-day Beatrice was 'born' as a delayed result of Battler's sin? Could it mean absolutely nothing at all? CottonWolf posted:Lets him skip the effort of hiding her? Plus he'd need someone to raise her, and Beatrice II's dead. Kumasawa and Genji aren't.
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Apr 22, 2017 20:42
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I was so incredibly happy when Ronove showed up. Please continue to be the best, Ronove. Let me see if I can piece together the theory Battler was advancing, which Lambda cut short because spoilers. From 24:00-1:00 the people in the dinning room concoct a scheme to get Natsushi to admit the truth about Kinzo. At 1 AM Rosa fills the cousins in on the plan. At 7 AM on the 5th Battler starts screaming about nothing in particular. Jessica, George, Maria, and Rosa all stifle their laughter because they are very much alive at this point. Nobody who isn't in on the joke is allowed to see the "bodies". After everyone leaves, the not-dead sneak off and hide in Kuwadorian, using the path Battler discovered the night before and at least Rosa therefore knows about. At some point after this, real-Beatrice sneaks away and actually kills them. Nobody but the killer knows they are actually dead.
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Apr 23, 2017 16:12
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CottonWolf posted:I can't see that it makes any sense for Jessica to play along, or the servants. Kanon and Kumasawa know that Kinzo's dead. If they wanted to show that, they could just tell someone, and why would Jessica plot her mother's downfall? What does she have to gain there? The goal of the plot isn't to convict Natsushi of murder, it's to get Natsushi to admit the truth about Kinzo. From Jessica's perspective, once she admits the truth they all come out Candid Camera style and everyone has a good laugh and a rebellious teenager gets to put one over on her strict mother. From the servant's perspective, they are following their master's orders. Even if they don't agree with those orders they have to follow them, because they're furniture.
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Apr 23, 2017 17:07
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CottonWolf posted:But Krauss and Natsuhi are their masters at that point, aren't they? Yes, and the order is "Don't tell anyone about Kinzo being dead." So until Natsushi gives up the lie, they can't say anything about Kinzo. They were never ordered not to participate in any conspiracies to force Natsushi to tell the truth.  Also, all those servants are already in a separate conspiracy to murder a whole bunch of people, so...
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Apr 23, 2017 17:19
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bman in 2288 posted:What's AmaBato? Amakusa(Ange's Bodyguard)/Battler
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Apr 27, 2017 06:43
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oath2order posted:I still think my favorite part of the story is that Natsuhi just wants to be left alone for an episode. Poor girl. And a romantic engagement scene for her coercive arranged marriage. Graylien posted:And have a sweet moment with her husband. You know, for all the awful inter-familial poo poo, all the romantic relationships actually seem pretty healthy, there's certainly issues, but they at least all seem to actually love each other. (Barring Rosa and what'shisface admittedly) BeatoxBato, a very healthy young romance.
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Apr 27, 2017 16:57
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Well, while Battler is busy failing, time for me the flesh out my mystery solving. My goal here is to lay out a sollution to the How Dunnit of the first 4 episodes, using as few co-conspirators as possible. Here goes. Major assumption: Kanon is the main culprit, and previously solved the Epitaph and knows where the gold is located. Supported stipulation: Kumasawa and Nanjo have been paid-off to assist, via payments sent to their next-of-kin Minor Detail: The culprit has some sort of red paint that is either actually blood, or close enough to blood that if could fool an untrained observer. I shall call this substance Blud for short. Episode 1 First Twilight: Easy. Kanon discovers the bodies, had all night to kill them and dump them in the shed, has two people to help move the bodies. Second Twilight: The door was never chained. Kanon simply pretends that it is while Genji is around. While Genji is fetching Natsushi, Kanon gets Kumasawa and they dump Kinzo's body in the furnace, then return to paint the magic circle and cut the chain from the inside with bolt cutters that had already been prepared. Since we only get Kanon's PoV on these events, we cannot assume what we were shown actually happened. Foruth Twilight: Kanon runs into the boiler room with Kumasawa, dips the paperweight in the bottle of Blud from before, then pours the rest on the floor and lays down face-first in the puddle. Battler arrives, sees Kanon face-down in what he assumes is blood, then runs after a shadow Natsushi thinks she saw. While Battler and Natsushi are in the courtyard, Nanjor and Kumasaw move Kanon to the servants room. Nanjo declares Kanon dead, and nobody questions it. From here it's easy enough for Nanjo or Kumasawa to place the letter in the study, move to the parlor, and get shot by our Beatrice who has has had plenty of time in the servant's room to get dressed and put on her makeup in preparation for the duel with Natsushi. Episode 2 First Twilight: Kanon-Beatrice calls the Ushiromiya adults to the chapel to show off some gold as proof that they have solved the Epitaph and are the rightful heir to Kinzo's fortune. At this time they quietly offer Rosa fat stacks of cash, enough to live comfortably with Maria forever, in exchanged for her assistance. Rosa blocks the door while Kanon-Beatrice kills the other six. This is possible because Second Twilight: Kanon stabs Jessica in the back, an act from which there is no going back. 'Kanon' has been killed and only Beatrice remains. Kumasawa's master key is used to lock the door after. Next up, "Kanon" shows up in the kitchen with costume makeup on and tries to pin all the blame on Rosa. Nanjo and Kumasawa hand over their master keys while Nanjo pretends to operate on Kanon. Shannon is aware of the Beatrice persona, and begins to suspect that Kanon is not in the driver's seat. Realizing her cover is blown, Beatrice moves to make 5 in one go, but is prevented by Genji, and she quickly makes her escape. Ghoda is scared shitless and has no idea what's going on, Genji and Shannon are at least sympathetic enough towards Kanon/Beatrice, so they can agree that the person who attacked them wasn't Kanon. It was Beatrice. Kanon and Beatrice just happen to share a body. While they give a very unhelpful report to Rosa, Beatrice sneaks back in and moves the bodies. At some point Kanon's superb stealth techniques* (which have been established) are used to slip the keys to Rosa, who then pretends to discover them in the servant's room. *Superb Stealth Techniques may just be a pre-arranged hiding spot From here it's easy enough for Rosa to drop a master key out the window of the parlor while Battler is busy talking to Maria about magic, and all the closed rooms fall apart from there. Well, that wound up taking longer than I expected as I checked at re-checked all sorts of scenes, red or otherwise, from several different updates to make sure everything lined up, but so far Genji and Shannon don't have to be in on the killings, just sympathetic to the killer and a little pissed at Rosa's accusations. I'll see if I can keep it up for the next two episodes later, but since Genji dies in the first twilight of both, he's looking pretty clean. (I actually put a lot of thought into Kanon would kill six people all on his own: First he takes out Eva and Krauss in a surprise attack (just like he did Nanjo and Kumasawa) and then gets Kyrie (with no Genji to rescue her) before the shock has passed. Rudolf and Hideyoshi would try to put up a fight, but unarmed they would ultimately lose. Natsushi isn't even a factor.)
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Apr 29, 2017 00:15
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| # ¿ Apr 30, 2024 16:36 |
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Well poo poo. Wish there was just a red text master list somewhere so I wouldn't have to open like 5 tabs to find all the relevant bits. Gonna have to think on that last room some more. It was definitely locked, since Battler personally unlocked it. Hmmm... Is there any red saying anything about the possibility of someone hiding in Natsushi's room? Battler stares into Shannon's gaping wound, but doesn't make a through search of the room, and unlike his normal routine of covering all the bases in arguments, he just sorta gives up in despair once Beatrice declares the parlor and Natsushi's rooms to be Closed Rooms. The culprit could have hid under the bed or in the closet, and waited for everyone to leave. From there they can unlock the room from the inside or climb out the window. Meanwhile, the only thing suspicious about the parlor is the letter, and Rosa could have planted that while she was "searching" either before or after the big corpse extravaganza.
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Apr 29, 2017 04:20
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