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MrL_JaKiri posted:"white people love playing 'divide and rule'" these seem fine
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Apr 30, 2017 13:05
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MrL_JaKiri posted:In general I have found very few people who are pro-Assad/Putin in private, most people who are vocally pro-them from the left are putting on a much stronger front in public in order to be contrary/because they don't want to explain nuance every time. Blunt contrarianism is counterproductive and they should still be told to shut up if that's the case and I understand the fatigue but it has to be simpler to actually oppose intervention than twist yourself in knots to justify Russian or Syrian state actions. Edit: Also welcome back! namesake fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 13:08
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Opposing intervention is a bit close to appeasement
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Apr 30, 2017 13:13
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intervention in Syria is providing material support to ISIS also our actions in Yemen (supporting Saudi) are helping Al Qaeda
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Apr 30, 2017 13:16
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https://twitter.com/Flying_Inside/status/858587786080903170
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Apr 30, 2017 13:26
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Spangly A posted:ten points in a week is good and the gap is now within range of model correction errors like a mobilised youth vote This is a fun post to read.
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Apr 30, 2017 13:52
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Most of the "stupid" things she says are talking about systematic racism and everyone going "haha there's no systematic racism here what an idiot" I just think she's a very ineffective speaker. Easily dominated in an argument/debate. Especially by people who no doubt despise her for being black and a woman, i.e the Tories she will face. It's not so much I don't like her, I just think Tory scum will annihilate her with their genuine scorn and hatred.
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Apr 30, 2017 14:21
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This definitely happened https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/858630839298555904
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Apr 30, 2017 14:24
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Pissflaps posted:This definitely happened And then the people of Scotland stood up and started slowly applauding
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Apr 30, 2017 14:28
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Having seen Theresa's best Normal Person impressions so far, I struggle to imagine her doing anything at doorsteps other than mildly creeping people out, but okay
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Apr 30, 2017 14:32
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Spangly A posted:He's a bit too busy to care about what the SWP think? https://twitter.com/AntiRacismDay/status/784770407270342656 SUTR is a SWP front.
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Apr 30, 2017 14:37
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It's incredibly frustrating to watch the May interviews today not so much for the questions that were asked as the follow ups that weren't. Marr for example asks a good question about Nurses having to use food banks, May gets slightly on the back foot for a moment, acknowledges the situation but makes a vague answer about there being "many complicated reasons why people use food banks" before moving onto another subject. I wish we had a media when faced with this were able to ask "what are these reasons" instead of just letting it be said and moving on.
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Apr 30, 2017 14:47
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TinTower posted:https://twitter.com/AntiRacismDay/status/784770407270342656 I remember this stupid argument from last year, please not again.
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Apr 30, 2017 15:09
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TinTower posted:https://twitter.com/AntiRacismDay/status/784770407270342656 Ah yes, the evil conspiracy known as "not being racist" those SWP sure are monsters all round! How did the coalition deal with racism in the UK during their time, again? I'll just read up on the conditions in migrant camps and refugee centres like Yarl's Wood while taking a big sip of water
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Apr 30, 2017 15:49
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TinTower posted:https://twitter.com/AntiRacismDay/status/784770407270342656 File that one under "doesn't give a poo poo" then, like the overwhelming majority of people at these events
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Apr 30, 2017 16:00
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My point is that the SWP aren't even subtle about their control over SUTR, though:quote:Trade unionists described building SUTR at work in councils, schools, the NHS and London Underground. Liz said her Unison union branch had held SUTR stalls in Camden council’s largest workplace. quote:Lewis Nielsen from the central committee led off the discussion on students. SUTR also has history of absolutely hating BLM-UK and the London Black Revs, mostly for factional reasons.
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Apr 30, 2017 16:09
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TinTower posted:My point is that the SWP aren't even subtle about their control over SUTR, though: mine is that it's totally irrelevant factionalist bullshit of absolutely no interest to the public no politician "accounts for" the views of everyone they agree with. It's not a normal or reasonable request to make of anyone, and pretending it is just ends up with the current situation of stage-managed soundbytes.
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Apr 30, 2017 16:24
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Sounds like the SWP does a lot of good things.
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Apr 30, 2017 16:26
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Sounds like the SWP does a lot of good things.
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Apr 30, 2017 16:31
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Now I'm confused this thread has told me that the SWP are bad but Corbyn has done some speeches for them and now they're not bad after all?
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Apr 30, 2017 16:39
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Sounds like the SWP does a lot of good things. Yeah like shield its high level members from rape allegations and carry out campaigns of bullying and intimidation against accusers, but, y'know, eggs, omelettes.....
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Apr 30, 2017 16:42
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Sounds like the SWP does a lot of good things. Nah, the SWP takeover good things with an incredible dedication to boring bureaucratic bollocks (there's an irony in a party that claims to be revolutionary Trots are so adept at bureaucracy), but that's not really the same as doing good things. Instead it's more taking over good causes to try to bend them to their will. I get entryism as an idea when it comes to taking over a mainstream social democratic party, I don't get the SWP's brand of entryism at all. They are great at taking lots of signs with a neat slogan & their party name and handing them out at rallies and marches, but I'm not really convinced that it's having much in a way of impact on socialism in Britain. Instead, like most far left parties, they seem more obsessed with selling their shite paper than anything else. Which isn't to say there aren't members of the SWP who are good people. There are. But there is a heavy baggage that comes with the SWP, more than enough to justify the rest of the left from no-platforming them. Covering up rape and sexual assault, and eventually having a big split where the pro-cover-up faction are all that was left, it's not good. You have to ask serious questions about anyone left in the party after 2013. There's probably someone who has written something about Trotskyite parties and how often their behaviour often ends up being very similar to cults. Pissflaps posted:Now I'm confused this thread has told me that the SWP are bad but Corbyn has done some speeches for them and now they're not bad after all? Or some people think that the SWP are bad, and others don't know enough about the SWP, and they are different people. I know that's not as easy for you to understand as "blah blah hivemind blah blah" but sometimes life is so very complex. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 16:44
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Were ppl raped in the name of the party
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Apr 30, 2017 16:50
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forkboy84 posted:2013. if a scientologist said "poverty is real bad" and jeremy corbyn agreed would jeremy corbyn need to explain why he distances himself from scientology? I'd really much rather he didn't associate with the swp but they're an irrelevant cult of beaurocracy in the name of trotsky I'd not want them there but if there's a large event to speak at and the SWP do paperwork and recruit then why is jeremy corbyn supposed to apologise for their claims on russia
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Apr 30, 2017 16:58
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If Corbyn went to a Scientology event to talk about poverty I think that would be worth commenting on.
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Apr 30, 2017 17:01
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Spangly A posted:if a scientologist said "poverty is real bad" and jeremy corbyn agreed would jeremy corbyn need to explain why he distances himself from scientology? It's one thing to agree with a statement a group says and quite another to share a platform with them. And yet another when the platform is well known scientologist front organisation, controlled by the Church of Scientology, who have worked to cover up rape & sexual abuse by senior members. You can't stop the SWP turning up at events, you can however stop turning up at SWP events. I don't want Corbyn to say anything about them, their platform, or anything else, I want every good comrade to turn their back a cult which has achieved nothing politically, and has caused incredible harm with its secretive, cultish refusal to deal with serious allegations of people abusing their position to cover up horrific crimes, while their comrades do nothing about it. That includes Jeremy Corbyn. He's shown a depressing willingness to attend SWP-lead events. I don't really see how it's unfair to criticise him for that. I might support his politics but I don't think he's infallible, and anyone does is indulging in stupid culty behaviour and should look at themselves in the mirror. Democratic centralism was a loving stupid idea in 1920 & it's a stupid idea today. Calling out bullshit when you see it does not harm the movement.
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Apr 30, 2017 17:06
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Pissflaps posted:If Corbyn went to a Scientology event to talk about poverty I think that would be worth commenting on. They're London's largest homeless and vulnerable persons charity, so there's a logical reason why he might go, but they're also a front for the Catholic Church, which has covered up the rape and abuse of children and has ridiculous internal bureaucracy (and several newspapers). I think most people would regard it as a bit strange if you started going on about the Papacy and child abuse just because he visited one of their homeless support centres though.
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Apr 30, 2017 17:25
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I think that would be an ecumenical matter.
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Apr 30, 2017 17:30
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Some might make the argument that the Catholic Church is a little bit bigger than the SWP or indeed Scientology, so any given member is more distant from the crimes associated with the organisation.
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Apr 30, 2017 17:30
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forkboy84 posted:There's probably someone who has written something about Trotskyite parties and how often their behaviour often ends up being very similar to cults. The most hilarious example of leftist cults is, of course, Posadism.
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Apr 30, 2017 17:32
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Out of curiosity, has there ever been a (popular) cult that actually self-identified as a cult?
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Apr 30, 2017 17:44
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I think the closest someone has got to that was that pyramid scheme guy who said that actually his organisation was a dimaryp.
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Apr 30, 2017 17:46
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Dabir posted:Some might make the argument that the Catholic Church is a little bit bigger than the SWP or indeed Scientology, so any given member is more distant from the crimes associated with the organisation. nearly 10% of its front line work force are nonces
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Apr 30, 2017 17:52
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same as here then
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Apr 30, 2017 17:53
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TheRat posted:Out of curiosity, has there ever been a (popular) cult that actually self-identified as a cult? the cult of snap
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Apr 30, 2017 17:53
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forkboy84 posted:There's probably someone who has written something about Trotskyite parties and how often their behaviour often ends up being very similar to cults. I had this in my bookmarks and figured it's pretty relevant to the aforementioned. It's not about the SWP but a very similar precursor, the WRP, and the parallels are quite striking. Funny thing about Trotskyism, Marxism-Leninism and all their offshoots: they're all named after dudes who've ostensibly got the definitive inside track on what Marx actually meant, so I guess it's no surprise they're susceptible to cult-like behaviours.
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Apr 30, 2017 18:01
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Dabir posted:Some might make the argument that the Catholic Church is a little bit bigger than the SWP or indeed Scientology, so any given member is more distant from the crimes associated with the organisation. There's also all the bad poo poo they continue to do because condoms are the Devil's cling film. I think it would be legitimate to ask why religions have to run such places as The Passage in the first place, but being as they do I can see why leaders would use them as a pulpit without necessarily agreeing with any of the Church's positions on anything else. Likewise you can ask why it's necessary for the largest anti-racism group to be run by an unpopular political party. Especially one doing worse than the BNP.  fig. 1 – lol But that doesn't mean the majority of the people attending were supporting anything other than anti-racism. TinTower posted:The most hilarious example of leftist cults is, of course, Posadism. J. Posadas was a pseudonym and he never expanded on what the J. was. Jose? 
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Apr 30, 2017 18:02
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MrL_JaKiri posted:"white people love playing 'divide and rule'" Definitely a gaffe, as long as you ignore all of british history 1583 - 1980.
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Apr 30, 2017 18:08
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it is a gaffe. It passes on to the majority decisions made by the elite. it makes people feel affronted and angry when they're accused of making decisions they not only don't make, but ones which they don't have the agency to make.
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Apr 30, 2017 18:23
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winegums posted:it is a gaffe. It passes on to the majority decisions made by the elite. it makes people feel affronted and angry when they're accused of making decisions they not only don't make, but ones which they don't have the agency to make. Good point
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Apr 30, 2017 18:28
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