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Fast Luck posted:Varga got a text message telling him the IRS had gotten his books, so we know he's got people on the inside of federal agencies. Varga knows he was the subject of a huge tax investigation and knows he's taking a risk by entering the US again. So therefore he also surely has taken measures to protect himself. That's why he'll walk out of that room, but that's too much time I've spent already arguinbg this and getting drawn in by one of these gimmick ambiguous open endings. It's this. Someone in the IRS or the FBI is on Varga's payroll, they went out of their way to show us that. And Varga may be a liar, but why would he "lie" to Gloria about being released? It's not as if he can intimidate her into doing anything dumb the way he did with Emmitt. If the actual content of the season is valuable at all to story, Varga walks. If not, then we might as well imagine that Gloria just murders him right there in the cell or a meteorite hits the holding facility.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:12
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Unzip and Attack posted:It's this. Someone in the IRS or the FBI is on Varga's payroll, they went out of their way to show us that. And Varga may be a liar, but why would he "lie" to Gloria about being released? It's not as if he can intimidate her into doing anything dumb the way he did with Emmitt. But its a deliberately ambiguous ending. They've given you enough to side either way but you'll never know for sure.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:26
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Varga didn't lie when he bamboozled Emmitt either. He said "MIGHT be equipped with a fingerprint scanner". This is extremely important. The season is about perception, reality, and how they're manipulated. There is no right answer to what happens after the cut to black. It's quantum.
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Jun 23, 2017 21:43
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I assumed that, combined with the very first opening scene which is a very similair situation (A convincing liar and someone who isn't taking their poo poo) that Varga was going away. I assumed that Yuri went away, at least for a little while for murdering the woman. I'm actually kind of shocked that the opening scene kind of works for me now.
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Jun 24, 2017 00:49
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It was a decent season, save the omnipotent bad guys. Especially that idiocy about the deputy going back for his gun and the russian brain washing him or whatever the hell that was supposed to be.
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Jun 24, 2017 03:37
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Tumble posted:It's very much plausible that he could be doing this by himself. The IRS agent says that Stussy Enterprises had borrowed over $200,000,000 over the last year to line his own pockets, and it only took Varga and a few other people to perpetrate that. So he can afford loyal enforcers without having to be a part of another major criminal enterprise. I mean, in real life, mobster enforcers don't make millions of dollars, they get a few grand a month. So if somebody is putting away tens of millions of dollars every time they do something like this, it's trivial to afford a small army of guys. And he doesn't even really NEED the army most of the time it seems, Nikki getting the leg up on him appears to be a relatively rare occurrence. You ignore points I make and then disagree with and debate against points I never made, idgi Also, despite the anti-Soldier of Fortune Magazine crusade I remember from years past, it really isn't possible to up and just find some ruthlessly efficient henchman/men willing to commit murder on your orders, or any other utterly vile criminal act you command, in backpage wanted/personal ads sections or at a local Murderous Thug Depot serving whichever area you may be traveling through, no matter how much money you may have access to. You either grow up around and become associated with organized crime in one form or another to form bonds and connections to make it possible(spoiler: this means whatever huge money making schemes you succeed in accomplishing are going to have a large percentage of funds put aside to "donate" to your organized crime connections or you probably get tortured to death), or you are a legit, legal-on-the-books wealth holder involved in government friendly corporations who can hire the services of Blackwater type companies, or you become a corrupt high up government official/politician/bureaucrat yourself. A cult leader might circumvent these requirements, but that's really not relevant to the point
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Jun 24, 2017 09:24
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precision posted:The whole season was full of references to things being in dual states, and Varga is no exception. He disappears from the elevator, and in the interview outright states something like "I am a citizen of the air, I am as the wind". He's not a human being, any more than Ray Wise's character was. That's why the ending can't be resolved until we see it - he may be a supernatural force beyond all reach (he literally disappeared from the elevator) or he may just be a man (he climbed out of the elevator). It's not up to the viewer to resolve this dilemma; the ending was a flat statement that we simply can't resolve it, unless we come up with a story. Nicely put. I loved the whole Schrodinger's Cop thing Gloria had going on (she's chief and she's not chief, she's in front of the sensors and she isn't, she can help and she can't, she exists and yet, to Varga, she doesn't) and the ending was the most perfect way to go with it. She's going to get Varga...and she isn't. There can't be a resolution without breaking the theme. My only disappointment is that Nikki didn't make it, drat it.
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Jun 24, 2017 09:52
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I just finished up the last episode. After the tremendousness of Season 2, there was no way Season 3 could really grab me the same way and that is unfortunately what ended up happening. There was just too much I rolled my eyes at, even if there was plenty to truly enjoy. I found more parallels between this season of Fargo and Season 2 of True Detective than I did between the first scene of this season and the last scene of this season. I don't really feel like it earned the cut-to-black. I wasn't feeling any anxiousness to see if Varga would or wouldn't get taken away, I just stopped caring. I got more emotion out of Burgle chilling at Swango's corpse than I did out of anything else that happened this episode and a big part of that was the amazing cinematography. And Burgle getting "fixed" by receiving a hug was the most emotional thing in the season for me. Just sucks that it felt like it didn't really lead to anything. The Solversons pretty much ruined me for whatever they were trying to convey with this season's Burgle. Maybe, in the end, the season was soured to me because the core plot, the thing Noah Hawley came up with that convinced him to do this third season, was actually a plot of an episode of American Dad, which means it was probably the plot of something even further back in time. The old "inherited seemingly more valuable item instead of inherited actually vastly more valuable item" thing. I'm sure there's a trope name for it. I dunno. I wanted to love this season and it fell flat for me. But I'm a freak who wants to just watch Season 2 over and over again with different plots but the same actors and cinematography so what do I matter. Edit: And now reading the post above this one, I see what they were going for with Burgle. Nope, still don't care. 
DaveKap fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 10:04
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Although I agree and am content with the ambiguity of the ending (in fact I loved it); one point I noticed was that shutting down debate as 'pointless' is like the only time that Varga didn't choose instead to blather on about some random facts that barely related to anything. Very uncharacteristic and my feeling was that was that he was worried. Gloria does also seem uncertain though, trying to convince herself that she's right. The two scenes bookending this season made up for any shortcomings of this season. First, a man is told he is lying about his identity and is accused of crimes and as an audience we are convinced he is innocent. Then, we are told a story. Then, a similar scene is shown in which another man he is told he is lying about his identity and is accused of crime and as an audience we are convinced that he is guilty. The story of Varga himself proves his philosophy that stories become reality all the time. In a way I think this whole season is a meditation on why Fargo (the movie) started off proclaiming "this is a true story". One potential interpretation of the opening scene is that this dolt was set up to take the fall for Yuri's handiwork in the same way that Jimmy In-And-Out took the fall for Emmit & Ray later in the season - if Varga got Yuri out of a murder of passion it would explain his loyalty to him. Not sure if the ages really fit but whatever. Chadzok fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 11:16
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The opening and closing scenes are cute, it's like poetry... it rhymes.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:18
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Who else thinks Gloria went to work for the DHS specifically to have a chance at catching Varga?
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Jun 24, 2017 16:12
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I just really wasn't into it this season. Should've stopped awhile ago, but finished it out nonetheless. Not sure if it was the season itself, or if I just grew tired of the show's gimmicks: the drawn out shots overlaid with pretentious music, the plucky lead Minnesota donchaknow detective, the idiosyncratic henchmen, the obnoxious "these are based on true events" poo poo at the beginning...just highly self-aggrandizing television, typified perfectly by that masturbatory "Peter and the Wolf" montage. Varga was the saving grace at first, but his shtick got old too. One too many wannabe edgy and mysterious monologues about human nature. Yes, we get that he's an eccentric sociopath, no more gratuitous shots of him brutalizing his teeth or whatever, thanks. Also, Carrie Coon (or at least the Burgle character) was pretty much a nothing, though I may feel that way because this show ran simultaneously with The Leftovers, and she loving slayed in that. Anyway, I really liked season 2, so this was a bummer. Vernacular fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 16:52
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Is the 'based on true events" that much of a problem? I enjoy seeing how they'll integrate it in the opening title. Plus there's always at least one person who takes it seriously.
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Jun 24, 2017 17:03
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Vernacular posted:pretentious music... self-aggrandizing television... masturbatory... "Am I just not connecting with someone's artwork for valid reasons of taste? Nah, they're making art in bad faith. Yeah, that's the ticket!"
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Jun 24, 2017 18:22
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precision posted:Varga didn't lie when he bamboozled Emmitt either. He said "MIGHT be equipped with a fingerprint scanner". He only gave Emmitt enough misinformation to make Emmitt feel like he wasn't in control, and that having a gun gave him no extra leverage in that situation. Even killing Varga right then would've done nothing for Emmitt except hasten his own death, the mercenaries wouldn't have hesitated to gun him down after the fact. And they definitely would have if Emmitt tried to pull the trigger but the gun failed to fire. It might've been a "noble sacrifice" or whatever if he took Varga down with him but again, Varga made him doubt even that. Unzip and Attack posted:It's this. Someone in the IRS or the FBI is on Varga's payroll, they went out of their way to show us that. And Varga may be a liar, but why would he "lie" to Gloria about being released? It's not as if he can intimidate her into doing anything dumb the way he did with Emmitt. I was thinking that Gloria's smile at the end signified something very important, that while Varga is right and that in the real world people like him walk all the time, in Fargo Season 3 he's not in the real world and he's not a real person. He's a fictional character and allegorical figure, and anything can happen to him and all bets are off. He's just as likely to get arrested as he is to walk free in the world of Fargo the series, and the suspended moment at the end never ends. The credits roll and that moment never stops, he's forever frozen between two possibilities. And that in itself is a type of prison, one that he'll never escape from. This is a true story.
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Jun 24, 2017 18:33
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King Vidiot posted:I was thinking that Gloria's smile at the end signified something very important, that while Varga is right and that in the real world people like him walk all the time, in Fargo Season 3 he's not in the real world and he's not a real person. He's a fictional character and allegorical figure, and anything can happen to him and all bets are off. He's just as likely to get arrested as he is to walk free in the world of Fargo the series, and the suspended moment at the end never ends. The credits roll and that moment never stops, he's forever frozen between two possibilities. And that in itself is a type of prison, one that he'll never escape from. Yeah that's what I've been getting at, but I didn't pick up on her smile being that realization, and I believe you're right. In fact, I now believe that Gloria was telling a story to Varga. They were both telling each other stories that were equally likely, but equally unknowable to either of them (or us). I think this might be my favorite season of Fargo.
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Jun 24, 2017 19:48
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Between the first two seasons of the show, I read a comment on this forum that really stuck with me. "Fargo is the worst type of show because it thinks it's about something, but it isn't" I really liked the first two seasons of Fargo, but that comment stuck with me like an itch. I found myself constantly thinking "Is what the show's doing now thematically consistent, or just a 'cool moment' that means nothing?" Sometimes the show let me down, but overall, it was enough for me to still quite enjoy it. With the third season, I kind of ran out of steam. There are only so many times a character can turn and look at the camera and say "this season is about truth" before it starts to irritate. It seemed like every episode, characters would monologue in increasingly obvious ways. They would cut-away to something only tangentially related to the action with the characters then asking "wait, is that really related" as if to preemptively defend itself. Maybe it was just me, but this season really felt to me like that tossed every idea they had into the script, then tried really hard to bend and mold the scenes around the point they wanted to make. Strangely, in the shows most thematically consistent season, I felt it carried the least weight. I saw style in droves, substance in teaspoons. I guess it wasn't helped by the fact I didn't think the show pulled through in the end. Everything in the finale felt unsatisfactory, and not in an introvertive and intentional way.
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Jun 24, 2017 21:06
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The only thing I didn't really like about this season was Shea Whigham's character of the Police Chief. His dismissal of Gloria was necessary for the plot, but the mysogynistic aspects of his character felt too cheap for a show like this where just about every character is multilayered and interesting. They could have written him as just out of touch, or even corrupt to some degree and I would have accepted it a lot better than his "You're a dumb woman." schtick. No fault on the actor, whom I like, in this case it lies squarely with lazy writing. Didn't ruin the season for me, but this was my least favorite season of Fargo thus far. That's like a 9 versus a 9.5 and a 10, comparatively though.
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Jun 24, 2017 22:40
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PaybackJack posted:The only thing I didn't really like about this season was Shea Whigham's character of the Police Chief. His dismissal of Gloria was necessary for the plot, but the mysogynistic aspects of his character felt too cheap for a show like this where just about every character is multilayered and interesting. I didn't like his character either, and it's such a shame they wasted such a great actor on a role so one dimensional that it could've been played by a glorified extra and it wouldn't have made a lick of difference to the character's, or show's quality. I didn't read him as a misogynistic rear end in a top hat though, rather just an rear end in a top hat who didn't have the time or patience to deal with anyone's eccentricities or former standing clashing with how he thinks modern police and detective work should be done, and would dismiss any such person's attempted contributions out of hand once they gave him a perceived amount of disrespect, disobedience, or disloyalty. Dude did not take kindly at all to getting dissed yo, and Burgle did sorta dis him in various ways from the outset iirc, or at the least did not try to adjust her style or approach in the slightest in ease of the new department's implementation or in aid of her own current career's future viability. In fact, she did sort of burn her bridges early on with no thought to anyone else in the department's situation. In fact, I can't really blame the new rear end in a top hat Chief for his belief in her seeming ineffectiveness as an investigator after she selfishly chased the longest of shots at the least likely of leads to California
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Jun 25, 2017 00:12
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precision posted:Yeah that's what I've been getting at, but I didn't pick up on her smile being that realization, and I believe you're right. In fact, I now believe that Gloria was telling a story to Varga. They were both telling each other stories that were equally likely, but equally unknowable to either of them (or us). I don't know, even understanding the motif of the season, I still have to say it's the weakest of the three. It just felt like Hawley got bored with the setting and tried to do something to shake up the formula, but couldn't fully realize it because his attention was divided with Legion. At least it was leagues better than True Detective season 2... oy.
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Jun 25, 2017 01:01
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Calico Heart posted:Between the first two seasons of the show, I read a comment on this forum that really stuck with me. "Fargo is the worst type of show because it thinks it's about something, but it isn't" This just sums it all up for me, especially the quote you mentioned at the beginning of your post. Lack of substance is also a risk you run with a show operating on such a narrow blueprint. When your formula for each season is so starkly the same, its not surprising that the ability to actually say something different grows increasingly more difficult. I'm thinking the show just started running out of mileage. From what I recall, season 2 worked much better, though part of that I think was just due to stronger characters and storyline. Burgle and Varga were just such one-dimensional caricatures of protagonist and antagonist that I stopped caring about either of them about halfway through. Her aversion to modern technology and relationship with her son were amongst the attempts at sympathetic characterization that in my opinion fell flat. The Stussies and Swango were okay, though the Cain and Abel reprise was not as interesting as the show thought it was, and was actively undermined by the gimmick of "hey, its two Ewan MacGregors!" On top of all that, I felt clubbed over the head with the season's Kafkaesque theme. I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with that angle at all. Its a longstanding potent theme in art, but it felt overdone in this case, and possibly even a bit lazy, as a mode of making up for lack of nuance in character and story by painting over them with a heavy brush. mary had a little clam posted:"Am I just not connecting with someone's artwork for valid reasons of taste? Nah, they're making art in bad faith. Yeah, that's the ticket!" Sorry somebody didn't like something you like
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Jun 25, 2017 03:47
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King Vidiot posted:He only gave Emmitt enough misinformation to make Emmitt feel like he wasn't in control, and that having a gun gave him no extra leverage in that situation. Even killing Varga right then would've done nothing for Emmitt except hasten his own death, the mercenaries wouldn't have hesitated to gun him down after the fact. And they definitely would have if Emmitt tried to pull the trigger but the gun failed to fire. Schrodinger's Fargo? The door both remains closed and opened until someone advances the time frame five more minutes? Edit in: never read from the last post backward, because I stumble onto "Schrodinger's Cop" in the wrong order... Kataphract fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Jun 25, 2017 |
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Jun 25, 2017 07:45
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I also have to admit that Deaf Guy from Season One felt completely awful to me in this season. I kept asking why he was there, what the point of him was, what was motivating him etc. You'd think it was money, but in the end he avenged his dead partner/granted her last request. Why did he care about her at all? They were literall forced together, and though they worked together we never saw them actually share any moments that would make me think they liked each other or sympathised with the others' goals. The last time we saw Deaf Guy he split after his longtime partner and friend was killed - are we to take it he cared more about this lady he knows nothing about that his buddy from the first season who was fluent in sign and seemed to have worked with him for years? Or that this dude who we saw kill an innocent man and dump in a lake cares about the goals of someone he's chained to? That he's willing to go to jail for that even after getting his money? It felt like the worst kind of fanservice, because it wasn't just a cameo - they pretended he was a plot-important character when he absolutely wasn't.
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Jun 25, 2017 10:11
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Calico Heart posted:I also have to admit that Deaf Guy from Season One felt completely awful to me in this season. I kept asking why he was there, what the point of him was, what was motivating him etc. You'd think it was money, but in the end he avenged his dead partner/granted her last request. Why did he care about her at all? They were literall forced together, and though they worked together we never saw them actually share any moments that would make me think they liked each other or sympathised with the others' goals. The last time we saw Deaf Guy he split after his longtime partner and friend was killed - are we to take it he cared more about this lady he knows nothing about that his buddy from the first season who was fluent in sign and seemed to have worked with him for years? Or that this dude who we saw kill an innocent man and dump in a lake cares about the goals of someone he's chained to? That he's willing to go to jail for that even after getting his money? Unless you mean at the very, very end when he shows up for a quick little murder. That was just his vengeance for Nikki. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Jun 25, 2017 11:26
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And like everything else in this show, it's a miscommunication. Wrench thinks Emmitt killed Ray so he's delivering justice. Wrench had too large a role too late in the series. It'd be like Molly popping with 2 episodes left and helping Gloria break the case. But I can see why he and Nikki hit it off. The crime syndicate he'd been a part of since childhood is gone along with his mentor and his best friend. He's probably been drifting for the last few years and finally found a purpose.
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Jun 25, 2017 14:40
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Emmitt didn't deserve to die. Nicky was a horrible person who is ultimately responsible for Ray's death. This is my opinion.
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Jun 25, 2017 15:08
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Calico Heart posted:Between the first two seasons of the show, I read a comment on this forum that really stuck with me. "Fargo is the worst type of show because it thinks it's about something, but it isn't" Just because you or that person didn't get something doesn't mean there wasn't meaning behind it.
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Jun 25, 2017 16:48
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The loving recording hosed up again and for some reason just cut to commercial in the middle of a scene, which meant I missed Nikki getting shot in the head after killing a cop? I need to rewatch this episode and episode 8 later just for the scenes I missed for seemingly no reason. Oh, and the scene between Dollard and Gloria. And that the Widow Goldfarb is involved.
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Jun 25, 2017 19:44
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Henchman of Santa posted:which meant I missed Nikki getting shot in the head after killing a cop? Nikki and the cop shot each other at the same time
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Jun 25, 2017 20:29
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ChesterJT posted:Just because you or that person didn't get something doesn't mean there wasn't meaning behind it. Conversely, what is deep and meaningful to you may be shallow and trite to me 
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Jun 25, 2017 21:59
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Accretionist posted:Another reason to never take a time-machine past 1980. this makes me want to die
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Jun 25, 2017 23:35
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did varga teleport at the end and in the elevator?
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Jun 25, 2017 23:35
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Kurtofan posted:did varga teleport at the end and in the elevator? he climbed out of the top
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Jun 25, 2017 23:36
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Calico Heart posted:Between the first two seasons of the show, I read a comment on this forum that really stuck with me. "Fargo is the worst type of show because it thinks it's about something, but it isn't" I felt this way about the season too. I recognize and appreciate what they were trying to do with this season thematically but I thought it lacked the tightness and emotional core that the previous two seasons had. To me the biggest problem with S3, even beyond all the stylistic overindulgence that goes nowhere (stuff like the Peter & the Wolf bit or everything about that Hollywood episode) is that it feels like Noah Hawley didn't really get why S2 was so good. It had a lot of indulgent sidebars and stylistic quirks, but it was still anchored by a cast of complex, likable, and flawed characters. Even the antagonists had deeper motivations and quirks beyond being a stand-in for Hawley's concept of evil. Half the characters in S3 are inhuman hyper-competent ciphers that don't do much other than kill people efficiently and act as mouthpieces for what the writers wanted to say, and the other half that aren't either die quickly, get sidelined from the plot, or turn into ciphers themselves (like Nikki or Gloria, who gradually become less interesting as the season progresses). I feel like Hawley & co. got so caught up in the grander themes and presentation of what they wanted to write that they forgot to include a compelling cast/plot as a foundation.
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Jun 26, 2017 00:43
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This was a season of great moments and an underwhelming overall product. The first two seasons are pretty much perfect and the first season of Legion is my favorite TV of this year so I can't get too mad about it.
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Jun 26, 2017 00:49
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Wafflecopper posted:Nikki and the cop shot each other at the same time Yup, not much more to it than that unless you were extremely invested in her second chance "purpose" subtext microplot HorseRenoir posted:I felt this way about the season too. I recognize and appreciate what they were trying to do with this season thematically but I thought it lacked the tightness and emotional core that the previous two seasons had. Definitely spot on about the latest round of Fargo characters. Even when something potentially interesting or revealing happened with any of them, it never really contributed to advancing the plot in an exciting or unexpected, attention-grabbing way, or shed new light on the character that might add a new layer or perspective about them that would make you actually care about them, nor was there anything truly revelatory to surprise you with, usually just what you already knew about them anyway, except more extreme and over the top
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Jun 26, 2017 02:24
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Heh. Ray's a kitten. :3
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Jun 26, 2017 02:42
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Calico Heart posted:Conversely, what is deep and meaningful to you may be shallow and trite to me You didn't say shallow or trite, you said it had no meaning which is factually incorrect. The best kind of incorrect.
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Jun 26, 2017 05:19
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HorseRenoir posted:I felt this way about the season too. I recognize and appreciate what they were trying to do with this season thematically but I thought it lacked the tightness and emotional core that the previous two seasons had. This expresses my feelings on the season much better than I could have, beyond saying: 'thematically, it was brilliant; as a narrative, it was eh'.
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Jun 26, 2017 20:16
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I was not able to get into this season, I felt like I kept waiting for it to 'get good' and it never really did. It never gave me a reason to like any of the characters and it felt like everything went nowhere.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:07
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