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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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I usually stay out of posting in this thread but I do have something to offer: My best friend is an honest-to-goodness small business owner. He runs a retail store out of a mall. He is a very hands-on owner who is at the business 44+ hours a week and does all bookkeeping. He has 10 employees. We've had the conversation about the minimum wage thing with carve outs for small business. Anecdote is not data but here are some of his takes: He has told me that carve-outs for small business would be absolutely not matter in his case. He has already had trouble retaining and hiring staff due to a large business opening nearby and sucking up all lower-wage labor. He has had to raise his payroll by around 15% since then just to keep the people he has and entice new people. If they could make 15 dollars elsewhere they will go unless he matches it. His take on the minimum wage: as mentioned he doesn't pay absolute minimum wage, he pays around 12 dollars an hour average right now because of competition. His company is mostly treading water and grows by about 1% - 3% yearly. Raising payroll without changing anything else would probably result in him closing as at that point he would be working those same hours for less than 20k a year. However there's lots of things that could prevent this. He is friendly with the owners of the smaller stores in the mall and most of them are on the same thin margins. So presumably a minimum wage increase would cause a domino effect of all the smaller stores closing unless mall rents were reduced. Admittedly the money for the mall management is in the big anchor stores but it still could have an effect. He also admits that a significant amount of his product is bought by upper middle class government people who wouldn't have much more spending power after the increase; this is a quirk of the market he's in. Presumably stores that had a large customer base of people working for minimum wage would get an uptick in business, maybe enough to cover the increase in payroll. But most likely he is going to close the business inside of 3 years anyway. It's incredibly tough out there and like he put it "I've been around for 10 years, I've beat the odds but this is just too tough and I'm not sure I can ride out another downturn." Ah, the glamorous life of an entrepreneur.
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May 19, 2017 23:00
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:He also admits that a significant amount of his product is bought by upper middle class government people who wouldn't have much more spending power after the increase; this is a quirk of the market he's in. Presumably stores that had a large customer base of people working for minimum wage would get an uptick in business, maybe enough to cover the increase in payroll. If he's catering to the well-off, then he should be charging higher prices. Isn't charging as much as your target market can afford to pay before customers drop off too precipitously Business 101? Assuming bespoke products, since msrp poo poo can be bought anywhere. Mister Facetious fucked around with this message at 01:15 on May 20, 2017 |
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May 20, 2017 01:09
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Mister Facetious posted:If he's catering to the well-off, then he should be charging higher prices. Isn't charging as much as your target market can afford to pay before customers drop off too precipitously Business 101? Because then people would just buy things online?
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May 20, 2017 01:11
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Ah, the glamorous life of an entrepreneur. Mind sharing how much money he made over that time?
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May 20, 2017 01:14
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Because then people would just buy things online? I was assuming bespoke/proprietary goods. If it's just msrp, well only antitrust laws will help him against the retail giants, and even Obama stopped enforcing them at all by 2014.
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May 20, 2017 01:17
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Bob le Moche posted:The governments of first world economies are controlled by the capitalist ruling class and work for them, not for workers. Heh you mean like this guy. Anyway I wish, they would have given us president Clinton Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I usually stay out of posting in this thread but I do have something to offer:
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May 20, 2017 01:30
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It's funny though. Please don't listen to my advice. It's going to be tons of fun when all these small businesses shutter. Sure, wages will be $15 but when we have 10% unemployment with no jobs in sight because of it well...I'm sure everyone in this thread is going to be so much more happier.
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May 20, 2017 01:32
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:It's funny though. Please don't listen to my advice. It's going to be tons of fun when all these small businesses shutter. Ah yes, a consumer base flush with extra cash, nothing kills demand faster.
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May 20, 2017 01:33
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:It's funny though. Please don't listen to my advice. It's going to be tons of fun when all these small businesses shutter. why do you assume that the people making 7$ an hour will not spend that money this strikes me as an odd assumption
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May 20, 2017 01:33
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Ze Pollack posted:why do you assume that the people making 7$ an hour will not spend that money "Great, now everyone's making more money; they're not going to buy the garbage we sell, they're going to move up to the next level!" 
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May 20, 2017 01:38
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Did you guys really not understand the content of the post? Also LOL if you think people are going to be awash in cash if they make $15 in 6 years from now instead of 12 or 13. All that money will go to payday loans, health care costs, and liquor. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 20, 2017 01:45
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Hmm I wonder how ISeeCuckedPeople feels about the working poorquote:All that money will go to payday loans, health care costs, and liquor. 
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May 20, 2017 01:53
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Ze Pollack posted:why do you assume that the people making 7$ an hour will not spend that money Christ you're dumb. Min wage doesn't pay for itself and that's actually they only way it works - if the wages aren't subsidized by richer people the policy doesn't do anything. But those richer people have options like hire foreign workers and buy machines.
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May 20, 2017 01:54
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Where do you think all this extra cash is going to come from? Perhaps the business owner described above will just poo poo out out?
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May 20, 2017 01:55
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:It's funny though. Please don't listen to my advice. It's going to be tons of fun when all these small businesses shutter. Honest question - when this doesn't happen will you change your mind and admit you were wrong? If what you're saying is true and we end up with really high unemployment as a result of increasing the minimum wage, I promise to admit you were right. I mean, not that I'm terribly concerned since that really obviously isn't going to happen. ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Did you guys really not understand the content of the post? Why is it that you think $12 is okay but $15 would just be too far? asdf32 posted:Christ you're dumb. Min wage doesn't pay for itself and that's actually they only way it works - if the wages aren't subsidized by richer people the policy doesn't do anything. But those richer people have options like hire foreign workers and buy machines. Aren't most of the jobs that pay less than $15/hr (or at least much less than that) that can be outsourced already outsourced? It seems like this will generally cover retail and service jobs that can't be moved. Also I've noticed that you tend to not make actual arguments and instead just vaguely cast doubt on the things other people say. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:01 on May 20, 2017 |
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May 20, 2017 01:56
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asdf32 posted:Christ you're dumb. Min wage doesn't pay for itself and that's actually they only way it works - if the wages aren't subsidized by richer people the policy doesn't do anything. But those richer people have options like hire foreign workers and buy machines. actually it does, by prying capital out of the skeletal fingers of the rich and freeing it up for use by the poor, causing some of the strongest economic benefit there is. https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2016/07/26/new-research-seattles-minimum-wage-hike-shows-sky-has-not-fallen/211913 likewise, taxing away the excess wealth of the idle rich before they waste it on idiot things will help strengthen the economy, especially when that wealth is invested into social welfare programs
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May 20, 2017 01:58
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lol mediamatters Also, that's not really how taxes work. What happens in practice is that the government taxes people heavier and then it just gets concentrated for the government's pork projects. See also: the state of California's gargantuan budget.
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May 20, 2017 02:02
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:It's funny though. Please don't listen to my advice. It's going to be tons of fun when all these small businesses shutter. Reactionaries always wail about the coming unemployment every time the minimum wage is raised and they have never been right, ever.
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May 20, 2017 02:06
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Ytlaya posted:Also I've noticed that you tend to not make actual arguments and instead just vaguely cast doubt on the things other people say. That's not fair, he also has opinions on lawn darts.
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May 20, 2017 02:06
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ISIS CURES TROONS posted:lol mediamatters california also has one of the biggest economies in the world so i'm not surprised it has a big budget
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May 20, 2017 02:12
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Ytlaya posted:Honest question - when this doesn't happen will you change your mind and admit you were wrong? Like I said I'm not opposed to minimum wage increases. I just believe small businesses should be taken into account and their hardships should be offset by tax cuts through a progressive taxation programs. I think though, if that is not done, eventually the small towns of America will die as their small businesses and reason to exist collapse. People will be forced to move to the city to find jobs, and pay much more in terms of housing, which is already sky high. The US is already hemoraging jobs. But you got a lot of people in this thread who have never started any kind of business or ran it. Or have any kind of clue what it takes to run one, thinking that if you get rid of small businesses things will be better off for everyone. I disagree. I think America will be much worse if small businesses are killed off. You don't care about small business, entrepeneurship, or the middle class. You only care about the lower class. These are some of the main reasons Trump won. I'm heartened that nobody really gives a gently caress what you guys think, and people like you will never influence actual policy because a lot of people in this forum are more to the left than 95% of most americans and even the majority of the Democratic party. When you are president of the biggest country on earth you represent so much more than lower class, or middle class, or black people, or white people. You represent everyone. And you have to enact policy that improves the lives of everyone. You shouldn't be allowed to pass legislation that unfairly targets certain groups or income levels or demographics for punishment just because of personal spite and grudges. We've seen how doing that goes down in other countries. In Brazil, Bolivia and Venezuela. So while you may want laws and a party that represents your narrowminded worldview, I chose the opposite. I want policy that improves the lives of everyone involved and if you can't give it to me than you can gently caress off.
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May 20, 2017 02:13
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:I want policy that improves the lives of everyone involved and if you can't give it to me than you can gently caress off. Oh my god the irony. No one here wants to kill of small businesses just for the lulz of it.
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May 20, 2017 02:14
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asdf32 posted:Christ you're dumb. Min wage doesn't pay for itself and that's actually they only way it works - if the wages aren't subsidized by richer people the policy doesn't do anything. But those richer people have options like hire foreign workers and buy machines. and yet, bizarrely, every raise of the minimum wage has failed to produce the apocalypse you predict. if anything, the opposite has occurred. weird, isn't it.
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May 20, 2017 02:15
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WampaLord posted:Oh my god the irony. Then why are you opposed to tax relief for true small businesses struggling between the vices of online retailers, wal-mart big box stores and the banking conglomerates? Why are you opposed to progressive taxation and why do you believe in one size fits all for business?
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May 20, 2017 02:17
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Ytlaya posted:Aren't most of the jobs that pay less than $15/hr (or at least much less than that) that can be outsourced already outsourced? It seems like this will generally cover retail and service jobs that can't be moved. when he does he forgets that managers pay themselves a salary, or forgets how basic math functions. the man knows absolutely nothing about economics beyond a desperate hope that the current system is the best thing that can possibly be achieved.
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May 20, 2017 02:17
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That was the dumbest post I've ever read on these forums, no exaggeration
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May 20, 2017 02:18
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Then why are you opposed to tax relief for true small businesses struggling between the vices of online retailers, wal-mart big box stores and the banking conglomerates? Businesses are only taxed on their profits. If they're complaining about taxes, they're profitable, and hence my sympathy can't extend as far as it can for poor people making $7.35 an hour.
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May 20, 2017 02:18
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Then why are you opposed to tax relief for true small businesses struggling between the vices of online retailers, wal-mart big box stores and the banking conglomerates? handouts to small businesses on grounds that your daddy doesn't want to work for anyone else, also wants the rest of us to pick up the cost of keeping his employees in room and board somehow fail to elicit our sympathy, what can we say
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May 20, 2017 02:18
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Lol. Mister "why should we pay workers, they'll just spend it on booze anyway" is complaining about hatefulness poisoning political discourse.
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May 20, 2017 02:19
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Then why are you opposed to tax relief for true small businesses struggling between the vices of online retailers, wal-mart big box stores and the banking conglomerates? Quote someone saying that, because seems to me you're just strawmanning all support for a living wage as this.
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May 20, 2017 02:21
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lovely jobs that don't pay a living wage should not exist and "small businesses" that rely on them should disappear. If your business can only function by exploiting people who are desperate because of the misery this economic system forces them into, and you can't even make a consistent profit doing so, don't loving come begging for sympathy and act like you're entitled to anything.
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May 20, 2017 02:22
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small businesses could easily afford to pay their workers a living wage with the added sales that would come from people being paid a living wage. the owner class is shooting itself in the foot with its psychotic need to accumulate all possible wealth. more equal wealth distribution will result in more prosperity for all, including the rich.
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May 20, 2017 02:26
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Bob le Moche posted:lovely jobs that don't pay a living wage should not exist and "small businesses" that rely on them should disappear. Fine, what if that means a 10% unemployment rate?
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May 20, 2017 02:27
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Condiv posted:small businesses could easily afford to pay their workers a living wage with the added sales that would come from people being paid a living wage. the owner class is shooting itself in the foot with its psychotic need to accumulate all possible wealth. more equal wealth distribution will result in more prosperity for all, including the rich. That's the most insane part of all this, literally everyone would be doing better if more money was flowing through the economy yet we haven't seen a federal minimum wage hike in years.
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May 20, 2017 02:29
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Fine, what if that means a 10% unemployment rate? Switch to a 20 hour work week
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May 20, 2017 02:29
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Small business owners, middle managers, petty landlords and other small-time bosses form the class basis of all fascist movements. When the economy enters into crisis they are so loving terrified of losing their position and of having to live like the rest of the working class, so entitled and so desperate to cling to what little privilege they still have, that they will not hesitate to gently caress over the poor, immigrants, and the marginalized, in an attempt to maintain an underclass for them to stay on top of, instead of joining with everyone else to take back control from the ruling class.
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May 20, 2017 02:34
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Fine, what if that means a 10% unemployment rate? What if it means a 2% unemployment rate?
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May 20, 2017 02:35
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VitalSigns posted:Lol. Mister "why should we pay workers, they'll just spend it on booze anyway" is complaining about hatefulness poisoning political discourse. You are putting words in my mouth and misunderstanding my intention. The point is that $15 is not enough to make anyone substantially better of. It is a drop in the bucket. The real causes of poverty in America go beyond wages and income. While money will make things a little better it is only part of what needs to be done to help the poor in the country. We need to fund education, focus on ending addiction and the cycle of poverty, stop systematic racism and empower people to make healthy decisions. We need to change as a culture. Bob le Moche posted:Small business owners, middle managers, petty landlords and other small-time bosses form the class basis of all fascist movements. When the economy enters into crisis they are so loving terrified of losing their position and of having to live like the rest of the working class, so entitled and so desperate to cling to what little privilege they still have, that they will not hesitate to gently caress over the poor, immigrants, and the marginalized, in an attempt to maintain an underclass for them to stay on top of, instead of joining with everyone else to take back control from the ruling class. I love these marxist analyzations. Please post more as the left continues to shrink to the smallest it's ever been world wide and marxists cause massive economic crisises in country after country.
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May 20, 2017 02:35
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Also, we need to raise the minimum wage. People shouldn't be allowed to pay below a living wage. If we want to provide those services via taxes I'm all for it. But until then, pay a living wage or get hosed.
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May 20, 2017 02:36
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Ytlaya posted:Aren't most of the jobs that pay less than $15/hr (or at least much less than that) that can be outsourced already outsourced? It seems like this will generally cover retail and service jobs that can't be moved. That's the best case scenario but there is no guaranteeing it. We just had a perfectly plausible story posted of a business that would probably go under in a $15 minimum wage scenario. Benefits may outweigh the cons but that takes evaluation, not ideology. I hope to do a lot better than cast doubt in cases like this: another implication that small businesses must be fine but who cares anyway: Condiv posted:small businesses could easily afford to pay their workers a living wage with the added sales that would come from people being paid a living wage. the owner class is shooting itself in the foot with its psychotic need to accumulate all possible wealth. more equal wealth distribution will result in more prosperity for all, including the rich. Ze Pollack posted:when he does he forgets that managers pay themselves a salary, or forgets how basic math functions. the man knows absolutely nothing about economics beyond a desperate hope that the current system is the best thing that can possibly be achieved. Heh, first time I've said this but read more marx if you think manager salary was remotely relevant.
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May 20, 2017 02:38
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