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I think the whole Magneto arc in Morrison's run was a reaction in a lot of ways to 1990s comics in general, and post-Claremont X-Men specifically. It was the decade where Much of the Claremont --- Morrison interregnum was a series of attempts to "rehab" Deadpool, Emma Frost, Sabretooth, Mystique, Juggernaut, Goblin Queen, etc. etc. etc., and when it wasn't that it was revealing deep dark murderous secrets from the past of Psylocke and Gambit and Wolverine and etc. Some of these developments actually worked, not unlike Claremont's storyline redemptions of Rogue, Magneto, and others. A lot of them just sort of hand-waved away torture and mass murder and sadism and used the same "well you know [other team member] used to be a criminal too!" as if Hawkeye's teenage carny thieving is equivalent to being an assassin for hire for a decade or whatever. There was (is?) a tendency to really forgive a ton of evil when it's done by the Noble Tragic Flawed Villain/Anti-Hero, whether it's Doctor Doom and Magneto or Walter White and Tony Soprano or Darth Vader or George W. Bush or whomever. And it's worth remembering that the storyline that Marvel chose to run immediately preceding Morrison's revamp involved Magneto kidnapping and crucifying Xavier in his war palace as a sign of what he would do to people disloyal to him in the coming Mutant vs. Human war he planned on starting. It would be kind of weird to do a "aww, ol' Magneto isn't so bad, he's just got anger issues" as the direct follow-up.
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Sep 5, 2019 23:30
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I think Morrison's whole point is that (with certain characters, if you take Morrison's general "everything counts" attitude) you can't really take someone's promise of reformation seriously the tenth or fifteenth time they go "yeah I murdered a grip of people and attempted to exterminate and/or subjugate the human race but I'm a changed man and there's no way I'd try it a sixteenth time!" He did a similar thing (which I also understand how people don't really like it) with Cyclops, whose arc always seemed to be "something super traumatic happened to me and my family but you know, I'm a stoic and good man and I'm just going to handle my poo poo and move on, no big deal!" He let Cyclops actually have the nervous breakdown he probably deserved after the fourth or fifth "you have a secret brother"/"your dad isn't really dead, he's a space pirate"/"your girlfriend is an evil god"/"your girlfriend is dead"/"your girlfriend might be back from the dead no wait it's just a girl who looks like her"/"your girlfriend isn't dead after all!"/"your wife is actually a clone and also a demon"/"your demon clone wife is trying to ritually sacrifice your son"/"your son has a deadly future disease and you'd better send him into the future"/"your son is back and a murderous cyborg dude or maybe that's just a clone of your son"/"your girlfriend is dead and/or a god again"/"you've been merged into an evil god and living in the sewers for the past six months trying to bring about the end of the world"/etc etc etc Some of this is just the nature of the beast, everyone wants to tell The Story with these big characters. It's why Spider-Man has had the general public and the hero community call him an untrustworthy good for nothing piece of poo poo they'll never respect before coming around to realizing he's a real hero like forty times. It's why Marvel's sliding timescale has compressed to the point that the Thing gets depressed and angry about how he's just an ugly rock monster no one likes before realizing it ain't so bad every 3-4 months. It's why Johnny Storm is a hothead with no sense of responsibility until he finally steps up and takes things seriously just for two weeks then becomes a hothead with no sense of responsibility again. It's why Reed Richards forgets to be a loving and caring member of a family and learns to love again every time a relative or friend has a birthday or anniversary. It's why Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne have reconciled and put the slap that ended their marriage behind them at least a dozen times before someone reminds them that it existed and they have to go through the reconciliation all over again. And yeah, it's why pretty much every single person since 1991 who's written an X-Men book for more than a few issues has rolled up their sleeves and gone "okay, can people accept Magneto as a hero? I''m finally going to be the one to write this story! But first I better have him threaten a genocide or three to push him to the brink." Morrison was just the first person post-Claremont to not bother. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Sep 6, 2019 |
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Sep 6, 2019 06:11
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I thought we didn't use spoiler tags once the issue was out? #6 is presumably about Cassandra Nova, but given the use of "gifted" and swapping samples, probably about the Mutant Cure storyline she was involved with in Whedon's Astonishing X-Men (first arc title: Gifted) as opposed to Morrison's New X-Men. #9 I assumed was Cannonball and Sunspot, though it doesn't line up perfectly for them (or anyone else, really).
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Sep 11, 2019 21:26
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I think the root of this really was Onslaught. In the run-up to that storyline (and as part of the continuing "Who is the X-Traitor mentioned in Bishop's future?") thing, Mark Waid and others started referencing some of the dubious Silver Age Era things that Xavier did (his unrequited love for Jean, some morally dubious "I'll just mindwipe everyone so we can wrap up this story" moments) to imply that maybe Xavier isn't such a heroic fellow. Of course once the Onslaught story kicked off properly it was made clear that Onslaught was some sort of weird mix of Xavier and Magneto's brainwaves and no, Xavier is not actually a traitor or a long-scheming villain, but they already opened the door to making Things That Writers in 1964 Didn't Think Were Unheroic an official part of the modern Xavier character makeup. There was a solid 20-25 years that (to my knowledge) no one acknowledged in comics Xavier's silver age foibles anymore than they spent a lot of time harping on how chauvinist the FF were towards Susan sometimes, how Peter would have teenage rage fits that made him sound like a school shooter in some early Lee/Ditko Spider-Man, how manipulative and hosed up (even by superhero standards) some of the gaslighting secret identity ploys Tony Stark, Matt Murdock, and others would pull on their closest friends, etc. By surfacing that stuff in modern comics, other writers/editors/fans sort of go "this is on the table, let's turn it into a core character trait!" Xavier spent several years post-Onslaught kind of out of the spotlight. First he was imprisoned by the government/Bastion, then he got freed by the Brotherhood and agreed to try to rehab them (mostly off-panel) to fight the now-sentient-and-evil Cerebro, then he went off into space to mentor some Skrull mutants, and from what I remember/can find with some light research, didn't really hook back up with the "main" X-Men team/storylines until right before Morrison took over in 2001; he came back when Moira died, then almost immediately was captured and crucified by Magneto in the last story to set the stage for Morrison's run. Immediately after Morrison's run came Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, which had the whole "the Danger Room was a sentient AI that Xavier enslaved/brainwashed for the greater good" as its first storyline, which really officially kicked off the current era of retconning new dubious things into Xavier's past/character. Or maybe I'm forgetting something between Onslaught and Astonishing X-Men? Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Sep 16, 2019 |
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Sep 16, 2019 18:51
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Soonmot posted:oh... oh honey, I have some bad news...
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Sep 17, 2019 08:19
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Proteus has come back/kind of come back a bunch of times between the original story and now. He was brought back by a conspiracy between puppetmasters Gideon and Toad in the 1990s "Kings of Pain" annual crossover, but convinced to kill himself. Then he almost came back in Excalibur when Mister Sinister tried to clone him, but he didn't actually bring him back but it established his energy/soul was still out there and could be cloned, I guess? Then Proteus came back in Exiles and I think he was supposed to be The Real Proteus or something, but eventually got written out. Then he came back as part of the Necrosha crossover in Mike Carey's X-Men Legacy. Then he came back in the aforementioned Charles Soule Astonishing X-Men. And now he's back again.
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Sep 18, 2019 23:19
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The Question IRL posted:Also the original plan for Joseph when he showed up way back in the late 90's was he was supposed to be Proteus who had created a new body and given himself Magneto's powers (to protect himself from his weakness, metal.) but had forgotten who he was. Hench why Magneto referred to him as an abomination and why he had such unbridled hatred (for reasons he didn't understand) when he looked at Moria Mactarget.
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Sep 19, 2019 03:19
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jng2058 posted:I do find it interesting that... Wolverine was sent to a covert death-robot-factory orbiting the sun with the goal of stopping a group of secret societies from building an army of death robots. I know they don't show the circumstances of Sabretooth gutting the warehouse security guards, but to use a human government metaphor, there's going to be (or there really should be, I know there are disappointing real world exceptions) a big difference between the scrutiny shown when a government official tasked with investigating tax fraud killing a bunch of people versus the government official attacking a terrorist cell and killing terrorists. I do think Hickman is intending all of this to be strange and of questionable morality moreso than 90% of other superhero comics, so you're not wrong to be questioning/interrogating all of these decisions, but honestly judging Sabretooth's killing differently than Wolverine's -- even if you find the punitive justice laid upon Sabretooth troubling -- is pretty far down on my list, personally. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Oct 3, 2019 |
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Oct 3, 2019 02:52
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Archyduchess posted:I'm also not sure when this fall-out with Magneto alluded to in the text piece happens, how long it lasts, what's been quietly retconned-- like, I don't know, was ripping Wolverine's adamantium out part of the plan? MOIRA IS 17? 05 - This is right after the scene of Moira "opening her mind" to Xavier, so clearly X^0 MOIRA IS PROBABLY 25 17 - They talk about both Legion and Proteus as not-yet-born people, so this is also long before X-Men #1 MOIRA IS 43 22 - Magneto recruited - still before X-Men #1, given the sequence 29 - "Apocalypse has made himself known" - I was going to say this should be around the time of Fall of the Mutants, but upon reflection Apocalypse could have "made himself known" well before that, either in a pre-existing retcon or in a yet-untold X^0 story. MOIRA IS 31 ?? - Moira gives birth to Proteus 35 - Redacted 48 - Visiting Sinister - this is shown to be happening in "X^0", which if I'm reading the book correctly is all before Xavier recruits the original team from X-Men #1? MOIRA IS 47 52 - "Lost Magneto" - This basically could be anywhere between "before X-Men #1" and "prior to 2000 or so" MOIRA IS 50 57 - "Moira fakes her death" - This happens right before Morrison takes over in 2000 MOIRA IS 52 House of X Looking at this, the whole "Year One/Year Ten" thing seems deeply metaphorical, but given the compression of time at play in the timeline, you could still place Magneto's 'schism' anywhere in the timeline of the X-Men's publication; two years pass between Moira faking her death (pub date 2000) and House of X (pub date 2019). I hope the sequence of events (not really interested in placing them at discrete years, but at least within the story flow) that Hickman is flagging get better explored in Dawn of X.
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Oct 10, 2019 00:59
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As far as I know, Franklin Richards was first implicitly/explicitly identified as a "mutant" in Days of Futures Past, where he's in the Sentinel camps with everyone else. I don't think Claremont/et al were thinking that seriously about what did/didn't count as a mutant at that point, it was 1980 and Gruenwald's Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe was still a ways away. They may have called him a mutant in a FF issue previously, but they were pretty loosey-goosey with the term in the 1970s. OHOTMU launched in 1982, and not to diminish the contributions of dozens of other people, it was largely borne from the twin desires to professionalize/standardize the rules/style sheets/worldbuilding of the Marvel Universe (part of Jim Shooter's agenda) and to make sense of all of the comics and how they all fit together (Gruenwald and Peter Sanderson's pet projects). Prior to Days of Futures Past, the whole "mutants as opressed minority facing an existential threat to their very existence" wasn't nearly as foregrounded in the Essence of X-Men as it grew to be, and so striking a clear line between "mutant" and "superpowered human" was somewhat less important. The fact that they put the stakes down in the 1980s in a place that makes sense for 95% of mutants but not a few created before the edict (Rachel Summers, Siryn, Polaris) was probably the best compromise they could come up with. And as mentioned, by the mid 1990s they'd abandoned this definition pretty much entirely so they haven't felt beholden to it in over twenty years.
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Oct 10, 2019 23:05
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BrianWilly posted:My point WRT Franklin is that...it can be as "official" as possible, as outright confirmed in-canon multiple times over as long a period as you like through the most reliable sources that you can find in-universe...but all of that can be rendered obsolete the minute that it's no longer convenient for the character to be a mutant. Hickman recently called him a mutant in the books, but did he ever even use that word, even once, in all the long whiles that he writing the FF books? quote:Obviously, I don't like that characters' continuity can get tossed around willy-nilly for the sake of licensing. But all I'm saying is, all it takes is a single copyright change and we're right back to the days of studiously ignoring Franklin's status, or outright retconning it no matter what's been in these books. That's great, but your initial question was quote:I have to wonder about Franklin. Is it actually confirmed that he has the X-gene? I suppose it'd be weird if Reed hasn't had it genetically-confirmed.
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Oct 11, 2019 01:37
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galagazombie posted:I disagree with the idea that Xavier previously had mutants bend over backwards for humans and be model minorities. Most X-Men stories consist of the X-Men swooping in and being justifiably violent towards those that oppress them. The basic story structure goes, rear end in a top hat wants to do something racist> X--Men come in and start blasting people with Punch Lasers and stabbing them with claws> Moral lesson> Fin. The X-Men have never tried to stop Sentinels by tut-tutting them, they scrap them as a first resort.
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Oct 12, 2019 15:37
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danbanana posted:The gently caress did happen to Daken? He was brought back post-Remender X-Force right? Then he got better somehow and was in a bunch of comics including Sina Grace's Iceman and Tom Taylor's All-New Wolverine. There were various sort of off-hand references to how his healing factor was messed up or whatever, and then in the Return of Wolverine stuff he was captured and killed by SOTERIA and resurrected as like a zombie android soldier who got killed by Wolverine again using his HOT CLAWS. He's also in one of the group shots of THE BAD GUYS coming to Krakoa in HoX #5.
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Oct 17, 2019 01:03
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Android Blues posted:Apparently she shows up in the splash of villainous mutants arriving on Krakoa in HoX, which is a little sad given that the last time we saw her, she was a hero and a member of the X-Men in good standing. 3: Conducting a false-flag terrorist operation in cahoots with Crystal as some sort of propaganda campaign to help the Inhumans find a cure for mutants' Terrigen poisoning in All-New Inhumans 2: Brainwashed by Dr. Faustus to conduct a false-flag terrorist operation against HYDRA in order to give them pretext to attack New Tian in Secret Empire 1: As part of the emergency all-hands-on-deck team summoned by a psychic distress signal from Jean Grey at the end of X-Men Disassembled. This is not to say any of these were good uses of Frenzy (or good comics), but it's context enough to think she might be part of the same "the past is the past, come and join us" net that also included Not-Outright-Villains-But-Not-Pals like Random, Callisto, Marrow, and Lady Mastermind. Also genuine monsters like Selene and Emplate, but I don't think Wolverine was meant to suggest he thought all of the amnesty mutants were 'beyond saving'.
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Oct 21, 2019 04:38
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Rochallor posted:There was a weird reference to "North Valnon" as a country ruled by a kleptocratic family, which is weird, because North Korea has definitely appeared in other books and there are scenes set in both Russia and Taiwan here. Has Marvel been treading lightly around NK recently or something? I'm reading a lot fewer comics than I used to. If you have a random racist supersoldier and some mercenaries get beat up, it's fine to just call it "Russia" or "North Korea" or whatever real country. If you're going to do a whole plotline where the leader of a country is giving supervillain monologues and entering into a devil's bargain with [supervillain] and trying to invade other countries or whatever, that's when you go with Fake Country. That's presumably why they used Transia instead of I dunno, Turkmenistan for the X-Force series last year, and (I'm guessing) that's why Duggan is using North Valnon side by side with Russia. I was wrong about this, there are some throwaway references to it being the same place online but it's repeatedly identified as North Korea in the Deadpool comics, unless they retcon it when they reference it at the end of the run. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Oct 24, 2019 |
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Oct 23, 2019 23:24
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Marvel TV Topper Jeph Loeb to Exit You just missed one of them, Bobby
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Oct 25, 2019 19:18
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