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if you have a spare x86-64 virtual machine handy, you can boot the new demo of Mezzano that was released a few days ago, and enjoy an operating system built almost entirely in Common Lisp as far as I know the only part of the OS itself that's not written in either Lisp or a little inline assembly is the tiny first stage boot loader, everything else is Lisp including the TCP stack (including IPv6) and all of the device drivers unfortunately the user experience of the system isn't anything like a classic Lisp Machine: there's no status/mode line, no dired, no zmacs, just a few basic applications including an emacs-style editor (of course) and a simple Lisp listener atop a rudimentary compositing window system fortunately it's still pretty straightforward to modify while it's running: for the majority of Mezzano's code, you don't have to batch recompile and restart for your changes to take effect, you can just modify the code and reload, and watch your modifications take effect someone build awful.lisp now so it can be a poasting station
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Apr 13, 2017 01:48
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eschaton posted:if you have a spare x86-64 virtual machine handy, you can boot the new demo of Mezzano that was released a few days ago, and enjoy an operating system built almost entirely in Common Lisp (  )
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Apr 13, 2017 02:00
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 checks out
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Apr 13, 2017 02:33
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no thanks, op
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Apr 13, 2017 02:37
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This looks like good poo poo, op
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Apr 13, 2017 02:40
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I'm playing doom in lisp!
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Apr 13, 2017 02:43
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eschaton posted:someone build awful.lisp now so it can be a poasting station (read (eval (post (poop)))
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Apr 13, 2017 02:43
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eschaton posted:unfortunately the user experience of the system isn't anything like a classic Lisp Machine: there's no status/mode line, no dired, no zmacs, just a few basic applications including an emacs-style editor (of course) and a simple Lisp listener atop a rudimentary compositing window system honestly, i'd compare this to trying to use desktop linux right down to the osx clone window decorations
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Apr 13, 2017 02:46
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no i will not
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Apr 13, 2017 02:52
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akadajet posted:honestly, i'd compare this to trying to use desktop linux checks out.
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Apr 13, 2017 03:02
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lol
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Apr 13, 2017 04:35
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now all it needs is a text editor! ha ha!
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Apr 13, 2017 05:01
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there was some doofus who was all "yay now let's build a modern web browser in Lisp so we can access Wikipedia!" I don't think he "gets it"
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Apr 13, 2017 07:14
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i think he does
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Apr 13, 2017 08:39
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I don't get it what did people do on lisp machines
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Apr 13, 2017 08:47
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wrote AI-related software at defense contractors, petroleum companies, banks and financial services firms, telecom companies, and university and corporate research labs and in their off hours they wrote Usenet newsreaders and a couple video games (Spacewar and Asteroids, the Asteroids game really looks like the arcade, including the phosphor persistence) Symbolics was also big in 3D, they were basically Silicon Graphics before SGI was, but they were so goddamn slow to update their hardware (hanging everything on "Lisp is a secret weapon") that one year, all of SIGGRAPH was demoing with S-Graphics and the next year everyone was demoing with GL on Irix there wasn't nearly as much of a hacking scene as people think, it turns out, because not many places will let random undergrads get serious time on a $50,000 workstation that they're not even allowed to unbox without a technician present (seriously), sign an individual software license for, and pay 10-20% per year indefinitely for maintenance and people couldn't even take decommissioned systems home or anything, Symbolics demanded proof of decommissioning in order to allow you to stop paying maintenance; if you wanted to take a system home that work was decommissioning, you had to pay a license transfer fee ($5K) and then pay maintenance indefinitely ($1K or more per year) but you did get to use Lisp for everything, and before the First AI Winter, that was all some people really needed
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Apr 13, 2017 09:58
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eschaton posted:there wasn't nearly as much of a hacking scene as people think, it turns out, because not many places will let random undergrads get serious time on a $50,000 workstation that they're not even allowed to unbox without a technician present (seriously), sign an individual software license for, and pay 10-20% per year indefinitely for maintenance lmaooooooo what in the gently caress was the purpose of all that utter horseshit? every time I learn something about symbolics it gets more weird and hosed up
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Apr 13, 2017 11:41
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lisp is useless dogshit that only exists for academics to masturbate over
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Apr 13, 2017 11:50
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I like racket
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Apr 13, 2017 15:17
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let me know when they make an os in vi. also this: Sweevo posted:lisp is useless dogshit that only exists for academics to masturbate over
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Apr 13, 2017 16:13
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having said that, it would have made a lot more sense to have created the tensorflow interface in some kind of lisp variant instead of python.
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Apr 13, 2017 16:16
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without lisp you goofballs would still be banging out imperatives
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Apr 13, 2017 20:34
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[what?]
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Apr 13, 2017 20:36
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i write imperative style regardless of language
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Apr 14, 2017 00:43
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(begin expr ...+) 
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Apr 14, 2017 02:00
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Sweevo posted:lisp is useless dogshit that only exists for academics to masturbate over what academics though?
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Apr 14, 2017 13:52
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machine code is imperative. higher level languages that aren't are just scripting an imperative code generator.
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Apr 14, 2017 14:21
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Silver Alicorn posted:I don't get it
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Apr 14, 2017 14:34
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wrote Generic Tree Parsing Algorithm #2957
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Apr 14, 2017 15:11
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Silver Alicorn posted:I don't get it expert systems mostly. bayesian filtering, backward chaining. but it turns out that AI is still hard and the systems are brittle (their domains are small and going outside them leads to unintended consequences) and expensive (the hardware was expensive and you needed expensive talent to program them)... and there is always the knowledge acquisition bottleneck. like all the special purpose minicomputers they were slaughtered when consumer processors and memory got cheap enough that you didn't need bespoke hardware anymore to get useful performance. you don't need a 50k workstation with a squillion dollar service contract when you can just order some 386s/486s.
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Apr 14, 2017 15:26
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The Management posted:machine code is imperative. higher level languages that aren't are just scripting an imperative code generator. 
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Apr 14, 2017 16:18
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ultravoices posted:like all the special purpose minicomputers they were slaughtered when consumer processors and memory got cheap enough that you didn't need bespoke hardware anymore to get useful performance. you don't need a 50k workstation with a squillion dollar service contract when you can just order some 386s/486s. what's saddest about this is that they actually sort of understood this even before the MacIvory "LispM on a NuBus card" they had the UX series, which were a different configuration of the XL400 and XL1200 main CPU cards that could be used in a Sun (with 9U VME slots, like a Sun 3 or pre-SBus Sun 4) and be accessed via the command line and X11 companies like petroleum exploration companies would have these racked in Sun servers with a "check in/check out" system for logging into (since they were single user systems) but it meant they could deploy their applications using Xterms or low-end Suns instead of dealing with a full 300kg LispM per seat around the same time (late 80s) they also introduced CLOE, their "Common Lisp Operating Environment," where you could take software you'd developed in Genera and, with quite a few restrictions, compile it for deployment on commodity i386 systems running DOS or, once it came out, Windows 3 if they'd had a skunkworks to use their CLOE code generator to port their entire software stack to i386, even if it demanded 32MB or more of memory, they could have had way more life than they did by continuing to peruse custom hardware and having shipped CLOE at all means that someone inside had at least some idea that commodity hardware was worth considering—maybe I and some friends need to start trying to dig out that oral history, since even their final effort (OpenGenera on Alpha) didn't go in that direction eschaton fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Apr 15, 2017 |
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Apr 15, 2017 00:20
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speaking of OpenGenera, the Virtual Lisp Machine was ported to x86-64, and someone has actually "dockerized" it to work around some of its weird early-90s requirements (wanting to run as root and to have raw network access) if you want to give it a try
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Apr 15, 2017 00:22
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I just watched a 13 minute video to understand what a lisp machine actually does and now I want to kill myself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
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Apr 15, 2017 02:17
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The Management posted:I just watched a 13 minute video to understand what a lisp machine actually does and now I want to kill myself. because it's an improvement on its successors, right?
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Apr 15, 2017 05:00
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eschaton posted:because it's an improvement on its successors, right? I seriously have never seen a lisp machine before so I didn't know how it worked. it's definitely old-world shared memory mentality that seems bizarre in a protected memory world.
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Apr 15, 2017 06:10
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there's this weird myth that's grown up around lisp and lisp machines where the few dozen people who ever actually used them are convinced that lisp machines were really important and influential and central to shaping the hacker culture of the 70s and 80s, even though the total number of machines ever built is only a few thousand and anyone who claims to have used one is probably lying to impress other idiot greybeards
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Apr 15, 2017 11:08
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lisp was more than lisp machines, and was the one place one actually got high-level language features for like a solid 40 years of computing, it was almost by necessity influential as a feature at a time leaked into other systems also clojure is cool and good, whereas unfortunately cl is not going to start making it *now*, so the os effort is pretty pointless
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Apr 15, 2017 11:29
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why not just have a lisp shell wrap a normal os?? i guess i dont 'get it'
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Apr 15, 2017 13:14
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people with really bad ideas love building entire OSes around them see: modula-2/oberon, or losethos
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Apr 15, 2017 13:39
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