UKMT May 2017: Weak and Wobbly vs. Old and Knobbly

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT May 2017: Weak and Wobbly vs. Old and Knobbly

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

jabby posted:

So apparently Michael Foster, the Labour donor suspended last year for comparing Corbyn supporters to Nazi stormtroopers, is going to stand against Corbyn in Islington if he doesn't step down.

What is it with wealthy donors recently and thinking they can actually stand for election and win, especially as in independent? Does the money just go to their head and they figure they clearly will be made MP if they just throw some cash at the situation?

By islington standards he's not even that wealthy!

# ¿ May 1, 2017 01:15

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 3, 2024 23:31

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

UKMT poster spotted in the wild https://www.facebook.com/theguardian/videos/678643438990089/

# ¿ May 4, 2017 19:02

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

jBrereton posted:

"Let's let the 16 year olds vote because they agree with our ideas" is getting dangerously close to "my dog would not have voted for Brexit" territory tbh

My dog has an EU passport, of course he would have voted remain.

# ¿ May 11, 2017 13:20

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

This nice researcher would like you to do a survey

https://twitter.com/ej_odwyer/status/862659917068603394

# ¿ May 11, 2017 17:04

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Lid posted:

Cant find much on Salman Abedi but one thing is it seems that he was a British citizen. Not an immigrant.

well then, maybe you should stop playing at being an internet detective, and we can wait for actual, real information, to be released and reported on.

# ¿ May 23, 2017 14:39

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

croc suit posted:

I didnt realise the root cause was attendees of ariana grande concerts, my mistake comrade always glad to be reeducated in proper doctrine

please gently caress off and stop posting

# ¿ May 23, 2017 15:13

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

new phone who dis posted:

I'm sure being full of immigrants who benefit from the predatory form of globalism and multiculturalism currently being espoused has little to do with that. I won't be shocked when the communities that produce mass murderers vote to keep the governments who allowed that behavior to continue in place. Maybe you'd like to toxx on the general outcome of your nation's election instead of your chosen ethnic enclave? Do you think they will remain permissive as ever or choose strong and stable?

Miftan posted:

If I'm starving and they've got 5 yachts, then I would argue that they morally owe me a living, yes. Also, go gently caress yourself.

Aw man come on, just do 'The Jews' and I've got a bingo.

He is referring to Manchester's large jewish population here, isn't he?

# ¿ May 23, 2017 15:47

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

nopantsjack posted:

They're just asking questions guys isn't this forum called debate and discuss?

So much for the tolerant left...

# ¿ May 23, 2017 17:45

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

winegums posted:

When is it the papers come out in support of their preferred party? Surely it can't be long. We can predict most of them from the get go

Tories - Mail/Sun/Express
Labour - Mirror/??Indie

But what will the Guardian do? They can't support Farron/the Lib Dems now, there's loving nothing to support.

And the evening standard? Does George Osborne hate theresa may enough to not come out in her favour?

despite what this tread would have you think, the graun is the most consistently labour endorsing paper in the uk, and will do so almost unthinkingly.

I think the sentiment from this thread is because the graun is the paper mostly invested in the labour party and is mostly read and bought by labour voters. As a result its the venue of choice for internal labour battles, slights, slander and schoolyard politicking, which have been relentlessness during corbyns reign and for some reason posters in this tread have mistaken this for hating everything the labour party stands for.

# ¿ May 28, 2017 23:47

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

A recipe for pasta?

# ¿ May 29, 2017 15:52

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

https://twitter.com/Mike_Blackley/status/869194789643800577

Dear oh dear.

The SNP had already firmly put this on the table after brexit, saying open discussions is the blandest thing thing that could be be done, only someone like May would, you know, refuse to discuss a vote passed by a democratically elected national government.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 15:54

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

The vote - on an issue outside the competency of Holyrood - was after May had ruled out a second referendum.

The largest political party in Scotland, and a whole host of constitutional scholars disagree with you on this.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 16:15

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

That's why a second referendum has been scheduled as per the vote of the Scottish parliament oh wait hang on that didn't happen did it.

Come on pissflaps, you know you are intentionally misrepresenting the politics at play here.

A second indy ref without westminster approval remains an open question legal and political question until it actually (if ever) happens.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 16:22

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

feedmegin posted:

For a real-world demonstration of how all this works without Westminster consent, rest your peepers on Catalonia, btw. Is it independent yet? No? Well, that's how far unilateral independence referendums without the backing of constitutional law get you.

Scotland is very different from Catalonia, for a start its already recognized as nation separate from England and has been for its entire history, and thats without getting into its separate system of law etc etc, or any hardball politics the EU might want to play after brexit.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 16:55

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

I don't think the rest of the world would be very interested in our internal constitutional arrangements. States within the US can boast similar but that doesn't mean a Californian attempt at UDI would be any more successful. Scotland clearly isn't a 'separate nation' as it's part of the UK. It's a silly idea.

And that's not getting into this fantasy you have touched on that the EU will somehow demand Scottish independence as part of Brexit.

You outdo yourself in woeful misrepresentation here flaps: a state and a nation are very different things, please don't make the basic mistake of conflating them and I never even implied that the EU would 'demand' Scottish independence, but only and idiot would think brexit would force a reconsideration of their stance in regards to Scottish independence.

Rakosi posted:

Allies of the UK would only lose out by recognizing an independent Scotland; both sides would be weakened economically and militarily by being recognized and operational/logistical threats made to Trident and the like would do little to endear an independent Scotland to allies abroad who rely on the UK being able to militarily (read: politically) support operations where necessary. The RotW would prefer a united UK particularly during periods of international tension, IE now.

The UK doesn't have many allies that think of us very highly of us at the moment, and there are lots of states out there that would love to see the UK lose its place on the UN security council, and out main claim to these oversized boots recently have relied on having nuclear weapons and being 'representatives' of Europe.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 17:18

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

What is the difference between a state and a nation?

To quote the The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics:

quote:

nation‐state

Literally, a sovereign entity dominated by a single nation. A mythical and intellectual construct with a highly persuasive and powerful political force. It is the primary unit in the study of international relations. Yet although it has a specific meaning it is also a highly abused political term, especially when too readily applied to the �real� world. Its meaning is found in the coincidence of its two parent terms, �state� and �nation�. �State� refers to the political organization that displays sovereignty both within geographic borders and in relation to other sovereign entities. A world of nation‐states implies an international system of pure sovereign entities, relating to each other legally as equals. �Nation� refers rather to the population within, sharing a common culture, language, and ethnicity with a strong historical continuity. This manifests itself in most members in a sentiment of collective, communal identity. When the two concepts, �nation� and �state� are combined, this creates an enormously compelling mixture of legitimacy and efficiency for governing elites.

Unfortunately, there does not exist, has never existed, a nation‐state in the perfect sense. Nevertheless, it has commanded a strong following, as governments have endeavoured to attain the legitimacy and political stability it brings. It was used most effectively in the nation‐building of the nineteenth century, and has been the target more recently of many Third World governments hoping to build nations in support of their states as part of their socio‐economic development. A common strategy of elites in building a sense of internal cohesiveness is in creating strong enemy images from outside or within the society. It is often this feature that causes dynamic instability for nation‐states in the world system.

The later part of the twentieth century witnessed a decline in the power of the �nation‐states�, as other bodies gained power in international relations, bodies such as large multinational corporations, international organizations, and other collectivities. The rise of supranationalism, most clearly in the European Union, could well make the simple model of single‐level sovereignty implied by the nation‐state even more irrelevant. So could the problem of extranational minorities (such as Germans outside Germany, and Hungarians outside Hungary). For comparison, see also nationalism.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 17:26

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

You've provided the definite of 'nation state'.

Neither California nor Scotland are a nation state.

jesus loving christ pissflaps! I tried to find a, simple, concise entry, from a source you couldn't possibly find issue with, and I even highlighted the important sentences for you!

At this point you are either being willfully obtuse or lack basic reading comprehension.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 17:31

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

I think you're way past the point of being able to make a successful argument that Scotland could declare UDI and have it taken seriously by the international community.

We are arguing about if you understand the difference between a state and a nation now. It is a very basic political concept, which you appear not to get.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 17:42

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

No we are arguing about whether Scottish UDI is remotely possible or not.

I asked how you define the difference between nation and state because you seem to think it's the trump card in declaring California to be different to Scotland - but considering they both, by your own definitions, have attributes of both nations (shared culture) and states (are political units) all you've managed to do is argue against yourself.

You are woefully misrepresenting my argument here.

Lets go back and look at the thinks I said:

1. The constitutional case for or against a second indy ref without westminster approval is an open constitutional question until (if ever) it happens
2. Comparisons to Catalonia do not provide any answers here for a great variety of reasons, which I did not elaborate on, but alluded to the most obvious difference, which is the that Scotland has and continues to exist in a very different national and state context to Catalonia. This includes a strong separate national identity (hint, that's what the S and N in SNP stand for) and a differentiated state apparatus from England, often in a complex legal tangle.

The difference between a nation and a state is not a sliver bullet in any argument, but the complexities of the way in which the state and nation interact, and have interacted, in Scotland set it apart from many other independence campaigns. Defining a nation and a state is a very complex business, that academics have spent their lives agonizing over the details of, but recognizing that these are two distinct, and important concepts, is something that is a basic requirement for understanding anything about modern politics. The fact that the two often overlap, does nothing to invalidate anything I have said, in if you actually read the definition I quoted you would have seen that this issue is briefly addressed there.

I'm not going to continue arguing this with you on this, because you clearly just want to be right, and an adversarial style of argument isn't going to teach you anything new, but if you really aren't seeing the difference between a nation and a state, or why it matters, please do go and read up on it because as someone that spends all their time on the internet posting about politics you really owe it to yourself to get the same theoretical level as a first year undergraduate.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 18:33

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Pissflaps posted:

We were comparing Scotland to California, not Catalonia. You've trapped yourself in an irrelevant semantic cul de sac. UDI is not going to happen whatever label you choose to attach to that part of the UK.

If only for the sake of pedantry and your reading comprehension.

Catalonia comes from feedmegin question:

feedmegin posted:

For a real-world demonstration of how all this works without Westminster consent, rest your peepers on Catalonia, btw. Is it independent yet? No? Well, that's how far unilateral independence referendums without the backing of constitutional law get you.

You then introduced California when quoting my reply to feedmegin.

At no point have I mentioned California, or said anything else substantive since replying to feedmegin's post. You are arguing with a strawman of your own creation here, and doing so poorly.

# ¿ May 29, 2017 19:08

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

thehappyprince posted:

let the guardian die and give all of the donations to a new paper that does the investigative journalism without giving idiots like toynbee, kettle and moran 6 figure salaries imo

if only

lol at the idea that there will ever be a successful new newspaper again, let alone one that caters to the political whims of UKMT

# ¿ May 29, 2017 23:01

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

thehappyprince posted:

dan hodges has been wrong about pretty much every major political decision of the last 5 years. no idea why people still humour him as some kind of astute commentator.

the fact that he went from being a new labour spin doctor to working for the mail should tell you all you need to know.

# ¿ May 30, 2017 01:06

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:

Sweet, so I don't have to stay up late ala Brexit. Most excellent

ala brexit i am going to get horrifically drunk regardless of the outcome

# ¿ May 31, 2017 00:05

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

and then ala brexit decided weather this was a good or bad thing when I finally mange to switch on the tv the next afternoon and remember what happened

# ¿ May 31, 2017 00:05

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Going with 63%

gently caress it, im gonna say 69%, the funny sex number

also don't forget to :toxx:

for a charity lads, I'm going with centrepoint

# ¿ May 31, 2017 00:31

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

https://twitter.com/Official_Corbyn/status/869877752282959872

jez is bringing out the top bants

# ¿ May 31, 2017 12:35

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

thehappyprince posted:

yeah that is a worry but i think they'll recover in time

Im going to guess that he will be there by the studio, calling out May, but won't actually go on himself unless May snaps and turns up too.

# ¿ May 31, 2017 12:36

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

SpaceCommie posted:

That's not Corbyn's twitter.

Official:
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn

Some rando:
https://twitter.com/Official_Corbyn

My bad, someone might also want to inform the guardian live blog of this mistake lol.

e: it appears they have now taken this down as well

# ¿ May 31, 2017 12:47

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Lord_Adonis posted:

Is anyone here interested in participating in a new thread that asks questions and examines options regarding how UK citizens can retain their rights as EU citizens after Brexit, such as some of the proposals floating around regarding some kind of elective citizenship, or the prospects for emigrating to one of the EU 27?

As it happens, I have just learned that I wont be able to leverage my now deceased Paternal Polish Grandfather's and Polish/Ukrainian Grandmother's Polish citizenship against being able to obtain Polish citizenship, because my Father did not ever claim Polish citizenship, which sucks pretty badly- so if anyone else in the thread has Polish Grandparents, they will not provide an escape from Brexshit Britain.

Speaking on a purely anecdotal basis, I had an american friend who was in a similar position, but still had family in Poland. Anyway, lots of visits to the right local bureaucrat here and there and he got dual citizenship, because he was such a nice boy (like mid 20s lol) who could say clunkly, charming, things in his broken polish to all the old women working in the local government office, and why wouldn't you want someone like that moving back to into the old hometown.

# ¿ May 31, 2017 17:14

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

namesake posted:

Jokes on them because everyone loving loves covfefe apparently.

have you not tried the covfefe? its really goood

# ¿ May 31, 2017 20:07

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Party Boat posted:

This feels like desperation from the Sun, and I think it reflects worse on May than anyone else.

https://twitter.com/matt_dathan/status/870005670661304320

May wouldn't even let one of her employees take time off to grieve. This is why we need a Labour government.

# ¿ May 31, 2017 21:05

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Verizian posted:

What's the odds on a Tory majority but May losing her seat? That might be the funniest outcome of this dark timeline.

If this happens I might die of laughter on election night.

# ¿ May 31, 2017 21:18

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

Oberleutnant posted:

Worth pointing out for those few who don't know that Monopoly was invented by a woman (a teacher iirc) specifically to illustrate how hosed up capitalism is.
She was swindled by the game company and never paid properly for her work, which is darkly funny and also sickening.

although it really does make the perfect allegory for capitalism

# ¿ May 31, 2017 21:45

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 3, 2024 23:31

vodkat: Jun 30, 2012; cannot legally be sold as vodka

TheRat posted:

I love me some good Tory salt

https://twitter.com/NSoames/status/870022946269659136

top quality hashtaging there :allears:

# ¿ May 31, 2017 22:09

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT May 2017: Weak and Wobbly vs. Old and Knobbly