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Saw this last night. It was all right, but it has absolutely no faith in the viewer to understand anything -- if someone has an ideological position you can be sure that they'll practically look at the camera and explain it to the viewers two or three times, sometimes verbatim, to make sure you get it.
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Jun 3, 2017 20:46
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OMG JC a Bomb! posted:I was with this movie until the end. Why is Ares a British grandpa? Why did he have a moustache the whole time? The whole theater laughed at Freddy Mercury Ares, and the whole final showdown suffered for it. This is one of the things the movie gets absolutely, unequivocably right, though.
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Jun 4, 2017 06:45
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Steve Yun posted:Friends, let's examine the character of Dr Maru. So what you're saying is Wonder Woman is a half-assed version of Snow White and the Huntsman? 
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Jun 4, 2017 22:39
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:This movie gets all the credit in the world for doing the whole no man's land scene where people are saying "it's called no man's land because no man can cross it" without having to be the sort of garbage movie that has wonder woman say "good thing I'm no man" (even if that still was the implication of the scene) i mean it is that kind of movie though, just about everything except that scene
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Jun 4, 2017 23:02
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exquisite tea posted:It's interesting to me that superhero movies have become so ubiquitous over the last 15 years that we now get films like Logan and Wonder Woman, which are ostensibly about their heroes but also westerns and period pieces, respectively. Superheroes were the only genre to survive the Franchise Wars. So, now all movies are superhero movies.
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Jun 5, 2017 01:17
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Maxwell Lord posted:See I specifically thing it's wording like this that makes the arguments go on and on- the implication, even unintentional, that making it happier would be "treating the audience like children", and that this is Showing Us The World As It Is. It would, and it is, and this is precisely what made Snyder's films so refreshing. It's also important to make the distinction that acknowledging how hosed up the world is isn't cause for despair. MoS ends on an explicitly hopeful note and even as the Empire Strikes Back-esque emotional low point movie, BvS is still a call to arms to do the right thing, and Superman's death is a refutation of Luthor and Bruce's cynicism even while it is admittedly grim.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:49
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Maxwell Lord posted:I think that's as much a blinkered view as a Polyanna-esque 'everything's wonderful!' There's as much truth in comedy as in tragedy. You're miscasting the conflict here, though. It's not a question of comedy or tragedy, it's a question of how your story relates to the status quo. I like MoS for the same kind of reason I like, say, Dr. Strangelove or The Mouse That Roared; you can make a funny, light-hearted film about the nuclear bomb, to a greater or lesser degree, and that's totally legitimate. But if you make a movie about how the nuclear bomb solves all our problems and we're better off with it hanging over our heads than not, the problem isn't how cheerful or grim you are, the problem is you're a goddamn liar.
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Jun 5, 2017 04:08
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Incidentally for all that I think the movie condescends to its audience (and is weaker for it), on a purely tonal level I really like Wonder Woman. We as the audience know what's coming, we pretty much know that humanity is going to carry on with terrible wars with or without Ares, and in fact will be worse than ever without him -- but it also encourages the viewer to identify with Diana as she makes a progression from naive to disillusioned to confident.Maxwell Lord posted:Yeah, but the nuclear bomb is a real thing about which you can make actual assertions. Superman does not exist. Making him a lighthearted figure is not betraying reality, because there is no reality to betray. Power exists, and Superman has traditionally had a literal motto telling us what particular power he stands for.
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Jun 5, 2017 04:15
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Or put another way, I find MoS's Superman far less disturbing than the Donner movies' Superman, because he's deeply uncomfortable with the idea of being a god. The idea that power can express vulnerability and self-doubt, and want to avoid making our decisions for us, is ultimately far more comforting to me than the idea that a farm boy from Kansas is going to unilaterally make things his idea of "all right." You could argue that any story about morally righteous power is a fantasy -- it's basically what Lex Luthor does in BvS, and that would be cynical. But even then I'd still prefer the story that interrogates itself as a fantasy to one that doesn't.
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Jun 5, 2017 04:29
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Maxwell Lord posted:I think your mistake there is in thinking Donner's Superman never has moments of self doubt. You're mistaking the chirpy, seriocomic style with "has no internal conflict." The two are independent of each other. The Donner Superman sucks Lois Lane's memories out through a kiss and beats up mortal bullies in a petty act of vengeance.
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Jun 5, 2017 04:31
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Maxwell Lord posted:Doesn't Snyder's Clark also do the latter Not that I recall, but it's been a while. If he does it's before he takes up his calling, while in the Donner movies it's what he does after he's rediscovered himself as a hero at the very end of the film.
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Jun 5, 2017 04:34
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Maxwell Lord posted:Yes, but you can tell a story about the best use of that power (if such a thing exists) against a light or dark background, it's not inherently "better" to be "more real". Siegel and Shuster were able to tell some really political stories and also very clearly make them stories for kids. All right, but again, I'm not really interested in whether the stories are or are not political (I don't think the latter is even possible) or whether they're for kids or not -- I'm interested in what kind of politics they have. e: I guess this whole argument started over whether movies "treated the audience like children" but I'd submit that there's a difference between "suitable for children" and "treated like children" that anyone familiar with classic fairy tales would probably recognize. 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 04:40
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Steve Yun posted:That's Lester's Superman. Oh, sorry, you're right! I should have collectively referred to them by Reeve instead, I guess.
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Jun 5, 2017 05:41
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women should have the opportunity to make and star in mediocre, thematically muddled punchmans movies too
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Jun 8, 2017 21:37
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khwarezm posted:Thats nice dear. Very funny. I'm actually quite serious, though. The sooner it becomes normal, the sooner flops are just flops and aren't blamed on the director or star being a woman, the better it'll be for women stars and directors and, more broadly, for audiences.
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Jun 8, 2017 22:13
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I think the point here is that you can't compare The Conversation to this. That's like saying that a dictionary is a better book than a thesaurus. You can, and you should. The genre ghetto is an excuse, not an absolute barrier.
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Jun 8, 2017 22:18
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Steve Yun posted:Was Dr Poison supposed to be Turkish? Hard to say. The comics character is Japanese. Elena Anaya is Spanish.
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Jun 9, 2017 08:22
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I knew she let her live because, I mean, thematically it would make zero sense for her to kill her there. But the scene is poorly blocked, IIRC you see Dr. Poison cowering to the lower right of Wonder Woman and then the next shot is Wonder Woman throwing the tank, which she has held over her head, down and to the right.
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Jun 17, 2017 00:02
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BrianWilly posted:And that sniper...was Jesus Christ Fisher of Men. 
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Jun 19, 2017 10:02
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Glagha posted:So having just seen this, am I alone in thinking that a lot of the final fight scene was baaaaad? Like, I thought it was pretty decent all the way through but the climax seemed like the weakest part of the movie. Nah, it's the worst part of this movie, and the worst part of most superhero movies. People have this idea that characters getting punched through buildings and so on and then getting back up makes them look powerful and invulnerable but really it just makes the attacks look weightless and meaningless.
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Jun 25, 2017 22:00
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Glagha posted:I mean I will say that I nearly laughed out loud at the kamehameha. Granted, but when powering up an energy attack is more amusing and novel than what you've got going on normally, you know you're in trouble.
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Jun 25, 2017 22:12
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profit dickwaving is the worst, most boring conversation even before you get into all the lovely opinions and hot takes it invites
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Jun 26, 2017 00:12
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well okay maybe not the single worst, at least it's not merchandise chat
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Jun 26, 2017 00:13
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Kawabata posted:I'm quoting this from last page to remind everyone of how absolutely terrible the mustache was, and while the narration was also bad you could at least say that it was forgettable. The mustache stays with you much longer. It was the best decision in the movie, actually.
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Jul 29, 2017 18:51
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The third act is bad because it's yet another superhero movie that ends with a generic, weightless CGI punchmans fight, not because Ares takes on the aspect of the British Empire. It would in fact be even worse if he looked totally badass, instead of like the tweedy, "civilized" front of one of the most violent and aggressive nation-states the world has ever seen. Most critics and viewers are idiots.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:03
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Kawabata posted:I understand the sense of the British Empire thing but that is an incredibly out of the blue intellectualistic reason to justify the weirdest casting choice in a movie that's, huh, very straightforward to say the least. oh no, whatever will i do
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Jul 29, 2017 19:19
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Kawabata posted:not poo poo on your own arguments would be a start, but hey it's not the end of the world my friend My argument stands on its own, friend. Your inability or unwillingness to engage with it because you dislike something I said is your problem.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:27
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Kawabata posted:However you also think that most viewers and critics are stupid, does that mean that we should listen to Tuxedo Catfish' hot takes on SA instead? Because I feel there's no need to engage with that. Not at all. You should think for yourself first, and think about ideas you encounter second. I'm sure I'm not even the first person to suggest this reading.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:41
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Kawabata posted:So what's your basis for saying that most critics and viewers are stupid. You seem keen on backing up your opinions, please continue. Well, the frequency of complaints from both audiences and professional reviewers about things that are, in fact, good and thematically appropriate is a good place to start.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:53
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wyoming posted:I get what you're saying and all, but him forging his helmet out of scrap was fuckin' metal. I was bothered at first by the idea that the God of War could be defeated by fighting him to the death, but folks here talking about how it's more like Diana replacing him than defeating what he stands for kind of makes it fit. Ares made a war of completely senseless chaos; Diana defeats him as part of her own personal narrative of righteousness vs. evil, and she's half-right -- Ares is a monster -- but it's not the solution to the reality of violence. The next century is going to be full of wars that can be described as a battle against evil, some of them even truthfully, and they're still going to be horrific. Kawabata posted:Who has a say on what's thematically appropriate then, if not the majority of the public (uninformed, occasional moviegoers) and/or the majority of critics (experienced moviegoers whose job is to write reviews)? Who do you think movies are for? Nobody has a uniquely authoritative say, that's not how movies or any other kind of media work. I just don't have very much respect for anyone who gets as far as "huh, they made a weird choice here" or "this made me laugh when I thought they were being serious" and stops there. For audiences I get it -- I was being kind of rude when I said "idiots," it's more that there's not very much reason for it to matter to someone who just wants to be entertained -- but as a critic it's your job.
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Jul 29, 2017 20:28
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Schwarzwald posted:This is not a story about a successful sociopolitical radical. This is a story about a god, faced with the problem of evil, deciding upon (and enforcing) divine nonintervention. This is a good post, and these two parts especially. It also puts a pretty clear pin on what I disliked most about it; I have no patience for theodicy. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 20:12
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Mr. Apollo posted:That's true, golems can't speak and are only capable of basic tasks. In D&D maybe. The Jewish folktale often features the golem begging his master to let him live. (And he refuses even if it breaks his heart, because the golem is basically a spirit of bloody vengeance by that point.) e: edited to reflect there are a lot of different versions and I'm just going off the one I know Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Sep 7, 2017 |
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Sep 7, 2017 21:24
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