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I've just come from seeing the film, and while I'll eventually read through the thread, here are my immediate thoughts: Aesthetically, it was gorgeous, both visually and audibly. Especially visually and especially audibly. Themyscira is as much a paradise as William Marston could have envisioned, London is very much not, and later locations are even less so, and they're all beautiful. Gal Gadot and Chris Pine are both excellent in their roles, with Diana as optimistic as she is mighty, and Steve both in awe of her ability and wary of her naivety. General Bad Guy and Doctor Poison are both giddy in their ludicrous villainy. The film is very smart about handling Diana's ignorance. She tries to interpret the war as aberration in a world that would otherwise be good, and her struggle is largely with understanding that things are far more complicated and far less clean than she wants to believe. Yet, her efforts are framed as noble and good despite being flawed. One thing I had heard before seeing the film was that the third act was kind of weak, but I quite heavily disagree. The confrontation between Wonder Woman and Ares was a fitting thematic conclusion on several levels, not the least visually. Ares becomes increasingly weaponized throughout the fight, drawing on the available war machines to form his armor and weapons, and this concludes with him turning himself into a bullet and firing himself at Wonder Woman--who deflects him with her bracers even as she rejects his philosophy. On the whole, I was drat satisfied.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:57
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Charlz Guybon posted:Aren't the Amazons immortal, or at the very least live thousands of years (some of them look like they're in the 40s/50s)? Why would they care about time? Consider how old Diana must be. She's the youngest of the Amazons, to the point where she's the only child in an island of adults. The answer, as much as there is an answer, is that Themyscira is a magical island. Zeus did it.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:01
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BrianWilly posted:Speaking of which, the timeline of Themyscira gets a little wonky I think. If Zeus made Diana as he died, does that mean that Zeus and the other gods defeated Ares then died, like, in the early 20th Century? 'Cuz that's about when Diana would've been born/made/whatever. Or does that mean Diana is a two-thousand year-old womanchild? There's also Hippolyta telling Antiope that Ares might never return and the threat is totally over forever when they would've fought him, like, about a decade ago 'cuz Diana's a twelve year-old at that point. It's magic. Zeus did it.
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Jun 5, 2017 03:07
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Speaking of Zeus, who caught the bull observing Diana break into the armory?
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Jun 6, 2017 01:01
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Did you miss the big twist at the end where Ares was very specifically not behind it all?
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Jun 7, 2017 00:47
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Judakel posted:Did you ignore the ending? Yes. While Wonder Woman was busy killing Ares, Steve and buddies stopped the chemical attack that threatened to prevent the armistice.
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Jun 10, 2017 23:56
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BobKnob posted:I don't really care personally, but people are acting like DC's poo poo all of a sudden doesn't stink and that they are a shining light of feminism. Has anyone in this thread actually claimed that?
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Jun 14, 2017 00:26
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Doflamingo posted:So did WW kill Dr. Poison at the end there with the tank? It seems like she did but it was weird since you'd expect her to do the opposite of Ares' taunts. Anyway solid film if a bit long, definitely the best DC production by far at this point. Looking forward to seeing more of Gal kicking rear end in JL. She does not. WW allows Dr. Poison to flee. You're the second person I've read be confused, which kind of surprises me. I thought it was pretty clear.
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Jun 16, 2017 23:58
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Equeen posted:I liked the movie, but a podcast review pointed out something interesting: with the exception of Hestia, there were no mention Greek goddesses. In hindsight, you would think Athena, the goddess of wisdom and war strategy, the literal opposite of Ares in terms of temperament and morality, would have gotten her name dropped at least once... Here's what I took from that: the Gods, with the exception of Ares and Diana, were sexless. Zeus created Man, which is why Zeus's child Ares could then be male. Zeus later created the Amazons, which is why Zeus's child Diana could be female.
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Jun 18, 2017 19:10
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ungulateman posted:There's not much Christian about Wonder Woman. There's a split second where she's in the sky with her arms apart, but it's much more a 'god gently descending from the heavens' pose than a crucifixion - which makes sense, since she's just obliterated Ares with divine might. I think I should bring up the scene where she body checks a steeple, toppling it.
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Jun 19, 2017 03:30
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Mr. Apollo posted:But snipers would often hide in church steeples and destroying the steeple or entire church was sometimes the only way to stop them. Diana is the God Killer.
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Jun 19, 2017 05:10
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McCloud posted:I did not consider the parallel there, good catch. It's pragmatic. People are already dying in war, the way Diana believes she can save them is buy killing Ares. The sooner she kills Ares, the sooner war stops, the less people overall die. If she has to kill people to get to Ares quickly? That saves more lives in the long run.
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Jun 20, 2017 02:48
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spacetoaster posted:Are there any comic book people like this? I mean, in comics there are a ton of people who are either immortal, or very long lived. I'd imagine it'd be pretty comical for a 90 year old guy to be trotting around town with a literal 30 year old looking goddess on his arm. I don't know about in the comics, but the Greek myth of Tithonus is fairly similar. He grew old, but his lover, the Goddess Eos, did not. Granted, the story is a little less charming than it might sound at first.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:08
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BrianWilly posted:I mean...I admit, I don't really know what people actually do when they discover priceless historical relics, but I'm like ~40% sure they don't shoot them with bullets and try to chop rocks with them. In 1965, a Chinese excavation uncovered a bronze sword from a tomb. Finding it remarkably untarnished, they decided use it to chop a stack of paper with it to see if it was still sharp. (It was.) http://mymodernmet.com/sword-of-goujian/
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Jun 22, 2017 16:11
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RCarr posted:I can go on, but man, how does stuff like this make it into the movie? They make it into the movie because they serve the narrative of the film.
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Jun 23, 2017 22:04
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Guy A. Person posted:I just realized Wonder Woman would be better if she forged her own armor, since you already have the Captain America (hero joining a World War) and Thor (fish out of water mythological god) angles, and if she made her own armor she would have the hat trick with Iron Man parallels. The movie does have a super hero* who forges his own armor! He's even a war profiteer like Tony. Wonder Woman kills him. *Hero in the classical sense, appropriately enough.
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Jun 26, 2017 19:29
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If we're talking about what's in the movie, then the Gods walk beside and among mortals.
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Jul 19, 2017 17:00
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Boris Galerkin posted:It would make 100% sense since they said Zeus and Ares were brothers earlier in the movie. You misheard, Ares was Zeus's son.
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Jul 23, 2017 16:50
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Also that loving mustache on Ares was impossible to take seriously. That's a feature.
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Jul 28, 2017 15:52
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Kawabata posted:While the movie is quirkier and more interesting than your average DC product (thanks god) I don't think it's quirky enough for that choice to be appropriate. I'm really curious why you feel this way, because I've found Wonder Woman to be the least quirky of the DC films. Moreover, I don't think anyone is arguing that Ares's depiction was good because it was quirky, but good because of how Ares taking the guise of a British politician ties into Diana's naivety about the nature of the conflict and how it acknowledges Britain's history of violent colonialism. The fact that it is quirky is merely a bonus.
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Jul 29, 2017 19:58
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Kawabata posted:I don't think Ares' depiction would've been a bad idea in a different Wonder Woman movie, but here Diana is literally a gorgeous greek demi-goddess with superpowers, daughter of Zeus and half-sister of Ares. On the other hand, Ares is a big mustache 60 years old british dude that looks like he never misses his 5 pm tea that symbolically represents the British Empire. I feel like it's a bit too out of place. It's not a bad idea per se, quite the opposite, and if he had looked younger/a bit less frail, of if we hadn't seen his massive mustache through the helm it still might've worked for me. It is entirely out of place with Diana's expectations, and that's the whole point. Diana's wrong about what war is.
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Jul 29, 2017 20:48
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:They really toned down Etta's character in the movie. In the old comics she was always beating the poo poo out of people: The original Etta Candy kicks so much rear end. She's about the closest any character gets to matching Wonder Woman, and it's entirely because of her untempered feminine hedonism. Her origin story is that after she had her appendix removed, she was told she could eat anything she wanted. She took that as a philosophy.
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Aug 13, 2017 21:05
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Hold on a minute here, there's "untroubled" and then there's completely unencumbered. Wonder Woman tilts too far towards the latter, her characterization being pegged at "innocent" until the series of reveals towards the end. She doesn't believe people have the natural capacity to be evil for most of the movie. That's a bit more than just being "pegged at innocent." Given that that's the story, I don't see what the problem is? Female action leads being macho or too troubled (or too untroubled) isn't a problem, and Jenkin's isn't arguing that it is. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Aug 25, 2017 |
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Aug 25, 2017 06:02
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:The story is inextricable from character. Yes, exactly. Given that the story is about Diana losing her innocence in regards to man's capacity to be evil to man, it is necessary for her to be innocent before then.
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Aug 25, 2017 06:08
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Tenzarin posted:Beatrix Kiddo, assassin, martial arts master, mother. It's worth stating that no one is upset at badass warrior women with troubled pasts or trauma. The Bride is a fine character, as are Sarah Connor and Furiosa. The objection is entirely the notion that this archetype is somehow the best or only permissible archetype, and that Wonder Woman is somehow a worse character for being innocent.
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Aug 26, 2017 17:09
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teagone posted:I mean, sure this is true, if you view the film through a pessimistic lens. Diana's character challenges you not to though. Diana's character is so crestfallen from her stint as Wonder Woman that she stops being her after the war.
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Aug 26, 2017 23:41
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teagone posted:Are you referring to the whole "I walked away from mankind" line in BvS not lining up with how the film ended? Because Patty divulged on that. I mean Diana stopped being Wonder Woman for a century between the two films, a fact Patty Jenkin's doesn't dispute.
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Aug 26, 2017 23:52
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It's pretty damning that your wrote six paragraphs about why Wonder Woman was a step forward and never once talked about the contents of the film.
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Aug 27, 2017 00:25
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teagone posted:Except the whole post sums up and generalizes the contents of the film in response to "why the film is a step forward." The first five paragraphs do not discuss the contents of the film at all except that the action lead was a woman, and if you believe that "sums up and generalizes the contents of the film," then we have gone from pretty damning to significantly damning. The final paragraph states that the film features women in the position of teachers, mentors, combatants and heroes, and that women are able to form meaningful relationships with each other. (Just like men!) To the effect that's a step forward, it means that blockbuster films have finally caught up with 60's era second-wave feminism.
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Aug 27, 2017 01:34
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BrianWilly posted:One could easily argue that the reason this female action superhero movie didn't flop was through the engagement of its hero or the appeal of her storyline, because it found a way to endear itself to men, women, and children in a way that those flops didn't. You're equating feminism with good marketing. Renoistic posted:I don't remember - is WW made from clay or a demi-goddess in the movie? She was told she was molded from clay, but that was a lie her mother told her to hide the fact that her father is missing. For what it's worth, in the original comic it's heavily implied that she was the product of Hercules rape of Hippolyta.
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Aug 27, 2017 15:54
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Lord_Magmar posted:I take issue with the idea that having a replacement for Jesus is a bad thing, because the purpose of the bible as an actual work is to teach people how to live a happy and wholesome life with other people. So long as you can teach people these messages it really doesn't matter the shape it takes form in, and using things children are interested in allows the message to resonate more fully with the audience who benefit most from these messages. What lessons does Wonder Woman teach?
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Aug 27, 2017 16:19
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Yaws posted:Oh god a loving tweet containing some anecdotes about the positive effects of Wonder Woman?!?! This travesty can't go unchallenged! It didn't happen! It doesn't matter! Those little girls don't know what they're talking about! I, the fat virginal nerd will show them the light! No one's talking about those tweets.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:54
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dont even fink about it posted:"After being brought up by closeted and disenchanted lesbians that leave her with child-like emotions and social skills, Wonder Woman becomes a successful sociopolitical radical in a story marketed to children" - mmm yeah that's the stuff Unfortunately, it also isn't what happens in the film.
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Aug 29, 2017 03:13
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If we're going to ask if Wonder Woman is a "step forward," we should ask who the character is. And to learn that, we have to see what choices she makes, and what her actions are.
Wonder Woman has a strong sense of personal responsibility, and equates being responsible with taking action to help people. Specifically, people without power. This is largely the drive behind her quest to kill Ares. She believes Ares has influenced mankind to commit evil actions (war, specifically), and that mankind is powerless to resist his corrupting influence. As an Amazon (which Zeus specifically crafted to resist Ares corruption), she feels a duty to kill Ares and liberate mankind.
For all that she is compassionate, Wonder Woman is entirely willing to take an almost surgical approach to freeing mankind. The sooner Ares dies, the less mankind suffers in total, so it is fully permissible for her to cut down any number of soldiers (and bar patrons) if it brings her closer to Ares. ...of course, that is only up until she actually engages Ares. Where, her faith having been shaken, she
This is a start of a change in her character. Ares has truthfully told her that he has not corrupted mankind, that killing him would not liberate mankind. She still believes being responsible means taking action, but her actions are no longer for the benefit of the helpless. At least, momentarily.
This is the conclusion of her change. Given that she cannot take action to free mankind, she decides the responsible thing is not to take action--to allow mankind to take responsibility for it's own actions. This is what killing Ares ultimately accomplishes--it removes the excuse of divine malevolence. This is not a story about a successful sociopolitical radical. This is a story about a god, faced with the problem of evil, deciding upon (and enforcing) divine nonintervention. The actually moral of the film (as embodied by the character of Steve Trevor) is that we should not depend on the gods for help (societal or otherwise), but rely on the actions of ourselves and our fellows. Something between Hercules and the Wagoner and "trust in God but tie your camel." I think Wonder Woman is a good film. I'm not so cynical to call it a step forward for feminism.
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Aug 29, 2017 05:55
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No one in this thread has argued that women do not like Wonder Woman.
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Aug 30, 2017 21:58
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It seems strange to dismiss the film's gods as "personifications of abstract concepts" and that Diana is therefore not a god, but then also accept that Diana's thoughts and struggles can manifest so tangibly that Steve can see Ares flying around.
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Aug 31, 2017 02:07
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For what it's worth, in Charles Moulton original comic confrontation between Wonder Woman and Ares, Ares was not a physical entity. He was intangible, and influenced the world by sending his agents to invisibly tempt the leaders of the Axis powers into bellicose action, in much the same way he's shown interacting with Dr. Poison in the film. To actually do battle with Ares, Wonder Woman drinks a potion that puts her in a trance, and her "astral body" sneaks aboard a phantom spaceship taking the ghosts of the war dead to Ares' iron fortress on the planet Mars. After destroying the iron fortress and Ares inside in, Wonder Woman explains that as a god, Ares cannot truly be killed. The best mankind can hope for is imprisoning Ares, through ending war on Earth. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 03:48
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Mr. Apollo posted:But Ares was still real in the sense that he was an actual entity of some kind. The early Wonder Woman comics primarily had Wonder Woman fight against human soldiers and agents of the Axis powers, and while they might be equipped with fantastic devices and powers (exotic poisons, electromagnetic submarines, trick doors and hidden rooms, elephant hypnosis, etc etc) the people behind them are mere mortals. Wonder Woman and her pals fight them bodily. The comic where Wonder Woman battles Ares is different. Wonder Woman does not fight him bodily. Her body is safely asleep on Etta Candy's couch. The reasoning for this is more clear when you consider that it was written during WW2 for an audience of children, many of whom had parents and siblings stationed overseas. They knew the fascists were real. But Ares is not real, or is real only in the sense that war is real. Wonder Woman battles Ares in a dream specifically to communicate this to it's readers. The comic ends with Wonder Woman waking up.
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Aug 31, 2017 05:55
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The story about Diana being crafted from clay was originally meant to contrast with the creation of Adam and Eve. Specifically, being forged from clay puts her on equal footing with Adam, who was "formed [...] from the dust of the ground." The actual original Wonder Woman comic makes no mention of this at all. Instead, we get the origin of the Amazons, where Hercules through "the wiles of men" takes Hippolyte and her people into slavery, only for the Amazons to later escape through prayer to Aphrodite. Diana is born to Hippolyte afterwards, having been blessed with the beauty of Aphrodite, the wisdom of Athena, the speed of Mercury... and the strength of Hercules.
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Sep 3, 2017 02:13
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Inescapable Duck posted:Which comic? WW's had a fair few contradictory origin stories, I thought being sculpted from clay was the original one, I heard being strongly implied to be a child by rape from Hercules was more recent. All-Star Comics #8, Dec 1941. As best as I can tell, the "being sculpted from clay" origin comes from a 1985 story. edit: yes, I did mean 1941, not 31 Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 3, 2017 16:46
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