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Well when I'm wrong I admit I'm wrong. Josh clearly had a better read on things than I did so my bad on criticizing that move all week.
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Sep 21, 2017 12:36
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Same, and props to the ol' meatball
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Sep 21, 2017 12:57
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Also I kind of now want to bump Vanessa above Paul on my ranking/tier list because for whatever mistakes she made she didn't gently caress up the jury management two seasons in a row and probably would have won the first time if she had made it. Also I guess Josh has to get bumped to the Steve/Ian/Andy "I'm not that impressed but you won so props" tier. And I forgot to put Nicole there because I have tried to forget BB18.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:08
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I was hoping for Paul but he knew he was cooked once Julie played Josh's goodbye messages. He lost to astonishingly bad jury management and doubled down on it on the live show.
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Sep 21, 2017 15:34
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Faustian Bargain posted:I was hoping for Paul but he knew he was cooked once Julie played Josh's goodbye messages. He lost to astonishingly bad jury management and doubled down on it on the live show. Hahah I haven't watched the finale yet but this is exactly what I was talking about... I loving love that they played his messages!
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Sep 21, 2017 15:54
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STAC Goat posted:Also I kind of now want to bump Vanessa above Paul on my ranking/tier list because for whatever mistakes she made she didn't gently caress up the jury management two seasons in a row and probably would have won the first time if she had made it. I feel like Steve and Ian don't deserve to be on the same tier as Nicole. She spent a large portion of the season in bed whining. Literally whining. Andy is the same Andy that was in everyone's conversations right? Because even he played a way more proactive game than Nicole. Nicole won out of pure spite for Paul. Josh definitely doesn't deserve to be on her tier as well.
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Sep 21, 2017 17:08
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Yeah, Andy was VERY proactive. He was always bouncing from room to room.
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Sep 21, 2017 17:17
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I made the argument at the time and still do that Nicole played a better game than it appeared. She totally did spend a ton of the game in bed doing nothing with Corey. But before she did that she actually did a good job establishing alliances and relationships that helped carry her through that sleeping period and then after Paulie's game blew up she actually did a fair amount of scrambling, cutting deals, repairing relationships, and winning comps. She didn't get carried to the end, she actually won a few key things, made a few deals, and repaired her relationship with Natalie a little which might have helped get that vote. Paulie, Corey, Zakiyah, and Day weren't "spite" votes. They were Nicole's friends and allies. Nat might have been a spite vote but Nicole actually did a lot of work to make things good with Nat the last month when Natalie REALLY disliked Nicole before that. Its a mediocre win but I don't think it was undeserved or passive. I think it compares pretty favorably to Steve, Ian, and Josh and the main difference is they all kind of had their "bad/floater" game early on and then better end games. Nicole's floater game came in the middle so it stands out more. And then people were largely tuned out at the end. That and Paul took Nicole to F2 while if I remember right those other three all won the last HOH. Andy probably did more work through the game then all of them, although its debatable how much of that benefited him or worked out. He was pretty largely responsible for keeping Helen and Co from striking at Amanda but I'm not sure that really affected his game one way or another. And the Exterminators kind of just fell in his lap. I don't know. I admit I don't give Andy a full fair shake. I think I have a hard time showing any respect for Andy because of how he melted down when Elise put him on the block. I've yet to see any HG react like that since. It left a mark.
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Sep 21, 2017 17:31
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Andy is the only winner since I started watching I can't like. He always feels like the one winner that production might have picked because he wasn't a huge racist. Ian gets a lot of bitter jury stuff but he played hard and could have been an easy Early out.
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Sep 21, 2017 19:25
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Ravens interview with Rob C was incredible. It starts around 1:11 of the podcast version. http://robhasawebsite.com/big-brother-19-finale-backyard-interviews-sept-20/ SalTheBard fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 20:09
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I don't know. There's a real "punch down" aspect to picking on Raven. Rob: What was your favorite flavor of Kool Aid Paul served? Raven: Cherry? That's just sad. Paul seems utterly deluded. He just kept up the "I did everything I could for everyone and I don't know what they expect besides me throwing my game again." Rob's not a terribly good/direct interviewer so he never asked anything as plainly as "Why did you lie about not having a hand in Jason's eviction when you had to know he'd find out the truth in the jury?" But Paul went on a rant about how Josh was "cowardly" for outing that in his goodbye speeches so he seems loving insane and entirely full of poo poo. But I hope some interviewer asks the point blank questions like the Jason thing or why Josh telling the truth about Paul's game was somehow less honorable than Paul throwing Josh and Christmas under the bus in his by saying he had nothing to do with it. I'd love to see/hear what's going on in Paul's mind about that. Rob asked Christmas about the "heart breaking" HOH thing. That was awkward. Julie pointed out how Paul was making nasty "rude" faces when Josh was talking and "being a brat" and that could have influenced the Jury. She as kind of defending Paul and doing the production thing but even she had to admit Paul was being a douche. Kevin seems a little deluded to and is keeping up his "I only lied about the money" thing. This house really bought into their own poo poo. And hilariously he reveals that he brought so many nice clothes because he didn't know you get locked away all summer and thought he could go out. Jody did their interview together. Jess is gonna ride this "Jody" thing hard. You can see it. Even Cody is confused how he's AFP. "I guess a victim won the $500K this year." Classy dude to the end. Jody naturally think they would have run the house if they could have got Paul out Week 1. Rob: I don't even understand how you got on this show. Cody: Me neither. Hilariously Jess snapped at Rob when he asked why Cody didn't play more of a social game and she said only people who never watched feeds asked questions like that and they actually get along with people great. Stupid head Rob. Alex claims that the Jury Roundtable were all about "we wanted Alex or Jason to win" which is why Dr. Will was so salty at them. Alex claims that if Paul had come clean on his poo poo and addressed her and Jason directly he could have turned their votes. Who knows? Alex: I'm going to stay off Reddit because I'm scared. Smartest thing Alex has said all season. I have no basis for this and its just a vibe I get... but I kind of feel like Raven went to a show for Paul's band and groupied him. It would explain a lot. Jason kinds agrees he was on the fence and if Paul had directly come clean to him and apologized for lying in the goodbye message he might have got his vote. He also sends the conflicting message that Paul's time to come clean was with the goodbye message. Its Jason. That's what he does. Marlena do their interview together too. Mark confirms he snapped on Matt multiple times in the Jury House. How does Matt get under your skin? Then he snaps about Matt repeatedly during this interview and Rob just cracks up about it. Elena is non-comital on if Paul could have gotten her vote if he hadn't lied to the Jury. For as much as we give Maven poo poo about being deluded Marlena also contend they'd change none of their decisions and they were right to both turn on Jody and then go back to them and Elena did the right thing. Rob does some bizarre thing where he heavily implies that Christmas was jealous of Elena flirting with Paul and Elena really rides in. Its weird when Rob gets in on the insane HG delusions. Elena: All I know is Christmas finished 3rd and I got more money. Mark: Me too! Rob: What's the plans for you two? Elena: We're going to spend some time in LA together. Rob: So are Matt and Raven! Elena: We have no plans with them and don't put any in their heads! Mark: But if we see them out... we'll go somewhere else. Matt gets an interview which makes me sad because for a minute I thought they'd skip and that would have been perfect. Matt solves the mystery of his shirts and says he had a lot of black ones that production took away. Matt recognizes that Raven's deluded about her game but he said it in a nice way. Rob trolls Matt asking him if Raven is a hypochondriac and Matt basically answers "yeah, maybe." Ramses is gonna play some game called "Sequester." Apparently its an "ORG" produced by Audrey and is in its 11th season. Ramses always makes me feel so old and lost. But at least I'm reminded of his name. Dom feels vindicated by Paul losing for some reason and "the turnout." Rob asks if Dom sewed the seeds for his downfall and Dom eats it up and goes all in on her saving the season. Dom thinks that whole snake thing would have worked out better if she could have called a house meeting on her own terms. Dom: He's over reacting right now. That's a clear indicator that you're guilty. Uhh... Dom... Jillian thinks she should have showmanced with Josh and that would have turned her game around. She wants to be on a new show like "MTV." She raps. We missed a lot with Jillian. Cameron says the Temptation Competition was the only twist this season worth a drat and returning since it adds a strategy aspect. Which makes me question if he was a sincere loss. He also calls Paul "staphylococcus epidermidis". I really think we might have missed something here. #Cameron4BB20 I just felt like doing that one last time. Seeya next year. I'm not doing any Celebrity nonsense.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:26
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I got the same vibe about Raven with Paul, but I kind of didn't want to make that implication with no evidence during the season. We may never know, but I will always have my suspicion.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:43
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Yeah, it was just a weird comment she made when Rob asked if Paul remembered her from the show and she was like "Yeah, he remembered me." Its Raven so she might just think she's unforgettable. But it would actually pretty sensibly explain her super loyalty to him, her assumption he'd be super loyal to her, and some of their weirdly intimate interactions early on. But yeah, obviously there's no evidence. Not that I actually think there's anything wrong with it either. Raven's hot, I'm told Paul's hot if you're into beards. Isn't that why you join rock bands and go to shows in bars?
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Sep 21, 2017 23:57
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Just want to say thanks to STAC Goat for all the recaps and news.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:27
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You know you are watching the Celebrity edition Stac
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Sep 22, 2017 00:30
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Literally the only thing that could break my "BB is a summer only thing" rule is that I really liked the Ballsmashers and kind of regret not seeing them in action for OTT. But I have zero interest in paparazzi/star fucker/People/TMZ poo poo so Celebrity BB has almost no draw to me. Unless some of my crazy Charlie Rose/Drew Carey/Deion nonsense comes true and I just can't resist seeing it for myself. I reserve the right to come back if Charlie Rose fights with Prime Time.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:37
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Jillian's interview... Everyone loving hated Josh that first week, if she'd showmanced with him they wouldn't have clicked in with the other couples, it would've been just another reason to send her out the door. Also she's saying she would've showmanced Josh despite not being interested in order to further her game?? I'm a little surprised Rob trolled Raven about her health issues. Even though we know she's pretty delusional, that's a touchy subject. Her giving a straight answer to the Kool Aid question was hilarious though. STAC Goat posted:Ramses is gonna play some game called "Sequester." Apparently its an "ORG" produced by Audrey and is in its 11th season. Ramses always makes me feel so old and lost. But at least I'm reminded of his name.
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Sep 22, 2017 01:24
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Just checking in to give a shoutout to the GOAT, STAC Goat. While I don't actively participate, I'm reading every post and have been for four (?) seasons now. 
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Sep 22, 2017 03:05
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Someone should have asked her more about her High School GPA being Dance.
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Sep 22, 2017 15:28
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Honestly the only way Paul could have won was by not playing the season at all. He played the game he had to play since everyone knew who he was, and the bitterness when he was revealed as Final 2 was so palpable you could feel it through the TV.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:00
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Nah. He played a great technical game but was an unnecessarily smug, condescending prick about it. His smugness, not his backstabbing, cost him the 500k.^burtle posted:Honestly the only way Paul could have won was by not playing the season at all. He played the game he had to play since everyone knew who he was, and the bitterness when he was revealed as Final 2 was so palpable you could feel it through the TV.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:04
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MrBuddyLee posted:Nah. He played a great technical game but was an unnecessarily smug, condescending prick about it. His smugness, not his backstabbing, cost him the 500k. That and if he would have just come clean in his goodbye messages I think he would have earned a lot of goodwill. How the hell does a vet getting to final 2 again have THAT bad of jury management? poo poo.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:10
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Paul absolutely could have won and we should not buy into his bullshit revisionist history/victim complex nonsense that he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Paul made obvious, glaring mistakes and overplays that we called out all season and can trace directly to his lost votes. He unnecessarily lied to Jason in his goodbye message and tried to blame his blindside solely on Christmas and Josh. There's no way that lie would hold and there's every reason to take Jason at his word that it was the big dealbreaker with him and that he would have taken things much better if Paul had just said "sorry I lied, but I had to take you out." He again unnecessarily lied to Alex after her fate was sealed and tried to blame Christmas and Josh in a way that didn't even make a lot of sense. Alex saw right through it and was angry that he was manipulating her, which just further compounded the betrayals of her and Jason. We all argued that he shouldn't blindside Elena with the Ramses/Josh vote and he horribly hosed up any damage control by condescending Elena and telling her to trust him and shut up without letting her in on any game. All that did was push Elena away from him and towards Jody who then turned her hard against him. And he spent the last few weeks of Mark's game just picking unnecessary fights with him for purely personal reasons. Compound on that that it was inevitable that Mark was going to eventually find out that Paul was instigating all of Josh's behavior towards him and just lying to Mark about it. Hell, I could even argue that he unnecessarily blew up any chance he had to get Cody's vote by trying to break up Jody. Its debatable if Cody ever would have voted for Paul but his opinions of Paul seemed to range wildly between hate and begrudging respect for awhile there. He repeatedly said he didn't really have anything personal against Paul and Paul was actually the only person who hadn't wronged him, but the mob scene and him telling Jess that Cody wanted Alex to take her out both made it really personal for Cody in a dirty/bloody way. Paul is an overplayer and an egomaniac, and that's what it comes down too. He never thoughts about Jury Management and he always seemed more concerned with his own ego of controlling everything and his seeming belief that he could spin any lie. That caught up to him and there was no shortage of people calling that as a real possibility all season. Hell, I'd argue there was a real chance he should have lost Kevin, Matt, and Raven's votes if they had any game sense or self reflection. And Christmas probably could have gone either way and maybe would have if Paul had been the one to evict her. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:23
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A lot of the stuff in Paul's game, like poo poo talking one pair while hanging with another pair, that was actually a strategic part of his game to get them targeting each other, so some of the stuff the jury was bitching about wasn't really just superfluous rear end in a top hat behavior but actually was part of his game. However! There's no way to know for sure, but he could have said in his goodbye message to Jason something like: "I'm sorry, I made alliances with all the couples and eventually had hard decisions to make, and you were just too good at comps" He could still act blindsided inside the house, but then he could've given it to Alex straight when he didn't use the veto on her... maybe those two changes would have gone a long way? Once you're sending someone into the jury you really can't keep the charade going so there was no reason to try to do that. And Alex seemed to be taking Paul abandoning her hard but not too hard to vote for him while she was in the house, and Jason and Alex both claim they almost could've voted for Paul. Really, if they come to the jury not too broken up about it, it might go a long way toward everyone's perception of Paul.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:24
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Exactly, there's absolutely no excuse for his continuous BS in their goodbyes messages. The fact he also continued with the false narratives in the back 30 minutes after the votes were submitted just shows how much self-awareness he lacks.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:31
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STAC Goat posted:He never thoughts about Jury Management and he always seemed more concerned with his own ego of controlling everything and his seeming belief that he could spin any lie. That caught up to him and there was no shortage of people calling that as a real possibility all season. Hell, I'd argue there was a real chance he should have lost Kevin, Matt, and Raven's votes if they had any game sense or self reflection. And Christmas probably could have gone either way and maybe would have if Paul had been the one to evict her. 
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Sep 22, 2017 17:35
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Fast Luck posted:Generally agree but he obviously did think, hard, about jury management. He just had no loving idea how to go about it and was actively bad at it. To him, things like saying "Christmas must have gone rogue" was jury management I'd argue that he thought about the Jury but he never actually "managed" them. I suppose that's a philosophical disagreement. My idea of "jury management" is to make the jurors understand your motivations and at peace with your actions. Paul's idea of "management" may well have been to deceive them the whole way and make them so fiercely loyal to him that they'd never question anything or expose his game. That did sorta work for Kevin and Raven (Matt seemed more sensible, he just didn't really care). I suppose it explains his bizarre criticisms of Josh "playing dirty" by telling the truth about their alliance and gameplay. Edit: Also I have a theory. I think that Raven tanked Paul's game. Something like Mark finding out that Paul was manipulating Josh to attack him didn't come from Josh. It had to come from someone in the Jury. Maybe that was a just a group airing of notes thing and it could have come from Jason and Alex. But I kind of got the vibe that in Raven's attempts to prove what a big player she was and how her and Paul had puppetmastered the season she inadvertently exposed a lot of Paul's poo poo. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:43
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Literally all Paul had to do was not be condescending to people on their way out and own what he did to the final jury. Two very simple things that had no bearing whatsoever on his ability to last in the game. And he refused to do them. He has nobody to blame but himself.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:06
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I think Paul thought management = manipulation. He thought he could manipulate the jury because he honestly believed he was a puppet master. He bought his own hype, like I suspected. Paul could have easily won if he showed an ounce of humanity to Jason and Alex when he bounced them out of the house.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:07
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Paul basically learned the wrong lesson from BB18. He thinks he lost because he dicked over Natalie, so in response he did everything in his power to hide his moves and dickish behavior this time around and manipulate others into doing the dicking. But Paul's such an egomaniac that he thought he could manipulate and screw everyone and they'd never find out the details of it. In the end he made the same mistake he made last season but instead of being a dick to Natalie's face he hosed over a ton of people behind their backs and then lied to them about it. Which honestly, is worse in a lot of ways and a bunch of the jurors including Mark, Cody, and Alex basically used the "at least Josh was upfront about it" reasoning.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:15
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Paul plays like the jurors are all sequestered individually to the point that I wonder if he really thinks they are.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:19
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I mean, there's probably something to the fact that he's never been in the jury and doesn't actually get that they all spend weeks there commiserating, bitching, and comparing notes. But most BB HGs have no first hand experience with a jury and as a veteran who lost a Jury vote he has no excuse at all to be that ignorant and clueless when all he had to do was ask some of his former HGs questions or just watch some episodes. It doesn't take a rocket science or personal experience to get the concept of jury management. It just takes good interpersonal skills and an understanding of human nature.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:25
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sportsgenius86 posted:Paul plays like the jurors are all sequestered individually to the point that I wonder if he really thinks they are. Rob and Taran talked about how never being on the Jury might hurt him since he doesn't know what the Jury House is actually like.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:33
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You guys make great points and I trust your analysis more than mine. Given how deep Alex and Jason went though, I guess I have trouble seeing a scenario in which they would have actually voted Paul. In their minds, they were either going to final two together, or one of them would be sitting with him and they'd vote for the other. The fact that neither of them made it just made it seem like no amount of truth telling or soothing was going to turn it around for them. Goat, I do want to say thanks for all the work you put in this summer, it definitely helped kill plenty of my days in the office and the GIFs were excellent.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:43
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Thanks to all who give me thanks. Its my pleasure to bring you folks pleasure. Jason claims he was 50/50 going into the finale and would have been more willing if Paul had at any point just come clean and apologized, or if he hadn't lied in the goodbye message at all. And Alex said she was still leaning towards Paul when she entered the Jury House, turned against him when she learned how much she had been manipulated, and still was willing if Paul addressed her directly on Finale night. We can obviously doubt that and who knows if its true but it all makes sense and there's no evidence to counter it. And Paul never let it play out the way it should have to see. If we had to sum up Paul's loss to one moment that would have been it. Every interviewer who sits with him should ask that one question. "Why did you lie to Jason in your goodbye message? Did you really not think that someone would tell him the truth that you were in on his blindside?" We were all shocked and confused by that when it happened and Jason was directly referencing it on Finale Night as he cast a vote for Paul to lose.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:00
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Like Alex said, she'd rather vote for the person that stabbed her in the front rather than the back. I think they absolutely would have voted for Paul if he had just been upfront about it. And yeah, I remember us all posting "why the gently caress did he just lie to Jason in his goodbye message" right after his and Josh's messages were played back to back. We all knew that would be a problem and sure enough, it's the thing that did him in. Max fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 19:06
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The sickness is real. I spent Wednesday night watching the Big Brother finale in the labor and delivery room while my wife was in labor. I whispered to my delirious wife "babe, Josh, that big meatball, won Big Brother" and she opens her eyes and looks at me and says "What?! He's so annoying!" To which I said "yeah but he beat Paul" and she goes "oh, ok, good". My little meatball arrived about 12 hours later.
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Sep 23, 2017 18:32
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Mahoning posted:The sickness is real. I spent Wednesday night watching the Big Brother finale in the labor and delivery room while my wife was in labor. I whispered to my delirious wife "babe, Josh, that big meatball, won Big Brother" and she opens her eyes and looks at me and says "What?! He's so annoying!" To which I said "yeah but he beat Paul" and she goes "oh, ok, good". My wife would want the same details
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Sep 23, 2017 19:55
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https://twitter.com/EW/status/913105129804636171 Those jerks
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Sep 27, 2017 19:27
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| # ? May 5, 2024 14:46 |
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Of course they are. Here's to hoping they spend a lot of legs in the middle east so we can watch Cody try to navigate around brown people.
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Sep 27, 2017 19:37
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