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White being the good guys in chess (Antonius Block played white), we should avoid any trickery and go with the most standard, boring and effective chess possible, leave the twirling of moustaches and daring gambits to the other team. I suggest e4. Also I suggest posting as much as possible in order to make it look like we have good ideas and deep discussions just by sheer number of posts.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:15
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 09:22 |
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I like the way this thread thinks. Declare checkmate in 20 moves.
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Jul 11, 2017 10:39
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blizzardvizard posted:So bearing in mind I'm pretty much completely new at chess, my first thought is Knight to b-3 to contest the black pawn, and I guess also threaten the center area. Is that a good idea? I'm not sure I'm happy with giving them the chance to trade pawns. If they do take our pawn and we take it back with our knight we're not developing any pieces in our move (moving a piece twice is mostly a waste so early), and if we leave the black pawn in e4 that's going to cramp further developments on the King's side, because it will be threatening both d3 and f3. If we go and murder their pawn (exd5) we: - Lose tempo but gain material - Control the centre of the board and threaten c6 (a natural place to move their Knight, they are way less useful next to the border) and e6 (same with the bishop) - Show them who's boss and - Bait their Queen (i.e. a big, fat, juicy target) to come down and take the pawn back. If they choose to play Qxd5 we counter with your move (Kb3), and that means time lost for them moving the Queen around. They are goons, of course they are going to take the bait. exd5
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Jul 11, 2017 18:09
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jon joe posted:Also, obviously I haven't read the Black thread as that would be haram, but black thread has way more posts than us. I find it unlikely that they are actually having super deep discussions, and even more unlikely that Fat Samurai's plan of posting a lot to show discussion is also being used by them, so I can only assume they are having a hecka cool and fun party or just can't get along at all. I hope it's the latter, but if it's the former, will the power of friendship manage to defeat our standardized openings?! If Goon vs Goon threads have taught me anything is this: blame Herp. For everything. Faerie Fortune posted:A thought occurs to me, if this is such a standard opening then surely someone on their team knows how to counter it, right? Why not do something completely off the wall and unexpected to throw them off a whole bunch and get them confused about what our strategy might be, then take advantage while they scramble to figure out what the hell we're doing? Standard is standard for a reason. It works, and the other way probably doesn't. Most of the moves that aren't outright horrible have a somewhat clear "best" answer, so unless we do an outright dumb move (say, advance the a pawn one square each turn for the first 5 turns), they can check a wiki or whatever and find an appropriate countermove. There will be time to be wacky and daring, but the second move probably isn't it.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:33
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No worries, and I understand it can feel constraining to replay a set of moves someone thought about a long time ago, but for now is probably for the best. We'll have time to be dumb together in 3-4 moves when we run out of script.  And even before that, because there are other viable alternatives (for example blizzardvizard's suggestion if it gets enough traction) and then it's a matter of preference and convincing the other goons.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:57
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Regarding Bb5 for check: Them advancing the pawn their c pawn means we have to run away having accomplished nothing (probalby to d3, where it's going to hamper the development of our other Bishop because we won't be able to advance our d pawn) AND having given them a free move with which to defend their pawn on d5.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:59
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Apparently I'm playing chess in Chess by Post now, so if anyone wants to trounce a newbie send an invite to fatsamurai. I've discovered that most chess players don't like to trash talk because they are boring and bad.
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Jul 12, 2017 09:00
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You're going down, Covski!
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Jul 12, 2017 10:06
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Added Space posted:Why not Bb5? That forces them to sacrifice a piece. They counter c6, which is covered by the Knight and by the b pawn. a) We take the pawn on c6 with ours: They take it back with their pawn on b column. b) We don't: We have to run back with our bishop. Whether we take their pawn with ours or not the end result is our Bishop facing a protected pawn, so we end up running away and wasting a move. EDIT: Also, I'm using Covski as a sparring in our game, and d4 (Advancing our pawn on d just behind the other one is a bitch of a move to deal with, so I'm voting for that. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Jul 12, 2017 |
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Jul 12, 2017 12:05
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sebzilla posted:Yeah I don't see the big deal about d4 myself either. Anyone more chess-headed care to elucidate? Think about the "controlled" squares on the board. Those two pawns in a row are annoying as gently caress, because they are closing development on most of the board by threatening 4 important squares: c5-c6-e5-e6. Now, if you take an opening, any opening, they are going to use those squares. They are kind of important and we're right in the middle of them. - The Knight on Queen side cannot move, because touching the side of the board is mostly a wasted move. Horsies want to be as close to the centre as possible. - Advancing the pawns mean trading, we keep the initiative and gently caress their pawn line a bit. They probably won't. - That means the Bishop on King's side is going to be there for a while. - The Bishop on Queen's side can only move to d7 or f5. Both a bit of a waste, they are not threatening anything important. That's going to keep on happening as long as or pawns are there. Now compare it with our situation, where the Bishops have 2 full lines to run through and the Knights can advance to their natural positions. Not defending our forward pawn means they will probably take it with either Knight or Queen. We can counter that with either c4 or Kc4, respectively, which they cannot take. That forces them to either move back (so lose a turn, meanwhile we keep control of the middle of the board) or charge forward unsupported, which is all kinds of bad idea, specially for the Queen. By our move on turn 4 they have 1 developed knight vs our 2 pieces, and maybe a Queen crying softly because it's all alone in a dangerous spot (probably a5, which is a dangerous spot 2 pawn moves away of being severely inconvenienced)
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Jul 12, 2017 18:09
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jon joe posted:Now something worth mentioning, mentioned by another video I watched, is the possibility of playing Bishop to b5 in this position, which puts the opponent in check. This was also mentioned in a post by Dr. Fetus: And of course they could just put their Knight in the way, again using our moves to little to no gain right now. jon joe posted:One thing to mention on this if they choose to capture with their queen after we play d4 is that an immediate Kc4 is not the ideal move; it's not a bad one, but we'd preferably like to support our pawn with Kf3, make a play with our kingside bishop to somewhere better, castle, and then finally c4 to attack the queen. The result is much stronger board position that, while delaying the tempo gain on the queen, does not by any means give it up even if Black responds perfectly. That assumes that the Queen is going to hang around for a while, though. I'd rather take the gains when we can, but I guess that's a bridge to cross when we get there. Gottagofast, damnit!
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Jul 12, 2017 18:17
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Added Space posted:If they advance their knight we capture it with our bishop. A bishop for a knight is a good trade. It also opens the lines for their rook, which usually are a pain to get out
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Jul 12, 2017 20:57
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Hey, observer thread, I hope you're taking notes and making summaries for our later amusement. If this doesn't end up reading as The Gossage-Vardebedian Papers, I'll be sorely disappointed.
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Jul 13, 2017 09:12
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Mad disrespect, I see. Bb5+
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Jul 13, 2017 18:50
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Ok, how can I post board positions without taking screenshots and then editing them? I think I'm onto something bad but funny.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:25
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Ok, while the best answer is probably something about the lines of moving something to e2 or pawn to f3 (probably this), the sheer balls of checking while our Queen is in jeopardy has made me to run a couple of scenarios, and... it doesn't seem such a bad move? Here is the board after 3.Bb5+:  Spoilered in case you want to think it out. Now, Black MUST put something between our Bishop and the King. That can be one of the following pieces: - Either Knight, probably the b column one, but if they move their developed one, it's a bonus: Fine. We go deal with the Black Bishop with whatever. Our Bishop is not in immediate danger, and whatever they do to threaten it we can do to theirs. It's a trade that loses us nothing. - The Bishop: loving wonderful. The threat to our Queen is gone, and we can trade. They take it back with either the Knight or the Queen. We have gained tempo, because they have used a turn to move a Knight or their Queen to d7, which is a pretty awful move, and the Bishops cancel each other out. We also have more open lines and they are killing their only open Bishop, and can move c4 to further control the center. - The c pawn: Now this is where things get interesting: we take their c6 pawn with our own. After that, here's the board:  At this point, the temptation is going to be strong to take our Queen. Which means we check their Queen and their King by advancing our pawn.  Again, something must move to d7: If it's one of the Knights, we take the Queen with our Pawn, promote it, get it killed and take their Bishop with our King. End result: we trade a Pawn for a Bishop. If they move their Queen to d7 it's checkmate when we promote (it's not going to happen). If they block our Bishop with their pawn, their only saving move is to check us with their Queen right after we take their Pawn with our own (diagram above). After we move our Knight to block the check, the board ends like this, our move:  Black must take our Pawn with their Knight, otherwise we take b2 with it (check) and they are forced to trade their Queen for our Bishop. We're still one Pawn ahead, the Queen is in a very inconvenient place and we can deal with the Bishop at our leisure. Again, it's probably not the best move because it assumes that Black will choose c6 before Kc6, but it's going to be a lot of fun if it works, and the alternatives aren't horrible either.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:53
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Covski posted:https://lichess.org/editor is a good choice. Is there a way to copy the image as a link? I was taking screenshots and then cropping them, which is a pain. Otherwise I'll go with jon joe's
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Jul 13, 2017 19:57
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Added Space posted:Be2 change to Nf3 A warning that this fucks up our castle position if they decide to take the Knight, leaving the King with nothing in front of it. It is a better place for the Knight if they don't, though.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:10
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Added Space posted:No, we just take the bishop with our queen. I'm dumb.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:13
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Oh, hey, posts! My apologies  ^^^^ bman in 2288 posted:But please note that they haven't been playing perfectly as of the second move. Should we plan for cookie-cutter moves, or should we plan for more aggressiveness from them? If they play aggressively (i.e. they block our Bishop with their Pawn, which can threaten it) they will lose their Bishop in exchange of a Pawn. Added Space posted:If we go Bb5+ they're only going to be in check for 1-2 turns, and the second they're out of check their bishop takes our queen. They have to use their move after our check to defend. If we cannot check them again or take the Queen after they move we can chase their Bishop away before they can take our Queen. The only scenario they take our Queen is because it's in our advantage to let them to do so (we end up trading giving up a Pawn in exchange or a Bishop) bman in 2288 posted:Oh god slow down, my brain can only handle so much information at one time. My post with the reasoning, step by step. Covering our asses first is a perfectly valid move, and if this wasn't a Let's Play I'd do it. Covering our asses first because we fear to lose the Queen is not, because it's not going to happen (because of this move, at least, we'll have plenty of chances to lose it later).
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Jul 13, 2017 20:42
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Added Space posted:How did Pratchett put it? A collection that makes one ponder the viability of razing the planet and starting again from bacterium? "REMIND ME AGAIN, he said, HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE."? jon joe posted:I'm sure I can still mine it for some valuable info, but it's not going to be as a cut-and-dry win and I had hoped. While I'd appreciate some help, please do not make us play following a script the entirety of the game.
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Jul 13, 2017 21:31
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Cloud Potato posted:Voting Bb5+. Yeah, but at that point they have completely screwed up their pawn line on the left, a single paw on the c column without pawns on b or d is a sad thing. We're still one pawn ahead and our board position is better. It's still improving our position.
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Jul 14, 2017 07:27
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oath2order posted:So, what's thr correct play if they go nd7? f3? I'm wondering between f3, Be2, Ke2 or Kf3, but yeah, absolutely stop playing with fire and go guard our Queen.
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Jul 14, 2017 17:34
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Yeah, Pawn D5 x C6. is the move here. Le me state this again: If they take the Queen, we end up, at the very least, a Bishop up, plus we mess up their lines a lot. Cloud Potato posted:I don't think they're going to take the bait. If we play dxc6 I feel they'll just play bxc6. My vote is for f3. While perfectly possible, bxc6 leaves their pawn on c completely isolated on both sides, that's enough of an advantage I'm willing to move our Bishop back to e2 and call it a victory:  Black to move. Notice how: - Their Queen's Knight is blocked and so is their King's Bishop. They need to move a pawn first (right into the crosshairs of our d pawn in some cases, if I might add) to develop either of them. - Trading their Bishop means they kill 1 of their two "open" pieces. - We can easily move both Knights and Bishops. We're way, way ahead of them in development.
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Jul 15, 2017 17:43
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blizzardvizard posted:By the way I'm just gonna try to voice out my thoughts even though I'm not 100% sure I understand everything completely, so hopefully that's not gonna bother the more knowledgeable people around here  I don't think anyone knows a lot about chess here, so please do so.
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Jul 15, 2017 18:50
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bman in 2288 posted:So long as they continue to not give our pawn any attention, using our Knight to protect our Queen at f3 seems like a solid strategy. If they don't take the Queen bait (someone in the other thread has to notice, right?) they will probably kill our c6 pawn with either their Knight or their pawn. If they take it with their pawn, I'd rather move back our bishop to e2, because their pawn structure is hosed up already and a pawn there is blocking their Knight development, but if they use their Knight to take our pawn, your suggestion is a drat fine move. Something like this, black to move:  First of all, I'd rather develop a Knight than a pawn, second , we prepare for castling if needed and third: if they want to trade (which they wont if we use our pawn), we can take the Bishop with our Queen and threaten both Knights. Also, we have two pieces pointing at c6, and both can check their King if they go there. That's scary. Absolutely nothing they can do in 1 move from that position can threaten us, except maybe their Queen going to a5, b6 or d5, which we can counter by developing our other Knight to protect the Bishop or advancing our pawn to c4 (which, by the way, is an awesome position to be in because we completely dominate the centre and may even get an extra turn by chasing the Queen away if they dare to move to d5). So yeah, I agree. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jul 16, 2017 |
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Jul 16, 2017 00:17
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sebzilla posted:Nf3 looks pretty good Agreed. Nf3. Dr. Fetus posted:And in case anyone happens to be worried about that one pawn we have out, their C6 Knight isn't allowed to take it. Attempting to do so means that would mean that their King would be placed into Check thanks to our Bishop, and you aren't allowed to deliberately move into check on your turn. *puts on sunglasses* the pin is mightier than the sword.
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Jul 16, 2017 13:08
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Cloud Potato posted:I wonder if Nc3 is worth consideration, also? Unless I'm missing something, Nc3 kills our Queen in exchange of a Bishop, it doesn't seem a good trade. Care to elaborate?
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Jul 16, 2017 13:35
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Gridlocked posted:What are their moves off Nf3 VS f3 then? Off 6.f3 they want to move their Bishop back, either to f5 (which is meh) edit: e6 (even meher) or d7 (which unpins their Knight). If they go d7 they have this position, our move:  This is dangerous because they have 2 pieces (Knight and Queen once the Bishop s out of the way) aiming at our pawn at d4, so if we don't defend it it goes like: their Knight takes our pawn, our Bishop takes theirs, Queen takes our Bishop and we cannot take their Knight, losing us a pawn. So before that happens we have to do Ke2, which is all kinds of a horrible place for a Knight to be in, or advance our c pawn to c3, and then both our Knights are blocked. Out of 6.Nf3 I can only see them either a) taking our Knight (so we take their Bishop with our Queen and threaten both of their Knights) or b) move their Queen to d5, b6 or a5 to free their queenside for a castle, to bring the Rook into play and threaten the d column again. We have two possible answers, either c4 or Kc3, both of them covering our Bishop and threatening the Queen if they go to d5. So they either end up with Queen on the a or b columns, and mostly blocked by other pieces or (hopefully) we force her to run away for a bit, giving us time to develop other pieces. Ideally, we end up with something like this, their move, and they have to run away with their Queen .  Notice how we're threatening 6 squares on the 5 line. Several of them with 2 different pieces. That's contrling more of our share of the board, and it limits their options a lot. And if they go to the a column with their Queen instead of d5 we end up with something like this, their move:  Not sure where they will go from here, but if they castle to bring the rook to bear we take their Knight, they take our Bishop and their King becomes very, very exposed. Compare to our eventual castling to the right side. They don't lose tempo, but that Queen is in a bad spot to do anything. Fat Samurai fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jul 16, 2017 |
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Jul 16, 2017 14:49
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You do get bragging rights if Nf3 ends up being a mistake, so that is a plus.
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Jul 17, 2017 08:35
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Gridlocked posted:Whelp RIP looking up example games. From the current position? We take their Knight, check, now their queen is defenseless. They will probably take our Bishop with their Pawn (because everything they put in the way gets eaten by our Bishop) and we take the Queen with our own.
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Jul 18, 2017 09:49
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Not much else to do. Bxf3 loses us our bishop and gxf3 fucks up our pawn line. Qxf3. Now their most probable attack path is to pile on our d4 pawn with their queen and rook after a castle. That makes Bxc6+ a nice move for us if we can gently caress up their pawn structure. Cloud Potato posted:My only worry after Qxf3 is their Qxd4. We take their knight with our bishop, check. They either put their other knight or their queen in the way (so good bye another piece and they have to take with their king, loving up their position) or take our bishop with their pawn. We take their pawn with our queen, forking their rook and king. Queen gets in the middle, we take their rook, another check. We are trading, at the very least, our bishop for a pawn and a rook, a good deal. Gridlocked posted:I'm leaning fx3 with the pawn on g2 honestly. That puts our king right on the frontline after a castle, thoguh. 
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Jul 18, 2017 12:58
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jon joe posted:That said, I think Black made a huge blunder here by capturing our Knight with their Bishop. I played out a couple games against myself, looking for ways Black could potentially go for a checkmate after we capture their bishop with our queen, but I couldn't find any that we couldn't negate in a single move, at a huge cost to Black. In fact, I'm not really sure how Black survives this with anything less than a ruined pawn structure due to our two pieces that will be eyeing c6. Moving Qb6 so they can use the queen to take our bishop after we take the knight. Otherwise castling queenside (and they want to castle that way to bring that rook into play and threaten our pawn in d4) is very, very dangerous. In fact, if they move their queen to b6 I'd suggest Kc3 to give them time to castle and then Bxc6 so they have to decide between stop threatening our pawn with their queen or ending up with two pawns completely alone.
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Jul 18, 2017 15:43
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I can't see much Black can do except moving their Queen to threaten our pawn, our bishop and defend their Knight. Qb6? And then castle to put their rook on d4?
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Jul 19, 2017 11:39
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jon joe posted:They could always move Rook to c8. They give up the queen side castle, but at least they don't need to babysit their knight with their queen. Nonsense. They are goons. Herding them into a defensive move is impossible. They are going to be fighting each other each step of the way. We, on the other hand, are a shining example of cooperative thinking, teamwork and the whole being more than the sum of the parts thing.
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Jul 19, 2017 17:47
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Ok, some random thoughts here: 1) They seem to be going for a castle. The only purpose of advancing the queen is to put their rook behind it for some ooomph on that row (which is usually a very strong position because if you place it on the same row as the enemy king is going to be very difficult to dislodge a piece from there, as the king cannot take it). They are certainly not going to send their queen to e6 (which is the only place on that diagonal where it doesn't die) and they could have moved it forward already if that was their plan. 2) We shouldn't worry about defending the pawn on d4 yet. That pawn is perfectly safe if they are clever and a nice trap if they are not. Once their queen stops protecting c6 (like say, taking our pawn) we can 1. Bxc6 bxc6 (because otherwise they have lost a knight in exchange of a pawn) 2.Qxc6 and then we're one pawn ahead again, but are forking their rook and king (if they haven't castled yet) or checking their king (if they have). We will always have time to c3 if they bring more pieces to bear on d4. 3) Sending the bishop to f4 is a good protection against their moving e5 and making us choose between giving up our pawn or clearing up the d column (which is a bad idea and could lead to a checkmate). Actually, it could also help if we end up checking a castle-ed king with our queen on e6. That's a checkmate right there. 4) The Black Knight is still pinned. If it takes d4 to threaten our queen and bishop we take the queen with our bishop, they take their bishop with whatever and we move our queen, so we end up ahead. We shouldn't count on Black taking d4, but it's nice to have it dangling in front of them. Considering this, I'm thinking either Bf4 (to make sure they have only just enough force threatening d4) or 0-0. We could be boring and safe and play c3 or Kd2 (I'd rather keep that pawn spot open), but this is an LP.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:17
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jon joe posted:good post I was writing you that, damnit. Also, you're giving them an extra move. It's our turn on that picture.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:24
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jon joe posted:If they e5 we only need to immediately capture with our pawn if we've already castled, threatening their knight. I'm worried about e5 after castling. If we take their pawn that's a queen and a rook with nothing between them and row 1, and that can be painful.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:27
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jon joe posted:which is defended by our queen.
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Jul 19, 2017 21:33
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 09:22 |
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jon joe posted:I have no clue what Bf4 actually does for us. It attacks nothing, not even an important square. It doesn't prevent castling because their king doesn't move through or to that space, and there's nothing important going on at that line at all. e5 by our opponents appears to be, to my eyes, just plain bad. jon joe posted:Capturing with their queen means we take their knight with our bishop and, when they retake with their pawn, we attack with our queen for check, starting a check dance to our advantage. It's a checkmate in this case and it gets the bishop out there, but yeah, basically bad reading of the board on my part. Leaning towards 0-0 now, considering c3
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Jul 19, 2017 21:45
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