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I did one of these two-ish years ago and it was fun for me and I think other people? And I met some neat goons. And we're now in a political climate that is very interesting. I am a Muslim. I wasn't raised one, I converted when I was 15. I'm now 34. I'm a very liberal one at that, as my post history indicates  I know there's a couple more around here with varying beliefs/cultures/etc, if they still post.ISLAM 101 (Stolen more or less from my last thread because the basics don't change) PILLARS In Islam there are five primary obligations that a believer has, the Five Pillars:
Prayer: Five times a day, or possibly three, depending on who you listen to. Three times are specifically mandated in the Qur'an. Or possibly five, if you put verses together rather than assume they refer to the same times of day. It's complicated and even more complicated when dealing with it in translation. Zakat: Charity. There's a fixed percentage (2.5%) of a person's net worth that is supposed to be used for the welfare of the community, though as with most things in Islam, there are exceptions and understanding for people who simply can't afford to. The effort is what counts. Sawm: Fasting during Ramadan, from sunup to sundown. Again, excused if your health or the like can't handle it, and there are specific groups that are excused that I can't remember now. Hajj: The pilgrimage to Mecca. So long is one as physically and financially able (this more or less applies to every "rule" in Islam, it's rather forgiving that way), they should make the pilgrimage once in their lives. Those are the five things set down specifically that basically all Muslims agree on. HADITH / SUNNAH Into that, though, are added the Hadith (things Muhammad is supposed to have said or done) and the Sunnah (practices that were established by Muhammad/his followers that have been passed down, I won't address these directly but they serve roughly the same purpose in Islam). The Qur'an is much less story-like than the Torah and the Bible; not in the sense of being truer or falser but in the sense that it isn't laid out like a history or a narrative. Rather, it's a series of verbal revelations received by Muhammad from Allah, via the angel Jibra'il over a period of twenty or so years. For a very long time it was remembered orally, it's generally believed by scholars that the Qur'an was never written down until after Muhammad's death, when his followers became concerned with the dwindling number of people left alive who had memorized the Qur'an in its entirety. Where the Qur'an is a recitation directly from Allah, the Hadith are more like parables, though even that isn't an entirely correct term. Essentially, they're quotes and actions that purport to be from Muhammad as heard by his wives, followers, children and others who were in his presence, and passed down throughout the history of Islam. Some of them are  , like the stories about Muezza, Muhammad's cat:quote:When the call to prayers was heard, Muezza was asleep on one of the sleeves of the Prophet’s robes. The Prophet wanted to wear the robe to go to prayers. Rather than disturb Muezza, Muhammad cut off the sleeve to leave Muezza in peace. He then stroked the cat seven times, which, it is said, granted Muezza seven lives and the ability to land on his feet at all times. Some are less so: quote:The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women." quote:Say, "If the sea were ink for writing the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement." Essentially, they believe that the Qur'an is the perfect word of Allah so why is everyone putting so much belief into hearsay. They are not, to my knowledge, the majority view. I don't know that I would call myself a Quranist because that word comes with some mildly insane views as well from the ones I've met in real life. But for the vast majority of the time, I share their views on the hadith and sunnah. ------- Trying to put too much will be exhaustive but I don't want to make this too scarce. A lot of the differences in various forms of Islam are cultural more than anything else, and I'll answer what I can about what I know. If anyone has questions about Islam, being a Muslim, being a liberal American Muslim, Islamic history or theology, ask away and I (or anyone else who wanders in) will try to answer. Have some books. The Qur'an (There are a lot of translations out there and if you're really interested in Islam (not even from a spiritual but just historical/modern history standpoint) I recommend reading multiple translations in whatever language you're comfortable with. The most well-known is probably Yusuf Ali's The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary. The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English as translated by Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley is the modern version I use most often.) Hadith As Scripture: Discussions On The Authority Of Prophetic Traditions In Islam by Aisha Y. Musa Shi'i Islam: An Introduction by Najam Haider (An overview of Shi'a Islam. I'm not sure of a corresponding book for Sunni) Essential Sufism edited by Robert Frager and James Fadiman Al-Ghazali's Path to Sufism: His Deliverance from Error by al-Ghazali The Marvels of the Heart: Science of the Spirit by al-Ghazali and Hamza Yusuf Love is the Wine: Talks of a Sufi Master in America by Muzaffer Ozak Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Annemarie Schimmel
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Aug 9, 2017 00:21
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This is cool. What's up with the thing where you can only depict plants in art/decoration and never people or animals?
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Aug 9, 2017 07:57
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That's actually a fairly recent development, historically speaking. At its core, it's based on the prohibitions in the Quran against idolatry, like so (Unless otherwise noted, all Quran quotations are taken from The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English, translated by Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley):quote:Surah 5, verse 90: quote:Surah 6, verse 14 In Sunni tradition, the prohibition of depicting living things started around 800 AD. Even then, what you believed would depend on the school of thought and culture. As a whole, Shi'a are much more relaxed about imagery, as are people who follow many schools of Sufi thought. This is true about many other things as well. Historically, the Umayyads had beautiful artwork that depicted humans and animals. Persians and Ottomans did as well. These are Persian and Ottoman depictions of Muhammad:   Obviously there was some variation in terms of detail, but the Ottoman representation is still clearly a human figure. Just one shrouded in light. However, as I said, as time passed the pendulum among the Sunni majority swung decisively to the side of imagery of anything with a soul being entirely haram, and past Muslim practices having been mistakes. Save for fairly broad verses from the Quran like those I posted above, this is pretty much entirely based on the hadith/sunnah, particularly Sahih al-Bukhari. quote:Narrated Aisha: I bought a cushion having on it pictures (of animals). When Allah's Apostle saw it, he stood at the door and did not enter. I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I repent to Allah and His Apostle. What sin have I committed?' Allah's Apostle said. "What is this cushion?" I said, "I have bought it for you so that you may sit on it and recline on it." Allah's Apostle said, "The makers of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and it will be said to them, 'Give life to what you have created.' " The Prophet added, "The Angels do not enter a house in which there are pictures (of animals)." In terms of representation in media (both fictional and non-fictional), the vast majority of Muslims one sees (at least in the US) are either "culturally Muslim" or Sunni. And that's not entirely surprising, since Sunni are the far larger majority and people raised as Muslims who don't really practice are safely exotic enough for midlevel America Sorry, that was sharper than it should have been. So anyhow, it's not surprising that many/most people think it's totally prohibited, because to the majority of practicing Muslims, it is.I'm not sure how much I should put of my own viewpoint, but as may be guessed, I don't agree with the majority on this one. I think tasteless depictions of Mohammad are tasteless in the same way I think Piss Christ was tasteless, but that's going to depend on your idea of art as well, etc.
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Aug 9, 2017 23:42
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I know they may not be considered Muslims, strictly speaking, but what's your take on B'hai? Do Muslims view them as nonbelievers, or more like how Catholics view Protestants?
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Aug 10, 2017 00:44
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I would say the vast majority on any sides would view them as not Muslim. To my knowledge, all practicing Muslim schools think that Muhammad was the last prophet. That's not saying they're good or bad, just that they're not Muslim in the same way a Catholic isn't.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:28
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What do Islam and being Muslim mean to you the most?
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Aug 10, 2017 02:52
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Caufman posted:What do Islam and being Muslim mean to you the most?
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Aug 11, 2017 01:09
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Another question springs to mind, given the thread title. What's the deal with djin? I mean, I know they aren't the fun loving genies we see in animated movies. Where do they come from, and what place do they hold in Islamic theology?
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Aug 11, 2017 02:01
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Tendai posted:I'm not ignoring this, just dead-rear end tired from work and this is a heavy question - I will answer tomorrow! No worries. I'm very interested in how each person must approach al Kalima, what the English call the Word, the Greeks call Logos, and the Chinese call Dao.
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Aug 11, 2017 02:38
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Djinns are one of those carryovers from pre-Islamic Muslim culture, realistically-speaking. They are mentioned in the Quran and one chapter is even named after them. It specifically says things that, like man, the jinn were created to worship. quote:Quran 51:56 Surah 72, al-Jinn, is basically the jinn talking about Allah and worshiping him alone. quote:Quran 72:1-2 Unrelated, but the start of the surah after al-Jinn is one of my favorites, especially in the way the Bewleys translated it. It works better in the poetic formatting like the original: quote:Quran 73:1-2 Anyhow. A Muslim's concept of jinn and whether they think about them at all really except when they read the Quran is going to depend greatly on where they live. Even Muslims on Reddit make jokes about them and they're a reactionary lot by my standards. Caufman posted:What do Islam and being Muslim mean to you the most? I am not a calm person and never have been. It is really, really hard for me to have a moment where my mind isn't going fast. Not about smart things or poo poo to brag about, just worries and anxiety and dumb thoughts about cats, but not ever being loving quiet. It shuts up when I want to concentrate but if I'm not focused hoo boy. So, calm has been something I've struggled to find since I was pretty young. I think my intense fear of death started when I was eight or so, for example. Over time I've learned to control the dumber ones. I've done therapy, drugs, illegal drugs, meditation, etc. The one thing that has ever brought me total, absolute moments of complete calm has been prayer. At times the prayers seem like more an obligation than anything but it's like exercise - once I'm doing it I go "hey, oh yeah, this is great!" And the second part of my answer? My life has not been easy. I struggle with saying that out of some weird sense of not wanting to seem like I'm bragging in the pity party? But I was born with dwarfism and have struggled with weight, anxiety, periods of hard drug use, and extremely poo poo life decisions based on low self-esteem. It hasn't been easy but for the most part I've been surrounded by good family and people who have patiently helped me when I've hosed up. More happy than sad times. Out of a desire to seem normal, or brave, or just go unnoticed, I have a really hard time showing negative emotions, even to people I know it's safe to, like my mom. Better than I used to be, but it's still not easy. The idea that Allah sees everything, knows everything, my intents and what I'm thinking and what I'm saying to myself, is infinitely comforting to me. I would like to think in some small way that the good I've done in my life outweighs the bad, even if it's 51% to 50% and no one else around me sees it but Allah. I hope that makes sense.
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Aug 11, 2017 23:13
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Makes sense to me. I understand the importance of salvation from the bondages of sin and misfortune. In the Christian First Epistle of John, it's written that Allah is love. What you've told me suggests that love has saved your life. What are things you've learned about Islam that you'd want every non-Muslim to know? And what are things you've learned that you want every fellow Muslim to know?
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Aug 13, 2017 12:43
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I think your thread title would have been better as sipping on a djinn and tonic, but as you're probably American, I guess I have to forgive that. Are you planning to do the Hajj or have you done it? Did you convert because of the cultural/lifestyle aspect appealed, i.e. in a similar fashion to how very white middle-class people convert to Buddhism because they find it spiritually calming and pick and choose what they like about it, or did you just read into Islam and decide "this looks like the actual factual truth of mankind" and believe you're going to paradise and all that by following its tenets? Sorry if that seems a little blunt.
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Aug 13, 2017 15:20
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Caufman posted:Makes sense to me. I understand the importance of salvation from the bondages of sin and misfortune. In the Christian First Epistle of John, it's written that Allah is love. What you've told me suggests that love has saved your life. The fact that non-Muslims say "you're not really a Muslim" instead of "Oh, a moderate/liberal Muslim" when they ask for my opinions is something that frustrates me. It's slowing getting better though. From a more spiritual standpoint, the flexibility of the practice. There's the idea that it's all rigid, but there are always exceptions. Can't fast because you're sick? No worries, make up for it when you can. Starving and literally all there is to eat is bacon? That's okay, save your life! This isn't really shocking, maybe? But I tend to see people who think Islam is a set of hard rules whereas really, at the core, there is one belief that makes someone a Muslim, the Shahada: "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." If someone believes that, they are a Muslim. Whether they're good or bad is going to depend on where you stand in your own beliefs, but someone who truly believes the Shahada is a Muslim. Jeza posted:I think your thread title would have been better as sipping on a djinn and tonic, but as you're probably American, I guess I have to forgive that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqgz-G5OqXM As for your questions: I would like to do the Hajj. Currently there are two things stopping me. One is that I'm a single woman, and last I checked I have to be either married or 45 years old and then go on a group tour with other women. Which brings me to the second thing, the Saudi government. I have a morally hard time supporting them in any way due to their human rights abuses and what they've done worldwide in promoting Saudi Islam and the harm it's done. (The secret third reason is that with student loans and medical debt I can't afford it and probably wouldn't be able to until I'm 60 )Second question... both? There are practices I like, the rhythms of the day and the poetry of the words. But at the core, the thing that started me on the road to conversion rather than just interest like I'd previously done with Christianity and Judaism, was the truth I found in it. This is hard to explain and I realize that that might leave it somewhat unsatisfying, but we're going into that place where conscious belief mixes with feeling. When I read the first surah, it hit something in me. This is the Yusuf Ali translation, since that's the first one I ever read: quote:In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Again, saying it struck something in me is probably not satisfying, answer-wise, and I do apologize. This is the best I got, I think: I felt the truth of the words and then I read more, and studied more, and learned more, and the core of that truth has stayed with me in the nearly 20 years since.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:16
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I'm curious about your conversion. What were you before you were a Muslim and if you were religious before, what made you think Islam had it right?
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Aug 19, 2017 09:36
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Do you believe Mohammad was the true and last prophet? Does it bother you that he was essentially a warmonger and a pedophile? For that matter, given your stated reasons for becoming a Muslim, is there some reason why you didn't go with one of the other Abrahamic religions which could have given you the same thing, but without the catch of being made up by a guy who heard snippets of Christianity from passing traders? Let me take a quick guess - you're some white guy who had an empty hole in his life and tried to fill it with religion but with an ~exotic twist~
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Aug 19, 2017 09:46
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your friend a dog posted:Do you believe Mohammad was the true and last prophet? Does it bother you that he was essentially a warmonger and a pedophile? The Torah tells me you're an rear end in a top hat. Also op is a woman.
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Aug 19, 2017 16:17
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The Torah tells me you're an rear end in a top hat. If you're going to make an AMA about your religion, you should be ready to defend the most important thing in your life E: In the case, does it bother the OP that Muhammad basically made it so he could have multiple wives? Or that women are treated as second class citizens in the religion? And forced to cover their bodies and heads? Or do you ignore that part of the religion as a "moderate" Muslim
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Aug 19, 2017 20:40
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It will cost the world nothing to have nobody answer your question in bad faith.your friend a dog posted:Let me take a quick guess Always a risky thing to do after you say something phobic. Edgar Allen Ho posted:The Torah tells me you're an rear end in a top hat. And there it is.
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Aug 20, 2017 00:20
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I'm not sure what's "bad faith" about asking the OP to explain why they worship a man who brutally murdered anyone who didn't convert under him and married a 9 year old child, unless you're so insanely far left wing that anything remotely anti-Islam is contrary to you
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Aug 20, 2017 00:31
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Hazzard posted:I'm curious about your conversion. What were you before you were a Muslim and if you were religious before, what made you think Islam had it right? your friend a dog posted:Do you believe Mohammad was the true and last prophet? Does it bother you that he was essentially a warmonger and a pedophile? I can believe that Allah, whatever His reasons, chose someone who was not perfect by our standards today as His conduit for the Quran. I don't know why, and it's one of those lingering questions that I hope is answered for me someday but, until then, just have to mull on myself. There are not clear-cut answers in these matters. Faith, and the reasons behind it, and the way the divine makes itself known, are fuzzy things. I studied Christianity and Judaism, inasmuch as a reasonably-bright 15 year old who reads a lot can. They were interesting to me from a historical standpoint and a social standpoint, but they didn't speak to me, which is likely again not a satisfying answer - it's hard to describe the jolt when I first read the Quran. And you're right, when I was 15 I probably did it in part because it was exotic and different. For the next thirteen years after that I dealt with poo poo life decisions in relationships, drug addiction, and serious health problems, and my faith sort of fell to the background a lot of the time as I got bogged down in my own poo poo. It was less that I stopped believing and more that I didn't think about it because I was more worried about my boyfriend hitting me again, my pancreas killing me, and scoring more oxy. When I was around 28 or so, and life calmed down, I was able to reevaluate my faith and what I believed. When I thought about it, I realized that the core of Islam - there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger - still rang true. I started reading the Quran again, branched out into different translations. Started reading more of the hadith and sunna, started writing about my own thoughts, started delving into Sufi practices, primarily Chishti but generally following the Sufi idea of bringing oneself in closer contact with Allah. In the six years since I've continued that, becoming more clear on what I believe and how it fits and doesn't fit with orthodoxy. At this point I would likely be called progressive or moderate, with varying amounts of disdain depending on who's doing the calling. your friend a dog posted:E: In the case, does it bother the OP that Muhammad basically made it so he could have multiple wives? Or that women are treated as second class citizens in the religion? And forced to cover their bodies and heads? Or do you ignore that part of the religion as a "moderate" Muslim I dress modestly by my interpretation. I don't flash my tits and I don't wear booty shorts. It's not a particular hardship. If other people, Muslim or not, want to dress otherwise, it is not my issue. What a person does that doesn't hurt others, is entirely between them and Allah. Part of Surah 18, al-Kahf, is essentially a story about Moses and Al-Khidr that talks about how someone's outward actions seemed wrong but were in fact done for good. Surah 49:12 also talks about the same topic (this is the Yusuf Ali translation): "O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other behind their backs." Edit: More from the Quran, tangentially related. Surah 39:54: "Say, My servants who have committed excesses against their own souls! despair not of the mercy of Allah, surely Allah forgives all sins. Verily He is Most Forgiving, Merciful." Tendai fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 03:04
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Not an answer to any question, but this is the last sermon of Moinuddin Chishti of the Chishti order. Reading this is what made me start studying Chishti thought in particular after doing a more generalized trawling of Sufi classics like Rumi and Shams.quote:Love all and hate none.
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Aug 20, 2017 03:14
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your friend a dog posted:If you're going to make an AMA about your religion, you should be ready to defend the most important thing in your life Suck my dilz
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Aug 20, 2017 03:23
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Don't be shitlords. Love all and hate none, brah.
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Aug 20, 2017 03:28
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Tendai posted:I was nothing, faith-wise. My parents are an ex-Southern Baptist and an ex-Mormon, respectively, both having left their religion long before I was born in 1982. I came at it with no religious tradition except what I'd witnessed on rare visits to family in the Lower 48. So in other words, you don't have a good reason for why, but you're more willing to accept that Allah chose a murderous pedophile for his main prophet, the most important man in the history of the world and above any other prophet that had ever been born... than that he just made it all up after hearing about Christianity from passing traders and used it as an excuse (ala Joseph Smith) to conquer and rape and pillage?
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Aug 20, 2017 03:34
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Am I right in assuming that there is no answer that's going to satisfy you? Because that's what it seems like.
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Aug 20, 2017 04:27
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your friend a dog posted:I'm not sure what's "bad faith" about asking the OP to explain why they worship a man who brutally murdered anyone who didn't convert under him and married a 9 year old child, unless you're so insanely far left wing that anything remotely anti-Islam is contrary to you Tendai posted:Am I right in assuming that there is no answer that's going to satisfy you? Because that's what it seems like. The nature of a question in bad faith is that the asker is not interested in hearing an answer. They're asking the question for a duplicitous reason. In this case, to troll. edit: Tendai, what to you is the spirit of Muhammad's message? What did he have to say to you from the ultimate meaning? Caufman fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 05:32
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Tendai posted:Am I right in assuming that there is no answer that's going to satisfy you? Because that's what it seems like. So in other words you don't have an answer, and you don't have an explanation for why you chose Islam, a religion that hates your own gender and forces them to physically cover themselves up because it treats them as sub human. You're just a white bread yuppie who wanted a spiritual answer that was nice and close to home, but had that exotic twist to it... so you chose to worship a pedophile warlord. Okay, thanks for the AMA.
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Aug 21, 2017 05:35
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your friend a dog posted:So in other words you don't have an answer, and you don't have an explanation for why you chose Islam, a religion that hates your own gender and forces them to physically cover themselves up because it treats them as sub human. You're just a white bread yuppie who wanted a spiritual answer that was nice and close to home, but had that exotic twist to it... so you chose to worship a pedophile warlord. Okay, thanks for the AMA. this is not a very good question IMO
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Aug 21, 2017 05:58
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Who hurt you, dog, and why do you keep choosing to let that pain define you?
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Aug 21, 2017 07:42
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Caufman posted:Who hurt you, dog, and why do you keep choosing to let that pain define you? im hurt by the fact that people continue to support and buy into a homophobic, misogynist stone age religion started by a saudi arabian pedophile murderer, but pointing any of that is islamaphobia :iamafag:
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Aug 21, 2017 08:04
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Aite dog. May you some day accept that your purpose while you're alive is only to love, not to inflame and be a mischief.
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Aug 21, 2017 08:07
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Caufman posted:Aite dog. May you some day accept that your purpose while you're alive is only to love, not to inflame and be a mischief. maybe if muhammad had realized that, he wouldnt have raped a little girl and then murdered thousands of people
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Aug 21, 2017 08:41
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Don't worry about Muhammad. Only God can sort Muhammad out. You can't do a thing to him. Worry about yourself, especially if you haven't been.
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Aug 21, 2017 08:56
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your friend a dog posted:maybe if muhammad had realized that, he wouldnt have raped a little girl and then murdered thousands of people Good thing you're doing your bit to prevent more rape and murder by posting in this thread! Good work.
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Aug 21, 2017 11:09
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your friend a dog posted:maybe if muhammad had realized that, he wouldnt have raped a little girl and then murdered thousands of people Stop posting.
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Aug 21, 2017 13:53
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Can you talk a little about Sufism and how that works with all the different schools? I'm reading some books about Central Asian history and the different lineages of Sufi teachers are a big deal to everyone, including the occasional blood feud. I'm kind of wondering if it's similar today or if you can just practice a generic Sufism without anyone caring.
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Aug 21, 2017 14:26
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oh look the islam crew is here to defend their pedophile with some badass posts like "u cant post about anything if you're not doing anything to stop it, right now" which - freakin epic philosophy here my dudes  - 100% excuses muhammad and his murderous, woman oppressing cult
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Aug 21, 2017 16:45
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imagining a freakin awesome scientology thread where badass goons  get super mad when people call out ron hubbard and then do super badass dunks like "dont post" and "well good thing you're doing your bit to stop people from brain washing and kidnapping" until no ones left
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Aug 21, 2017 16:48
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I mean, it's OK to critique Islam but it's pretty weird to obsess about Mohammed. News flash: tonnes of historical figures you know and love killed hundreds/thousands/millions and boned children as a matter of course. What does it matter now? The religion has transformed significantly since that time, and one person does not characterise an idea in any case. People react badly because you’re coming into a thread with interesting potential and making GBS threads it up with your retarded ‘gotcha’ questions. There are many problematic/objectionable things with Islam from a Western liberal perspective, but it’s a loving massive ship and by no means monolithic. It is also an incredibly nuanced and complex subject, with a lot of relevance for the modern world. If you don’t have any good faith questions to ask, don’t bother posting.
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Aug 21, 2017 17:05
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Hey dude, people dont worship those guys, base their lives around them, or think they they were the living will of their god. Stop using false equivicocies and "b-but they did it too  "Its not an interesting thread, its a lillywhite westerner adopting a hateful religion and then trying to halfassedly justify its roots of murder and hate because it gives them ~spritual guidance ~
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Aug 21, 2017 18:32
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