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I did one of these two-ish years ago and it was fun for me and I think other people? And I met some neat goons. And we're now in a political climate that is very interesting. I am a Muslim. I wasn't raised one, I converted when I was 15. I'm now 34. I'm a very liberal one at that, as my post history indicates  I know there's a couple more around here with varying beliefs/cultures/etc, if they still post.ISLAM 101 (Stolen more or less from my last thread because the basics don't change) PILLARS In Islam there are five primary obligations that a believer has, the Five Pillars:
Prayer: Five times a day, or possibly three, depending on who you listen to. Three times are specifically mandated in the Qur'an. Or possibly five, if you put verses together rather than assume they refer to the same times of day. It's complicated and even more complicated when dealing with it in translation. Zakat: Charity. There's a fixed percentage (2.5%) of a person's net worth that is supposed to be used for the welfare of the community, though as with most things in Islam, there are exceptions and understanding for people who simply can't afford to. The effort is what counts. Sawm: Fasting during Ramadan, from sunup to sundown. Again, excused if your health or the like can't handle it, and there are specific groups that are excused that I can't remember now. Hajj: The pilgrimage to Mecca. So long is one as physically and financially able (this more or less applies to every "rule" in Islam, it's rather forgiving that way), they should make the pilgrimage once in their lives. Those are the five things set down specifically that basically all Muslims agree on. HADITH / SUNNAH Into that, though, are added the Hadith (things Muhammad is supposed to have said or done) and the Sunnah (practices that were established by Muhammad/his followers that have been passed down, I won't address these directly but they serve roughly the same purpose in Islam). The Qur'an is much less story-like than the Torah and the Bible; not in the sense of being truer or falser but in the sense that it isn't laid out like a history or a narrative. Rather, it's a series of verbal revelations received by Muhammad from Allah, via the angel Jibra'il over a period of twenty or so years. For a very long time it was remembered orally, it's generally believed by scholars that the Qur'an was never written down until after Muhammad's death, when his followers became concerned with the dwindling number of people left alive who had memorized the Qur'an in its entirety. Where the Qur'an is a recitation directly from Allah, the Hadith are more like parables, though even that isn't an entirely correct term. Essentially, they're quotes and actions that purport to be from Muhammad as heard by his wives, followers, children and others who were in his presence, and passed down throughout the history of Islam. Some of them are  , like the stories about Muezza, Muhammad's cat:quote:When the call to prayers was heard, Muezza was asleep on one of the sleeves of the Prophet’s robes. The Prophet wanted to wear the robe to go to prayers. Rather than disturb Muezza, Muhammad cut off the sleeve to leave Muezza in peace. He then stroked the cat seven times, which, it is said, granted Muezza seven lives and the ability to land on his feet at all times. Some are less so: quote:The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women." quote:Say, "If the sea were ink for writing the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement." Essentially, they believe that the Qur'an is the perfect word of Allah so why is everyone putting so much belief into hearsay. They are not, to my knowledge, the majority view. I don't know that I would call myself a Quranist because that word comes with some mildly insane views as well from the ones I've met in real life. But for the vast majority of the time, I share their views on the hadith and sunnah. ------- Trying to put too much will be exhaustive but I don't want to make this too scarce. A lot of the differences in various forms of Islam are cultural more than anything else, and I'll answer what I can about what I know. If anyone has questions about Islam, being a Muslim, being a liberal American Muslim, Islamic history or theology, ask away and I (or anyone else who wanders in) will try to answer. Have some books. The Qur'an (There are a lot of translations out there and if you're really interested in Islam (not even from a spiritual but just historical/modern history standpoint) I recommend reading multiple translations in whatever language you're comfortable with. The most well-known is probably Yusuf Ali's The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary. The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English as translated by Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley is the modern version I use most often.) Hadith As Scripture: Discussions On The Authority Of Prophetic Traditions In Islam by Aisha Y. Musa Shi'i Islam: An Introduction by Najam Haider (An overview of Shi'a Islam. I'm not sure of a corresponding book for Sunni) Essential Sufism edited by Robert Frager and James Fadiman Al-Ghazali's Path to Sufism: His Deliverance from Error by al-Ghazali The Marvels of the Heart: Science of the Spirit by al-Ghazali and Hamza Yusuf Love is the Wine: Talks of a Sufi Master in America by Muzaffer Ozak Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Annemarie Schimmel
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Aug 9, 2017 00:21
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That's actually a fairly recent development, historically speaking. At its core, it's based on the prohibitions in the Quran against idolatry, like so (Unless otherwise noted, all Quran quotations are taken from The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English, translated by Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley):quote:Surah 5, verse 90: quote:Surah 6, verse 14 In Sunni tradition, the prohibition of depicting living things started around 800 AD. Even then, what you believed would depend on the school of thought and culture. As a whole, Shi'a are much more relaxed about imagery, as are people who follow many schools of Sufi thought. This is true about many other things as well. Historically, the Umayyads had beautiful artwork that depicted humans and animals. Persians and Ottomans did as well. These are Persian and Ottoman depictions of Muhammad:   Obviously there was some variation in terms of detail, but the Ottoman representation is still clearly a human figure. Just one shrouded in light. However, as I said, as time passed the pendulum among the Sunni majority swung decisively to the side of imagery of anything with a soul being entirely haram, and past Muslim practices having been mistakes. Save for fairly broad verses from the Quran like those I posted above, this is pretty much entirely based on the hadith/sunnah, particularly Sahih al-Bukhari. quote:Narrated Aisha: I bought a cushion having on it pictures (of animals). When Allah's Apostle saw it, he stood at the door and did not enter. I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I repent to Allah and His Apostle. What sin have I committed?' Allah's Apostle said. "What is this cushion?" I said, "I have bought it for you so that you may sit on it and recline on it." Allah's Apostle said, "The makers of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and it will be said to them, 'Give life to what you have created.' " The Prophet added, "The Angels do not enter a house in which there are pictures (of animals)." In terms of representation in media (both fictional and non-fictional), the vast majority of Muslims one sees (at least in the US) are either "culturally Muslim" or Sunni. And that's not entirely surprising, since Sunni are the far larger majority and people raised as Muslims who don't really practice are safely exotic enough for midlevel America Sorry, that was sharper than it should have been. So anyhow, it's not surprising that many/most people think it's totally prohibited, because to the majority of practicing Muslims, it is.I'm not sure how much I should put of my own viewpoint, but as may be guessed, I don't agree with the majority on this one. I think tasteless depictions of Mohammad are tasteless in the same way I think Piss Christ was tasteless, but that's going to depend on your idea of art as well, etc.
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Aug 9, 2017 23:42
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I would say the vast majority on any sides would view them as not Muslim. To my knowledge, all practicing Muslim schools think that Muhammad was the last prophet. That's not saying they're good or bad, just that they're not Muslim in the same way a Catholic isn't.
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Aug 10, 2017 01:28
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Caufman posted:What do Islam and being Muslim mean to you the most?
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Aug 11, 2017 01:09
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Djinns are one of those carryovers from pre-Islamic Muslim culture, realistically-speaking. They are mentioned in the Quran and one chapter is even named after them. It specifically says things that, like man, the jinn were created to worship. quote:Quran 51:56 Surah 72, al-Jinn, is basically the jinn talking about Allah and worshiping him alone. quote:Quran 72:1-2 Unrelated, but the start of the surah after al-Jinn is one of my favorites, especially in the way the Bewleys translated it. It works better in the poetic formatting like the original: quote:Quran 73:1-2 Anyhow. A Muslim's concept of jinn and whether they think about them at all really except when they read the Quran is going to depend greatly on where they live. Even Muslims on Reddit make jokes about them and they're a reactionary lot by my standards. Caufman posted:What do Islam and being Muslim mean to you the most? I am not a calm person and never have been. It is really, really hard for me to have a moment where my mind isn't going fast. Not about smart things or poo poo to brag about, just worries and anxiety and dumb thoughts about cats, but not ever being loving quiet. It shuts up when I want to concentrate but if I'm not focused hoo boy. So, calm has been something I've struggled to find since I was pretty young. I think my intense fear of death started when I was eight or so, for example. Over time I've learned to control the dumber ones. I've done therapy, drugs, illegal drugs, meditation, etc. The one thing that has ever brought me total, absolute moments of complete calm has been prayer. At times the prayers seem like more an obligation than anything but it's like exercise - once I'm doing it I go "hey, oh yeah, this is great!" And the second part of my answer? My life has not been easy. I struggle with saying that out of some weird sense of not wanting to seem like I'm bragging in the pity party? But I was born with dwarfism and have struggled with weight, anxiety, periods of hard drug use, and extremely poo poo life decisions based on low self-esteem. It hasn't been easy but for the most part I've been surrounded by good family and people who have patiently helped me when I've hosed up. More happy than sad times. Out of a desire to seem normal, or brave, or just go unnoticed, I have a really hard time showing negative emotions, even to people I know it's safe to, like my mom. Better than I used to be, but it's still not easy. The idea that Allah sees everything, knows everything, my intents and what I'm thinking and what I'm saying to myself, is infinitely comforting to me. I would like to think in some small way that the good I've done in my life outweighs the bad, even if it's 51% to 50% and no one else around me sees it but Allah. I hope that makes sense.
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Aug 11, 2017 23:13
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Caufman posted:Makes sense to me. I understand the importance of salvation from the bondages of sin and misfortune. In the Christian First Epistle of John, it's written that Allah is love. What you've told me suggests that love has saved your life. The fact that non-Muslims say "you're not really a Muslim" instead of "Oh, a moderate/liberal Muslim" when they ask for my opinions is something that frustrates me. It's slowing getting better though. From a more spiritual standpoint, the flexibility of the practice. There's the idea that it's all rigid, but there are always exceptions. Can't fast because you're sick? No worries, make up for it when you can. Starving and literally all there is to eat is bacon? That's okay, save your life! This isn't really shocking, maybe? But I tend to see people who think Islam is a set of hard rules whereas really, at the core, there is one belief that makes someone a Muslim, the Shahada: "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." If someone believes that, they are a Muslim. Whether they're good or bad is going to depend on where you stand in your own beliefs, but someone who truly believes the Shahada is a Muslim. Jeza posted:I think your thread title would have been better as sipping on a djinn and tonic, but as you're probably American, I guess I have to forgive that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqgz-G5OqXM As for your questions: I would like to do the Hajj. Currently there are two things stopping me. One is that I'm a single woman, and last I checked I have to be either married or 45 years old and then go on a group tour with other women. Which brings me to the second thing, the Saudi government. I have a morally hard time supporting them in any way due to their human rights abuses and what they've done worldwide in promoting Saudi Islam and the harm it's done. (The secret third reason is that with student loans and medical debt I can't afford it and probably wouldn't be able to until I'm 60 )Second question... both? There are practices I like, the rhythms of the day and the poetry of the words. But at the core, the thing that started me on the road to conversion rather than just interest like I'd previously done with Christianity and Judaism, was the truth I found in it. This is hard to explain and I realize that that might leave it somewhat unsatisfying, but we're going into that place where conscious belief mixes with feeling. When I read the first surah, it hit something in me. This is the Yusuf Ali translation, since that's the first one I ever read: quote:In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. Again, saying it struck something in me is probably not satisfying, answer-wise, and I do apologize. This is the best I got, I think: I felt the truth of the words and then I read more, and studied more, and learned more, and the core of that truth has stayed with me in the nearly 20 years since.
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Aug 13, 2017 18:16
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Hazzard posted:I'm curious about your conversion. What were you before you were a Muslim and if you were religious before, what made you think Islam had it right? your friend a dog posted:Do you believe Mohammad was the true and last prophet? Does it bother you that he was essentially a warmonger and a pedophile? I can believe that Allah, whatever His reasons, chose someone who was not perfect by our standards today as His conduit for the Quran. I don't know why, and it's one of those lingering questions that I hope is answered for me someday but, until then, just have to mull on myself. There are not clear-cut answers in these matters. Faith, and the reasons behind it, and the way the divine makes itself known, are fuzzy things. I studied Christianity and Judaism, inasmuch as a reasonably-bright 15 year old who reads a lot can. They were interesting to me from a historical standpoint and a social standpoint, but they didn't speak to me, which is likely again not a satisfying answer - it's hard to describe the jolt when I first read the Quran. And you're right, when I was 15 I probably did it in part because it was exotic and different. For the next thirteen years after that I dealt with poo poo life decisions in relationships, drug addiction, and serious health problems, and my faith sort of fell to the background a lot of the time as I got bogged down in my own poo poo. It was less that I stopped believing and more that I didn't think about it because I was more worried about my boyfriend hitting me again, my pancreas killing me, and scoring more oxy. When I was around 28 or so, and life calmed down, I was able to reevaluate my faith and what I believed. When I thought about it, I realized that the core of Islam - there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His messenger - still rang true. I started reading the Quran again, branched out into different translations. Started reading more of the hadith and sunna, started writing about my own thoughts, started delving into Sufi practices, primarily Chishti but generally following the Sufi idea of bringing oneself in closer contact with Allah. In the six years since I've continued that, becoming more clear on what I believe and how it fits and doesn't fit with orthodoxy. At this point I would likely be called progressive or moderate, with varying amounts of disdain depending on who's doing the calling. your friend a dog posted:E: In the case, does it bother the OP that Muhammad basically made it so he could have multiple wives? Or that women are treated as second class citizens in the religion? And forced to cover their bodies and heads? Or do you ignore that part of the religion as a "moderate" Muslim I dress modestly by my interpretation. I don't flash my tits and I don't wear booty shorts. It's not a particular hardship. If other people, Muslim or not, want to dress otherwise, it is not my issue. What a person does that doesn't hurt others, is entirely between them and Allah. Part of Surah 18, al-Kahf, is essentially a story about Moses and Al-Khidr that talks about how someone's outward actions seemed wrong but were in fact done for good. Surah 49:12 also talks about the same topic (this is the Yusuf Ali translation): "O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other behind their backs." Edit: More from the Quran, tangentially related. Surah 39:54: "Say, My servants who have committed excesses against their own souls! despair not of the mercy of Allah, surely Allah forgives all sins. Verily He is Most Forgiving, Merciful." Tendai fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 03:04
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Not an answer to any question, but this is the last sermon of Moinuddin Chishti of the Chishti order. Reading this is what made me start studying Chishti thought in particular after doing a more generalized trawling of Sufi classics like Rumi and Shams.quote:Love all and hate none.
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Aug 20, 2017 03:14
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Don't be shitlords. Love all and hate none, brah.
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Aug 20, 2017 03:28
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Am I right in assuming that there is no answer that's going to satisfy you? Because that's what it seems like.
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Aug 20, 2017 04:27
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your friend a dog posted:So in other words you don't have an answer, and you don't have an explanation for why you chose Islam, a religion that hates your own gender and forces them to physically cover themselves up because it treats them as sub human. You're just a white bread yuppie who wanted a spiritual answer that was nice and close to home, but had that exotic twist to it... so you chose to worship a pedophile warlord. Okay, thanks for the AMA. Jeza posted:I mean, it's OK to critique Islam but it's pretty weird to obsess about Mohammed. News flash: tonnes of historical figures you know and love killed hundreds/thousands/millions and boned children as a matter of course. What does it matter now? The religion has transformed significantly since that time, and one person does not characterise an idea in any case. P-Mack posted:Can you talk a little about Sufism and how that works with all the different schools? I'm reading some books about Central Asian history and the different lineages of Sufi teachers are a big deal to everyone, including the occasional blood feud. I'm kind of wondering if it's similar today or if you can just practice a generic Sufism without anyone caring. At the core of it, Sufi practices are focused on the idea that while the ultimate closeness to Allah doesn't come until we die, it's still possible to draw closer to Him in life, by refining the inner self to a state of fitra. I'm really not sure how to best translate that word, it can mean "common sense" or "instinct." It's sort of the most pure form of human nature, the most pure form of what it is to be a person. In turn, once a person reaches that state of inner pureness of being, they are thought to be motivated only by ishq - love, particularly of Allah and His creation - and have essentially brought themselves as close to Allah as a living person can. Different tariqa (schools) have different ways of doing this. Most people have heard of the Whirling Dervishes. They're the Mevlevi order, founded by Rumi, whose poetry a lot of people have read. The work by he and Shams was one of the first things that drew me into studying Sufi thought, this particular piece of poetry by Rumi has always evoked in me a sense of deep contentment that I equate with being even just slightly nearer to Allah through study and prayer: quote:A moment of happiness, Other schools are the Chishti which I mentioned, then there's the Bektashi and a whole lot of others that have really different views all around. It's something that stretches across ideological differences in Islam; Sufi thought (albeit not all of the interpretations) is supported by the stricter Wahhab groups, for example. It's just a different way of trying to get nearer to Allah, one that's still deeply entwined with Islam as a whole - as liberal as I am, I would still probably draw the line and say you can't claim to be a practicing Sufi without being a practicing Muslim. They're too close together. I think it would be hard to have any kind of generic idea of Sufism just because between the tariqa there are such different practices and ideas. There's a core, fundamental goal, but the ways of doing it will be so different that there's not really one "everyone does this," that I know of. Even the types of meditation will vary. I see some generic "Sufi" stuff online but it's almost always struck me as the same kind of "I'm a Kabbalist but not Jewish" sort of thing, where I don't get how you can separate them. If you want to know more about it in general I really do recommend Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Annemarie Schimmel. It's a really good introduction in terms of historical context. Hazzard posted:From my perspective, it only seems to not be worship because Muslims say it isn't. I see Muslims treating Muhammad like Christians treat Jesus. I recall a Muslim on the Big Questions talking about defending the honour of his prophet, when somebody made the accusation of Muhammad being a paedophile. Edit: Found the quote I was looking for, from 3:144, that specifically talks about how Mohammad was merely the messenger, not the divine object: quote:Muhammad is only a Messenger and he has been preceded by other Messengers. If he were to die or be killed, would you turn on your heels? Those who turn on their heels do not harm Allah in any way. Allah will recompense the thankful. HopperUK posted:I found this very beautiful, thanks for posting it. Tendai fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 23:44
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Smoking Crow posted:How does neo-platonism fare in Islam? You had the same texts as the Byzantines and neo-platonism heavily influenced Orthodox thought. Is there any lasting neo-platonism in mainstream islam counterfeitsaint posted:How do you feel about the fact that so many, I'd say the majority, of people who read the studied and contemplated the same words you did came to a very different conclusion? The Quran is vague about things, what they mean, if they're supposed to be interpreted on a deeper level or viewed solely on the merit of the obvious explanation. One of the things that appealed deeply to me about Islam was the sense of individuality - while it's good to be near a mosque and other Muslims, it doesn't make you even slightly less a Muslim if you aren't. That same individuality, in my view, falls on us to interpret the meaning of the Quran. Considering the multitude of different viewpoints in a given group of people, even from the same culture, about far more trivial poo poo, and it's easy for me to see how people are going to have wildly different thoughts on what a given passage means. So I understand it, I really do, or at least the reason it happens. But in my mind, if there's a decision to make, the onus should be on us to make the decision that will most benefit Allah's creation. The interpretations I make tend to swing that way. Allah is not benefited by people dying because they're not Muslims, or they're women, or they're inconvenient; to me it's an insult. We are given so much just by being alive, it's amazing we are alive, whether you look at it spiritually or scientifically. To swing the other way, to decide that to destroy some part of Allah's creation, be it physically, mentally, or emotionally, is the just and fair way to go? It doesn't work with how my mind works. PT6A posted:Lots of people read it the same way that Tendai does, they just don't get a lot of publicity because "local Muslim doesn't think apostates should be killed" or whatever, doesn't make for a really interesting news story.
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Aug 23, 2017 01:29
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Smoking Crow posted:How does neo-platonism fare in Islam? You had the same texts as the Byzantines and neo-platonism heavily influenced Orthodox thought. Is there any lasting neo-platonism in mainstream islam The concept of the One, I understand and recognize. God has many names to many people, and many interpretations. Like this, from Wikipedia, I find similar to how I think: quote:For Plotinus, the first principle of reality is "the One," an utterly simple, ineffable, unknowable subsistence which is both the creative source and the teleological end of all existing things. Although, properly speaking, there is no name appropriate for the first principle, the most adequate names are "the One" or "the Good". The One is so simple that it cannot even be said to exist or to be a being. Rather, the creative principle of all things is beyond being, a notion which is derived from Book VI of the Republic, when, in the course of his famous analogy of the sun, Plato says that the Good is beyond being (ἐπέκεινα τῆς οὐσίας) in power and dignity. I don't quite understand the concept of the nous. I can see where the idea of Christ as the son/emanation of God could come from thought like that, but it could also very well be that I don't understand it. I guess the essential answer here is that I see things to myself after my study of Islam and Sufi general thought that I recognize, but the whole as such is not entirely alike. I apologize for my lack of knowledge! P-Mack posted:Thanks for the info on Sufism! Could you give a little info on Chishti in particular and what the salient distinguishing features of it are, if that's your jam? Chishti have five particular dhikr, devotional practices. Silent and verbal recitation of the names of Allah, meditation and breath regulation, and solitude. Well, more hermitude than solitude, it's specifically withdrawing for 40+ days to a lonely place to pray and meditate. Most if not all of those are shared by other Sufi tariqa in some form or another, but the forms will differ in specifics. Others will also have less or more, there are a whole lot of variations. Prayer before breakfast: I, personally, do it before breakfast because I feel slightly more focused. Otherwise, the answer to that depends on what sunna/hadith you believe and how hard you believe them Grandmother of Five posted:Have you personally experienced bias, discrimination or harassment due to practicing Islam? In relation to that, do you feel that the area in which you live is generally an accepting, safe space for you to live? I currently live in a reasonably-sized town in Colorado in which I am the only Muslim I know of. Based solely on names and conversations I would guess a few people at work are, but I'm not at all certain. There is no mosque within 100 miles and without going over mountain ranges. I'm not really involved with the community and I'm very careful about it when I've been in large cities. Mosques can have extremely diverse viewpoints. Grandmother of Five posted:Like, do you have close personal friends and relatives who aren't Muslim and who doesn't practice Islam, or how far out on the family tree before anyone practicing Christianity or other religions appear? Grandmother of Five posted:Does being a Muslim, for you personally, extend to something like hobbies and sports largely taking place within that religious community? Like, is your rowing or chess club or whatever, also a religious community? To the extent that these communities exists (like a Muslim Chess Club or w/e), do you prefer to engage in them or to engage elsewhere? Grandmother of Five posted:I'd also be interesting in hearing, whether the concepts of heaven and hell in Islam, is more similar to that of Christianity or Judaism. I know that there is a shared framework between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, but can practitioners or Judaism and Christianity go to heaven, or does it hinge on accepting Muhammed as a prophet?
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Aug 24, 2017 02:10
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Did I say yesterday? I meant today. Long week.Grandmother of Five posted:I'd also be interesting in hearing, whether the concepts of heaven and hell in Islam, is more similar to that of Christianity or Judaism. I know that there is a shared framework between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, but can practitioners or Judaism and Christianity go to heaven, or does it hinge on accepting Muhammed as a prophet? Taken explicitely, the Quran seems to indicate that people who are not Muslims, with certain historical exceptions, are not going to jannah, paradise. People not "of reason," however you choose to interpret that, are considered to have their cases left up to Allah, so to speak. They aren't buried in Muslim graveyards but the overwhelming idea even among the sane conservatives I've talked to is that Allah is merciful towards children, or those who don't have the mental capacity to understand, and such, or even people who have literally never heard of Islam. Even for Muslims, however, it's far from guaranteed. There's the pretty ancient idea that your good deeds are weighed against your bad ones, and only if the good outweighs the bad do you go to jannah. It's considered at best a grievous faux paus to assume you're going to paradise, and more usually considered something like an insult to Allah. After that it gets trickier. I think the most conservative would quite literally say "Anyone who's heard about Islam and doesn't immediately believe in it is going to Hell." Others will say people who studied it and don't believe it, etc. I will issue a disclaimer and say that I have no idea how many people, even among moderates and progressives, follow my own view. I can only say it's what I believe and there is, because I'm human, a reasonable chance that I'm wrong. But I hope I'm not. Anyhow, my belief is this: That just hearing about it isn't enough. "Knowing," to me, does not have the same meaning spiritually as it does in terms of something like knowing 2+2=4. Knowing is certainty, being absolutely certain that Allah exists, even if you struggle at times with specific beliefs. And for different people, that takes different paths. My path to Allah was my own, others have theirs. If someone doesn't truly hear the word of Allah, truly hear it, the fault isn't theirs for not believing. Surah 17:15 reads (bolding mine, Sahih International translation): "Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger." Further on in the same surah, same translation: "Your Lord is most knowing of what is within yourselves. If you should be righteous [in intention] - then indeed He is ever, to the often returning [to Him], Forgiving." I can't reconcile things like that with the idea that someone who never found their way to Allah is automatically destined for Hell. Intention matters so much as a whole in Islam that the idea of a black and white division like that doesn't make sense to me. In short, my own beliefs can be summarized as "I believe the only beings that go to Hell are ones who know, in the most spiritual sense, that Allah is real, and who deliberately turn away. I also think most people, even myself, don't necessarily ever reach that point of perfect belief. Thus, intention is extremely important." twerking on the railroad posted:Personally, what do you believe is the reason for the Quran's instruction? Why must women cover themselves? Do you know of any rules for men which you feel counterbalance that one? Baron Porkface posted:Do you believe that the Koran is the revaled word of God? I ask because in the middle of the last a/t Islam thread the OP suddenly announced that he didn't believe it was, and it got on my nerves that he likely said so in order to dodge difficult questions about what the Koran says about social issues. Shizmo posted:How do you defend Islam as a "religion of peace" when the very word "islam" itself means "to submit"? Slavvy posted:I'd go so far as to say it's pretty common to not being a piece of poo poo, religious or otherwise.  Food-wise, yes, unless by accident. I've eaten things made by coworkers/relatives that have pork in them and not realized or not been a rude dick enough to refuse, but on my own volition I avoid them. There's a lot more good halal food available anywhere now thanks to the internet, and it really does encourage me to cook healthily and not rely on pre-packaged poo poo. I do drink (very rarely), and as a post history perusal will tell you, smoke. The Quran specifically says (4:43) not to "approach prayer with a mind befogged" which is a term I've always liked, and one I respect - I do not pray when not sober, which in turns limits my consumption of anything like that because I pray or am at work multiple times a day. Interestingly, medical marijuana is a reasonably big debate in some Muslim areas right now, Islamically-speaking. There's a fairly large number of people who believe it has clear medicinal value and who think that this needs to be addressed, even in orthodox groups.
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Aug 26, 2017 00:31
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Every conversation I've seen about it in real life has been pretty bluntly honest. I've talked to two people in the last ten years who have expressed mild worries about a person in their family or wider circle of connections. I think that's attributable to the people I hang out with, mostly - there is very little of the us-and-them, cultural division that is sadly still really common in American mosques at least (presumably other places as well, but I can't speak for them). On the internet, things are murkier. If everything on the main Islam subreddit is truth, I do worry.
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Aug 29, 2017 01:12
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Smoking Crow posted:yo where's the cats Islam digs cats. Allah will not tolerate people loving with cats: quote:al-Bukhaari (3223) and Muslim (1507) from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both), according to which the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A woman was punished because of a cat which she kept locked up until it died, and she entered Hell because of it, because she did not feed it or give it water when she kept it locked up, neither did she let it eat from the vermin of the earth.” The Prophet dug cats: quote:When the call to prayers was heard, Muezza was asleep on one of the sleeves of the Prophet’s robes. The Prophet wanted to wear the robe to go to prayers. Rather than disturb Muezza, Muhammad cut off the sleeve to leave Muezza in peace. His companions and followers dug cats: quote:Abu Hurayrah (literally “Father of the Kitten”) was so called because he used to love cats and keep them. He became well known by this name and people forgot his real name, until the scholars disputed concerning his real name and there were nearly thirty different opinions as to what it was. Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said in al-Istee’aab: “The most correct view is that his name was ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Sakhr but none of them disputed that he was Abu Hurayrah.” Sufis did and do dig cats: quote:The Sufi master from Baghdad, Shaykh Abu Bakr al-Shibli, was seen by one of his friends in a dream when he passed away. On being asked what Allah had done to him, he said that he had been granted admission to Paradise, but was asked by Allah if he knew the reason for this blessing. Shaykh Shibli enumerated all his religious duties but none of his acts of piety had saved him. Finally Allah asked him, ‘Do you remember the cold day in Baghdad when it was snowing and you were walking in your coat when you saw a tiny kitten on a wall shivering with cold, and you took it and put it under your warm coat? For the sake of this kitten We have forgiven you.’ Modern clerics dig cats (at al-Azhar in Egypt):  And in return, cats give not a single gently caress (same dude as above, I'm reasonably sure): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF7pTSCP4UM
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Aug 30, 2017 23:33
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Cats are even considered cleaner than other animals, a cat drinking from water you're using for ablutions before prayer doesn't make it unclean. Also, an interesting article of a Pew study, which really backs up my own real life experiences and my own views: U.S. Muslims are religiously observant, but open to multiple interpretations of Islam. quote:For American Muslims, being highly religious does not necessarily translate into acceptance of traditional notions of Islam. While many U.S. Muslims say they attend mosque and pray regularly, sizable shares also say that there is more than one way to interpret their religion and that traditional understandings of Islam need to be reinterpreted to address the issues of today. From that article:  N. Senada posted:Something I encountered in college about Islam was the rejection of the human form because of idolatry. I understand this is from a particular school of thought, but it did a lot to liberate me from a toxic perspective on religion. I really appreciated the rejection of Mohamed as God and that he was just a man (a very important man, but still just a man). It helped me better understand stories from the Torah and pull back on my anger towards Christianity.
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Aug 31, 2017 00:21
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That's fairly reasonable, to me. Even some of the most well-respected Sufi like Rumi refer to Allah in surprisingly intimate terms, that some Orthodox look at a bit askance. Sorry for answer delays, work has been a real poo poo lately, and today is a holiday, Eid al Adha. I will explain a bit more about that and answer other questions posted before this later this evening or first thing tomorrow morning, sorry!
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Sep 2, 2017 00:19
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Josef bugman posted:1) He said that, unlike in the Christian tradition, Gods love is "transactive" and that he didn't believe God possessed unlimited love. Is this a strain of thought common throughout the faith, or is it particular to certain groups/ just the bloke I was chatting to? quote:Ar-Raheem, the Most Merciful All of those mean love, to me. I suppose it might depend in large part on how you define the word, but all those combined essentially form my idea of love at a pretty basic level. I do not see my relationship with Allah as transactive, really. Josef bugman posted:2) He did not believe in, what he called "neo-darwinian" evolution, again is this common? He said that it was racist and atheistic and I said that it was often only used by crappy scientists for the former (and some for the later). Josef bugman posted:Oh and this is a general "abrahamic religious" question, but I always found the idea of "I made you, ergo you must worship me" to be a bit off, is there any discussion on this? BattyKiara posted:What is the deal with Muslim marriage contracts? So many jokes along the line of "Did you hear what Fatima put in her marriage contract? The bit with chicken for dinner twice a week?". I feel like I'm missing out on a lot of jokes. I don't know a lot of jokes  Anyhow, the marriage contract is interesting in how it works and is used. Depending on whether you're Sunni or Shi'a, witnesses are either required, preferred, or not totally necessary. A whole lot of detail goes into it. Where you'll live. Finances, from during to after the marriage. What happens if there are kids. All the normal stuff that goes into prenuptial agreements, but more specific. Sometimes a lot more specific. One of the ways that less conservative families in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran get around some of the restrictions in their country's laws as they pertain to women is by writing it into the marriage contract. For example, it can be stipulated that a woman must be allowed to finish university, or has the same right to divorce, or that the husband cannot take another wife. And because these are stipulated, depending on the jurist who might rule on it, they will more often than not be upheld if it comes to it. So it's an ancient thing that's actually being used in a pretty great way to subvert some of the poo poo treatment women get in some countries.
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Sep 2, 2017 03:52
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Remember when I said I hadn't forgotten this thread? This time I did, with no excuse other than it's been a long couple weeks at work and when I get home thinking sounds difficult. Anyhow, I am answering everything here I haven't answered yet. I think.N. Senada posted:Do you participate in ritual prayer? What exactly you do in prayer will depend on what school you follow. The chart on Wikipedia actually gives a pretty decent rundown of the most basic differences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah#Differences_in_practice Whether you speak a certain prayer or do it silently, whether you say something or don't, all those are pretty governed by what path you believe in. Opinion on how much this matters will vary from "it doesn't really" to "gently caress you, apostate." Salah is much more worship than personal. Praising God and glorifying rather than making personal requests, which to me serves multiple purposes. Obviously, praising Allah. Secondarily, doing so in concert with other Muslims around the world. There is something deeply powerful to me about kneeling and knowing that I'm part of a wave of Muslims that circles the world throughout the passing of 24 hours, doing these acts. A sense of community even when isolated. BattyKiara posted:Have a nice Eid celebration. I know you said you would probably never do a Hajj, but could you do a run down of what happens during a Hajj? The different rituals, symbolic acts etc? Anyhow, Hajj. One of my favorite things about Islam is the emphasis on intention, and the meaning of the word itself has that connotation, translating more or less to intend to take a journey. The inward meaning is assigned a great deal of importance, both in the sense of "If you wanted to do Hajj but couldn't for any of a variety of reasons" and "your spiritual state while on Hajj." Hajj takes place during the last month of the Islamic year, which is right now. The actual new year is September 21st this year, Hajj took place from August 30th to September 4th. Hajj starts at the miqat, which is where you change into ritual garments. What specifically those look like can sometimes vary by culture, but it's basically two white sheets wrapped around the body with additional things as necessary to conform with "standards of Muslim public dress" as the Saudis see it. You state your intention of not doing certain things like killing animals, having weapons, or having sex. Then there's a day where you kind of repeat that, and re-state your intention. After that is the most familiar thing to people, circling the kaaba. You do it seven times, and there's prayer involved. A lot of where you end up doing this depends, on this point, on how huge the crowds are. Then you do running between the hills near the Kaaba. This is in a tunnel, which is one of the downsides because if you haven't heard about people getting killed during Hajj in the past 10-15 years, I'm not sure what to tell you. On the plus side, it's air conditioned, so people like me from cold places wouldn't literally die in the Saudi sun. After that men shave their heads and I think some women clip a piece of their hair. This is an area I'm not too certain on the why. Anyhow, that's all one day. In the next four days you go to Mina, Arafat, and then the area in between them, and finally back to Mina. There is praying throughout. The next day, you do the stoning of the devil, which is another thing I think people have heard of. It's a remembrance of Abraham, during his Hajj he's said to have stoned three pillars, representing his temptation to disobey Allah. In the following few days this is repeated in varying orders. The Saudis replaced the pillars with walls because people were getting hit with rocks Then comes the animal sacrifice, which is not really done as much in person anymore due to the sheer numbers. Now there are vouchers, and the meat goes to charity. That's Eid al-Adha, which I mentioned before; even if you're not doing Hajj it's a holiday and you sacrifice. If you're someone like me who is living in a condo and your HOA would seriously frown on you killing your own meat, you give to charity to feed others, or something similar. At the very end, you circle the kaaba again. This is called the tawaf al-wadaa, which basically translates clunkily to "the circling ritual of saying goodbye," because tawafs are specific rituals to the circling of the kaaba and wadaa means to say goodbye or farewell. Then you go home, though you might also go to Medina to see Muhammad's tomb or to other places depending on your interests or finances. The "official" Hajj ends at sunset on the sixth day.
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Sep 7, 2017 23:37
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There are reasonable questions as to why tactics are used so predominantly among Muslims. I mean, I may just not look at the right statistics, but even from my viewpoint it seems like there are more, say, Muslim suicide bombers and there are radical Christian suicide bombers, in terms of even just percentage of population. I might be wrong, I am honestly not looking at facts right now. So I think there are legitimate concerns as to what in modern Muslim culture, seemingly transcending nationalities, is causing this. I obviously recognize that Islam is a commonality among those people who do this. But I don't take our holy book to be any particularly more violent than the Torah or the following New Testament. I think the hadith play a large part in it, which is one of the reasons I don't take them as concrete guides, but rather something more akin to a parable that is meant to guide and may not be relevant in the current time. I hesitate to go too much further on this, because it's very easy to sound like I'm just poo poo talking the Saudis. But the way they have been the heaviest promoters of an extremely reactionary form of Islam around the world in the last 30 or 40 years has contributed a great deal to the current Orthodox Muslim culture in good and bad ways. More people are exposed to Islam thanks to their initiatives like sending free copies of the Quran and improving the safety of places like Mecca. On the other hand, the form of Islam that they are introduced to is one that I cannot believe in. It's one that makes me honestly startled, because I have the naive view that humans are evolutionarily out for themselves but are able to overpower that with the realization that there are basic principles that we have also evolved to understand. See, this is one of those times where I think I just ramble and sound a little crazy. But I have deep moral objections to Saudi brand Islam as both a Muslim and a human being.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:01
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twerking on the railroad posted:Well I certainly don't want to defend the Saudis (or anyone really) here, but I think you could say many of the same things about Iran. Or, going one step further, one could ascribe much of what you said to the little cold war these two countries have going. That is true, but to my knowledge, the Iranians have not made quite the concentrated push in the last 30 to 40 years with regards to spreading their version of Islam. It's still a horrible regime with God awful human rights issues, but in terms of the impact on worldwide Islam and how people view it, I think the Saudis have done far more damage in terms of what they promote as being Orthodox Islam. Does that make sense?
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Sep 9, 2017 16:48
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Well I mean, it's been over a thousand years, so... Realistically, the best we can hope for is probably "stop hating each other and saying that the other side aren't doing it right," and even that's going to be a stretch. Remember that this split originated immediately after the death of Muhammad in 632 AD, so it's been closer to 1500 years at this point. There are huge divisions in terms of dogma and practices, and general mindset - like I've said before, Shi'a thought as a whole generally tends to be (but is not always) slightly more chill and edging more towards liberal. For example, they're alright with tattoos and Sunni aren't, etc. So the answer is, unlikely. Sadly.
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Sep 14, 2017 23:40
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I actually agree with regard to my favorite part of the Quran. The fact that the first two qualities of Allah that are mentioned throughout Muslim ritual, across culture, are beneficence and mercy, speaks pretty deeply to me. Allah is also described in more aggressive ways, but the ones that are driven most throughout the day to day of Muslim life are two appealing, gentle qualities. When I'm in a bad spot, if I'm going through something rough, and praying for example, I will often end up just repeating that term to myself and fingering prayer beads. Raheem is not an uncommon Muslim male name, and if I didn't think I'd look like a wannabe Arab poseur giving a potential child a name name in Arabic, I'd probably give it to my son if I had one someday. It's a good quality to strive for in anybody.
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Sep 15, 2017 22:40
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Thank you for that explanation! I don't know much about written Arabic except to recognize a few very common phrases like that.
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Sep 16, 2017 14:00
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Hi, I am on my tablet right now, but as soon as I'm at my actual computer where I can type and not just dictate or type using that stupid screen typing, I will answer questions sorry guys
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Sep 23, 2017 15:39
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BattyKiara posted:Why is there no Islamic music? The call to prayer sounds like it should be the base of a rich musical tradition, but it isn't. Why not? Baron Porkface posted:How do you and your leaders handle that fact that Mecca is governed by an enormously cruel and corrupt government? Did your leaders ever comment on the impact the Grand Mosque seizure has had on the politics of Islam?
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Sep 25, 2017 23:22
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Please note that I don't know if this is actually fact, because I'm not a music historian and this isn't a part of Islam that I'm spectacularly familiar with. However, I would guess that it has something to do with the lack of formalized ritual in Islam as compared to, say, Catholicism and Orthodoxy, where Christian liturgical music really got its start. Yes there are Friday prayers, but they aren't nearly so... formal? As what I've seen of Christian Services. I don't know if there's a better word, I feel like there is. But there isn't the sense of wanting the Believers to come together as a single entity, quite so much? I would guess that probably plays a large part in this. But again, I am not in music history major, and this isn't a part of Islamic history that I've delved super deeply into. Edit: I do not actually capitalize words like a histrionic Victorian letter writer, but my voice to text sure as gently caress wants it to seem like I do
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Sep 28, 2017 23:05
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As was said, it's really going to vary between people. I tend not to use it, I have to admit because I think it breaks up the flow of writing too much. It too often feels like an obligatory string of capital letters at the end of every mention of him, like I often see on Muslim areas online. I have too often seen it used as a sort of holier-than-thou point in the favor of the type of person who makes those kind of arguments. Consequently the insistence on it sits strangely with me. Often it will just depend on what's being talked about or said. That being said, I know many good people who also follow this standard and who I don't think are doing it for holier-than-thou reasons. But you know how tricky a subject tone can be on the internet. Tendai fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Oct 4, 2017 |
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Oct 4, 2017 22:52
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That is exactly why I don't even sub-and-not-comment to the r/islam board anymore The audacity of being an educated woman who was often older than they were who didn't back down really hosed up some egos over there.
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Oct 5, 2017 01:02
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That is interesting, one of the things I noticed last time I did a thread like this was when I looked around at resources online for converts, there were way less websites saying oh you have to change your name to something Arabic. That's really different than it was when I converted in... 1998? Somewhere around there. At that point, using the search engines and other resources of that time, most of the biggest websites geared towards people really learning about Islam or having just converted, were pretty strongly on the side I'm changing your name something Arabic, no matter what. Even just the Arabic version of the name. When I look now, and look at the consensus among most Muslims on social media that I've read, the opinion is more that changing your name is somehow disrespectful to your parents. Unless it's something that is quite literally offensive to Islam and/or might cause harm to you or others, there's really no reason to change it. I feel like it's a definite step in the right direction in that sense. I still cringe at remembering my idiot teenage self trying to convince friends and teachers to call me by an Arabic name in my small Alaskan fishing town. Lord, teenagers are loving idiots.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:53
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That's cool I didn't know that. Looks kind of cool even tiny, but Arabic calligraphy just appeals to me aesthetically anyways.
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Oct 11, 2017 23:22
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pidan posted:To be fair, using decorative (pseudo-)Arabic writing was pretty common in medieval European art, especially on clothing. While people don't really know what reasoning went into using it, it's unlikely that the people creating those images of Christian saints were trying to convey some Islamic sentiment. It seems more likely that the Arab script was used to characterise imported, expensive and high-quality materials. Much like decorative Chinese characters are often used on Chinese luxury goods like tea and silk in western countries today.
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Oct 28, 2017 01:44
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It really depends on a lot of things, as was said. Location, cultural composition, what type of Islam they practice, how old the general participants are, all of the things that will generally kind of define churches as well. That being said, I think the uses to which they are put will generally often be the same, social gatherings, possibly the athletics if they have that kind of funding. There are some practices that based on my knowledge and experience probably wouldn't go down much, like having birthday parties and such. Birthdays and Islam and whether they are celebrated are kind of a wide topic of controversy. The more conservative will say that it is totally against Islam to celebrate a human birthday in that way. The more liberal say ah, whatever, just don't do anything directly transgressive against Islam. Naturally I think most people probably fall somewhere in between.
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Oct 30, 2017 23:19
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Beta Orbiter posted:The Qur'an doesn't actually forbid alcohol or intoxicants (khamr) in general. It says that putting these things into our bodies is bad for us, and we should weigh the pros and cons, but only in the Hadith did the Prophet Muhammad PBUH say that it is forbidden. So in that way you can say the Qur'an holds more weight than the Hadith, and therefore justify such things. There are also certain Schools in the faith that follow different trends. For example, in Maliki, the Qur'an is most important of course, with the Hadith second. But the consensus of the people of Medina is third, giving those who follow the School a chance to "grow" with the changes in society, which one could also say would justify things like alcohol consumption. The other caveat to this is that one should not commit to prayer while the mind is altered, and praying five times throughout the day would be hard to do while imbibing. I am not a really good poster because quite frankly work ate my brain and when I get home I am all "nah, I am not prepared for theological thought right now, just post in the cat thread." Anyhow, there should be more Muslims around here. There used to be!
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Dec 9, 2017 19:23
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Speaking in broad generalities based on what I remember of the old and modern scholars I've read (in other words, qualifying the hell out of this), the general idea is that if it's something that you need for medical reasons, it's okay. This will vary depending on any number of things like culture and preferred school, but that is the general idea that most people I've read seem okay with. The preference is (as it should be, given the opioid epidemic in the US at least) for using painkillers without narcotic effect, but for the most part the scholars on both conservative and liberal sides are pretty okay with medically-prescribed things of that nature. The debate over medical cannabis has been subtle but interesting to follow. Prayer in particular, you really are supposed to approach it without "a mind befogged" as it's put. This is one of the places where the Quran is actually pretty specific, and it's not based on tradition or the hadith: "Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say." So the preference in your idea would be that Ali doesn't pray at all, until he's in a place where he can do it with his head in the right place. Just like people aren't expected to fast if their health or circumstances won't allow it. Islam has a lot of "do this, except when it would be an undue hardship for you" built into it in the day to day life. Anyhow. In my readings, the part about prayer is generally taken just to mean the ritual prayer - which supplication in the more Christian prayer sense is not. No one's gonna be like "Ali don't pray to Allah for respite or for your family" unless they're a garbage human being. Tendai fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Dec 10, 2017 |
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Dec 10, 2017 19:13
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So, that is an interesting question. One of the things I noted was interest on my return to online Islamic forums like Reddit and the like was a strong push for what I would consider woo woo medicine with regards to mental health and physical health as well. There was a weird undercurrent of distrust against mental health professionals in particular that was bizarre to me. Luckily, saner minds seem to Prevail for the most part, and I think most people would essentially take the view that you are bringing your brain chemistry back to a point of normality so to speak, so it doesn't count. That might get a bit trickier with things like Xanax or other drugs with a notable sedation effect but I have not looked into that much to be honest.
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Dec 13, 2017 04:41
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I'm bad at threading and had the old A/T bookmarked and figured that out tonight, I thought this was dead. Sorry, I am an idiot!BattyKiara posted:Mosque question: I recently visited a nearby mosque (disappointed, no resident cats) and learned about the NO SHOES rule. Which I can understand. But what about Muslims in wheelchairs? Do the wheels count as shoes since they touch the ground? And when you wash before prayers, do you also wash the wheelchair? Same with artificial limbs, do you wash your "new" arm or leg? Or remove the artificial limbs before prayer? The washing I can't really comment on because I have no idea.
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Feb 27, 2018 03:04
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First day of Ramadan is always a struggle, oof. I remember when I first converted in Alaska it fell during the winter for awhile, it was basically like cheating Blessed Ramadan all.
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May 18, 2018 00:42
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Ouch Second day is slightly easier because I'm not at work at least. Come back, winter Ramadan, come back.
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May 20, 2018 01:30
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