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doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

FirstAidKite posted:



Should I give context for this or should I just leave this here, corn in the bible style :v:

Cool! I have been wondering what comes in that package. I signed up for a more extensive thing because I'm really interested in this style of storytelling. So far, it's been exceeding my expectations.

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doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

Sakurazuka posted:

For some reason role playing two separate characters felt weird to me in the original, uh, Original Sin. Obviously I didn't have anyone to co op with.

I ended up having goofy fun with that. I gave each character a personality and tried to really RP as them (instead of how I normally play which is some mixture of "what would I do here" + "what do I think gives me the most additional content from this decision?"). Because there's the weird RPS conversation conflict manager, I could even have them disagree and argue amongst themselves.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

corn in the bible posted:

the thing about raids (or strikes. whatever) is they're actually pretty hard to make if you're gonna put the effort in, and the big MMOs don't add them that often either (ff14 is sort of an exception but all its raids are corridors). but people are conditioned to expect a shitton because all the major mmos out have been here so long that they have a bunch of them.

when wow was new it had, what, one raid? but that was over a decade ago lol

If the advantage other MMOs have is they've been around for awhile, this raises some questions about Bungie's "sunset all our D1 content" approach to game development.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

Saint Freak posted:

Birds retroactively make dinosaurs less cool and I don't know that I can forgive them for that.

"less cool"?


LESS COOL ?!

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

wuggles posted:

I just got a PS4! Destiny 2 is good.

e: I'm sorry I didn't read the thread before I posted.

PS4 is good! Now's a great time to buy in because all these great exclusives from this year are now things that go on sale often. I am happy to own a PS4.

What do you like about Destiny 2? I tried playing Destiny 1 and didn't like it at all. Too repetitive and bland for me. Is 2 better?

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

Unfunny Poster posted:

If you live a life of "not consuming anything video game related other than the video games themselves" it's actually a pleasant experience. I highly recommend it.

Your uplifting message of monk-like discipline is somewhat diminished by the fact that you are posting it in a gaming chat thread.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

CJacobs posted:

It's sorta common sense? Summoning is basically a way to choose your difficulty, and the default is not having any or even having the ability to summon. You don't start as human or with the white soapstones in any of the souls games (or Demon's Souls), save for 2 where becoming human is part of the tutorial.

You also don't start with much in the way of equipment or Soul Levels, but the game hands those tools to you along the way too. I think we're expected to use all of them as we see fit? And so the dev smears out its difficulty nicely so that chumps like me can play and enjoy the series while dedicated geniuses can also ignore all the tools and no hit the game on an SL1 naked dude with Bolt Paper or whatever.

I mean this is a game series where, if you know the patterns, you can cheese many bosses, skips whole sections etc. The weird purity tests that people have about, like, not using the online play mechanics as presented but it being totally legit to corner a boss in a certain way and stunlock it with certain weapons is pretty funny to me. It's a game whose presentation is so obscure that it takes lots of people and trial and error to find all the secrets or even follow simple quest lines which most players won't do. They'll just looks things up on a Wiki. Which is grand! Everyone gets to play the game the way the like.

Personally, I have never liked boss fights in games, but I love the high tension exploration and navigation of regular souls travel and combat. So I do everything I can do avoid spoiling myself on that experience, while with bosses, I'll fight it a couple times to try to get a sense of the moves/see if I can beat it, and if I can't I'll happily summon so I can get back to the part of the game I love. The bosses I do beat are hell of satisfying and I'm happy to feel smug about solo'ing the Dancer which lots of people have trouble with, while sheepishly saying "gently caress the Twin Princes" and summoning help even though most people say that's an easy fight. Then I can get back to the part of the game I LOVE.

Here's a great Gamasutra article about the techniques Dark Souls uses makes players feel like it's harder than it really is, to help people feel more badass.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/178262/deep_dungeon_exploring_the_design_.php?page=1

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

dogsicle posted:

huh, didn't realize 1 did it and haven't played 3

There are moments in 3 when it's possible to end up having an NPC summon you.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

Olive Garden tonight! posted:

You seemed to be saying 'you can't upload hours of unedited gameplay footage', which is something I could find roughly a million of by doing a quick search.

People also upload content they don't have rights for and try to protect themselves from liability by saying "No copyright infringement intended." which is, uh, not how that works.

Copyright law, especially Fair Use, is extraordinarily complicated so I wouldn't look to the average YouTube user for guidance on the rules.

e: Here's Google's official non-answer about the rules for video games on YouTube.
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/138161?hl=en

"Get a license from the publisher" & "Videos simply showing a user playing a video game or the use of software for extended periods of time may not be accepted for monetization"

doingitwrong fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Sep 11, 2017

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

Olive Garden tonight! posted:

Thanks for the reasonable responses instead of shouting 'read it again, loving dumbass'

If you want to go down the fair use rabbit hole, there's a pretty good Internet-literate primer here
http://dlrp.berkman.harvard.edu/node/82

There's a 4-factor test and no promises about which of the factors will be seen as most important by the judges on your case.

Then if you want to go further down, you can learn about the DMCA and the ways it is stacked in favour of the complainant. My memory is that if Firewatch Dev submits a complaint, YouTube has to take it down and then PDP can file paperwork to contest the complaint. More here: http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/responding-dmca-takedown-notice-targeting-your-content

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

glam rock hamhock posted:

The thing is, in the end it doesn't even matter if it's legal, it just matters how Google wants to handle it. Like the first amendment doesn't even matter because it's google's space and they can shut down who they drat well please

No, it matters how they handle it, legally. The DMCA requires them to take down content complained about in a timely manner. If they fail to do this, then they lose the protections they get as being a pipeline for content and can become liable for any rule breaking. Look up DMCA Safe Harbor if you want to know more.

So far, my GotM is $8 Bloodborne. I was slow to get into the Souls genre but after playing DS3 & this, I am thoroughly hooked. If any of you are like me and the idea of a super tough game with impossible boss fights turns you off: it turns out there are a lot of systems in the game to make things easier. You can kind of choose your own difficulty by electing to raise (or not) your level, summon cooperators and look up guides to find the sometimes easy to exploit patterns, once you know they exist. The exploration gameplay in this series is phenomenal, and nowhere else other than Metroid or Myst/Obduction have I gotten as much satisfaction from opening a door.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013
Old Man Murray fought 9/11 the only way they knew how.
http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/21.html

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013
So that last sequence, which features someone (the other girl?) beating the poo poo out of a cyclops girl and smashing her cellphone. That's pretty hosed up.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013
Dragon's Dogma lets you climb on giant monsters Shadow of the Colossus style and sometime they fly into the air taking you with them and then you murder them and they hurl to the ground. Also there is a weird sub game where you train up a pawn and send him or her out into the world to work for other players and sometimes they come back with gifts. Also, also, it has an in-game barber shop so you can mess with your appearance and your pawn's appearance as much as you like, which is something I have never understood why most rpgs restrict.

Thanks for listening.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

exquisite tea posted:

I wonder how many Shepards were aborted in the womb immediately after the heroic face reveal in the opening moments of the game when the camera swivels around to show the hideous monster you spent the last 30 minutes creating.

Mass Effect 2 was the best for this since character creation happened after an extended intro sequence that had playable sections and no save points.

Dragon Age Inquisition gets points for setting the creation moment in a room with glowing green ambiance, making it near impossible to accurately predict what colors you'll look like in every other context.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

precision posted:

That whole intro only takes like 5 minutes but yes it's still dumb

It's literally twice that long. & 5 or 10 minutes is too long for me to realize I want to change my lipstick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoFrh_e5cWY

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

I basically agree with everything that you said but I don't think you've identified why RTeP is bad. I think you have identified the design constraints that RTwP should have.

I think there are basically five (maybe 6?) fundamental RPG battle systems. We've mostly been talking about I go-you-go Turn Based (with initiative queues) (Wasteland, Fallout 2) vs RTwP (BG2, PoE) vs full on Real Time (Starcraft)

To that I'd add:
* Active Time Battles (FF IV etc)
* Simultaneous Turn-Based (we all input our orders and then the turn plays out) (Diplomacy)
And maybe as a subset of I-go-you-go Turn-Based — my side moves then your side moves (X-COM)


What full on Real Time, RTwP, ATB & Simultaneous Turn Based get you is the idea of everything happening at once. It generally flows better. It feels like an active fight instead of a board game. All the turn based options, and especially the I-go-you-go variations are obviously much more deliberate in the experience.

Real Time is the gold standard here, but the cost is that it demands higher mechanical mastery for the same level of complexity. ATB, RTwP & STB all try to mitigate that in different ways. By reducing the number of abilities you need to account for (ATB generally keeps lots of abilities but removes positioning from the mix) games like StarCraft have very limited numbers of spalls for casters and so on. RTwP instead allows you to recreate the full complexity of a system like 2nd Ed DnD by reassuring the player "It's OK, you can pause if this gets to be too much".

Other ways of mitigating that are reducing party size, having better AI, or making the goddamn spell lists much shorter. RTwP makes it easier to avoid confronting the UI problems of your crazy magic system by giving the developers an out, but it's pretty clear that Obsidian agrees with you that 6 person parties with lots of marginally different spells/abilities isn't much fun. Which is why they are dropping to 5 members and cleaning up the buff/debuffs and reducing the number of abilities in general for PoE 2.

The thing is that done well, RTwP doesn't even announce itself as such. FF12 (which I have not yet played) makes a feature out of the complexity by creating a gambit system that allows you to plan out and design AI scripts and then watch it play out like clockwork. You can pause it, or take control as you need in the moment. A lot of people love that game and the combat in it. I regularly forget that DA:2 and DA:I are RTwP but they are. It's just that your smaller party, reasonable AI, and limited moves lets you ignore the pausing for the most part. It's there if you need it. And I bet almost no one thinks of Mass Effect as a RTwP series but in single player it absolutely is.

OK, but PoE is an isometric RPG and not a cover shooter. Why not make everything turn based? Beyond the nostalgia factor, let's not forget the weaknesses of turn-based. There are lots and lots of moments in TB combat when it's REALLY BORING. It requires the same amount of effort and attention to move my party forwards in an otherwise empty field as it does in the middle of an insane firefight. Anyone who has spent 15 minutes looking for the last alien pod in an XCOM mission knows the pain I speak of here. And it feels lovely and helpless to watch your character who missed their 96% attack weather the storm of retaliation. That's a feel-bad moment that RTwP avoids.

Simultaneity is fun. But being able to play a game without needing 200APM is also fun. RTwP allows you to dance up and down the scale of attention according to the complexity of the situation. Which isn't to say that this should give developers a free pass to make their games stupidly complex. I too end up favouring passive abilities in my RTwP games and I generally find that levels 5-15 are more fun than early game when I can't do anything and late game when there are too many things I could do.

At its best RTwP is like EUIV. You run the simulation but from time to time to stop, step in and tinker.

doingitwrong fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Sep 25, 2017

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

Quest For Glory II posted:

marry ubi, gently caress capcom, kill EA

what even does EA make that anyone cares about on this forum. i dont mean in the world because obv battlefield, madden whatever. i mean the people in this thread

Dragon Age, Mass Effect are game series I care about. Bioware in general even as they make mistakes along that way. I don’t hate Need For Speed Rivals and dip in and out of that series for arcadey car racing (the latest with FMV acting was awful,and unfun) And I guess SSX though it’s been awhile since we got one of those. Mirror’s Edge for some people.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013
I picked up Mordheim City of the Damned for my Xbox and it’s pretty fun, it’s a more board-gamey xcom-like game with no strategy layer set in Warhammer. You have no choice but to iron man the game, and it’s balanced around brutal combat that’s fairly forgiving when your characters ‘die’ so that you can over time accrue both experience and casualties and veterans with long term injuries. You’re expected to lose some battles I think but still pull through.

Outside of the turn based combat that works nicely with the controller, it’s a clearly PC first interface and they really didn’t think through a lot of the choices. Most glaringly a lot of screens with choices have accept and cancel but you can’t A to accept and B to cancel. You have to select one or the other with dpad and then hit A either way. When it comes to cycling through menus, sometimes you’re using the bumpers, sometimes the triggers, sometimes Y, sometimes the stick and it’s never felt consistent so I keep backing out of a decision when I meant to toggle a box. This makes the warband management side of it really disorienting and confusing which makes that part more time consuming than I’d like.

But the fights are wonderfully tense. There is a scavenging mechanic which pushes you to spend more time on the map but a fight can end when you kill too many of the other team’s guys, which ends the scavenging opportunities. This pushes you to spread out your forces to search faster but everything else about the combat wants you to be close together so you can gang up on enemies quickly. It’s a nice risk reward challenge that I still haven’t mastered.

Having no choice but to iron man makes it easier to accept the bad rolls and luck. You get attached to your characters as they progress and it’s sad when they die and fun when they come back with injuries they survive but new idiosyncrasies. The company that made it is working on a Necromunda adaptation and I am super excited for that. If they can tighten up the interface, running a gang will be fun as heck I hope.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

Raxivace posted:


Also VideoGames your avatar is too scary for me now please change it to something less frightening.

So long as you keep looking at it, it can’t get you.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013
I'm still playing Mordheim and really into it. It's slow and stressful. Every turn feels like it counts. The early periods of fog of war are worrisome. The optional objectives are generally in direct contradiction to your main goal "rout the other team" because if you win before completing them you don't get the reward. This means you can ramp the difficulty up and down for yourself. Some missions I'm trying to keep the other team alive but contained so I can pick up the last collectible thing. This is risky because if I do it wrong I can incur long term injuries. Sometimes I'm on the knife edge of losing so I'm just trying to kill enough people to drop their morale before the finish off my valuable unit with a sliver of health.

Before I said there is no strategy layer but now I'm more realizing that the game has put the strategy layer into the tactical layer and they are pushing and pulling one another.

Also I went to do one of the story missions and it said it would be "Normal" and this was a lie that it told me and my whole squad got wiped. But a wipe in this game is not as brutal as a wipe in XCOM and the head of my order gave us a speech about getting back out there and trying again which was nice.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

exquisite tea posted:

I think for a lot of choice-based narrative games, the knowledge that situations could have been resolved differently is more compelling than actually seeing them all play out. I'll probably never replay Until Dawn but I did have fun going to the wiki and reading up on all the possible permutations.

Yes! It's the whole "I'm not really a hero unless I had the option to be a villain" which is part of why it's so unsatisfying to find out that a decision you agonized over turns out to have not actually been all that significant and the person was going to die either way within a scene or two.

doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

This is inscrutable.

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doingitwrong
Jul 27, 2013

precision posted:

this is disingenuous af my dude, i've only had the game 2 weeks and play 1-2 hours a day, several days i haven't played at all, and i'm "raid ready"

destiny 1 was an insane grind for broke brains but d2 really is not

So what’ll you do in the game now? PvP? Raid more? What’s fun about the game for you now that you’re reaching the end game?

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