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Here's the September discussion thread. The theme this time for discussion is what your favorite expy is. From Nighthawk to American Crusader, from Sentry to Supreme, it's practically a good chunk of big two comics now anyway. I'm tempted to go with SUPREME for the obvious pick of a favorite, but everyone knows how great that comic is by now and frankly I've been partial to HYPERION as of late- his recent 616 Marvel stuff from his mini and associated stories are great.  Dude's origin is that he's from the microverse, and his home world was that of the very first atom split by the atomic bomb. Which is a neat twist on the basic 'last survivor of his planet' concept and about as comic books as you can get, frankly. Of course, this is the general discussion thread for September, so feel free to talk about whatever! KaosMachina fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 09:46
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There's too many Hyperions, it confuses me.
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Sep 1, 2017 09:55
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What's an expy? Thought maybe you meant expat but I don't think that makes sense in context.
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Sep 1, 2017 13:17
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A Strange Aeon posted:What's an expy? Thought maybe you meant expat but I don't think that makes sense in context. They're imitation versions of other characters, like the way Hyperion and Sentry are Marvel's versions of Superman.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:01
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Still going through early Marvel. Early X-Men Kirby art is loving atrocious. Kirby has some good stuff but man his bad stuff is bad. I know the inker carries a lot of the responsibility for how Kirby's art looked, but I don't think you can put this down on the inker alone. (X-Men #1 was actually good in terms of setting up a new team book, though the art wasn't anywhere near what Kirby was doing on titles like FF or Thor. X-Men #2 was a piece of garbage from plot to script to story.)
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Sep 1, 2017 14:20
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Jordan7hm posted:Still going through early Marvel. Early X-Men Kirby art is loving atrocious. X-Men is clearly the one neither Lee nor Kirby were all that invested in (fully expect someone to swoop in and correct me on that score); I think you can tell that, in the 1960s, Lee's favourites are Spider-Man and Captain America while the stuff Kirby's most passionate about was FF and Thor (and also probably Cap - I'm not sure but I assume he must have been).
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Sep 1, 2017 14:29
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Sinteres posted:They're imitation versions of other characters, like the way Hyperion and Sentry are Marvel's versions of Superman. Oh, never heard that term before. I hate to be basic but Supreme (Alan Moore version, obviously) is so good. It really captures the madness and joy of the Silver Age. Does DC have equivalents of the weird cosmic Marvel characters? I know there's the 4th World guys but they don't seem on the same level as Galactus and company. And somewhat related, are there powerful artifacts in DC like the Infinity Gems or Cosmic Cube? I know individual heroes have stuff like Wonder Woman's lasso and Green Lantern's ring, but those don't really trade hands very often or act as huge macguffins, at least to my knowledge.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:33
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A Strange Aeon posted:Does DC have equivalents of the weird cosmic Marvel characters? I know there's the 4th World guys but they don't seem on the same level as Galactus and company. Anti-Monitor and Imperiex are the main ones that occur to me. There was Kismet from late 90s / early 00s Superman comics, who was sort of like the DC equivalent of Eternity. In JLA/Avengers, they meet and fall in love (because who else could they get paired up with). quote:And somewhat related, are there powerful artifacts in DC like the Infinity Gems or Cosmic Cube? I know individual heroes have stuff like Wonder Woman's lasso and Green Lantern's ring, but those don't really trade hands very often or act as huge macguffins, at least to my knowledge. There's a few of them - they were in the scavenger hunt section in the first two issues of JLA/Avengers.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:42
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A Strange Aeon posted:And somewhat related, are there powerful artifacts in DC like the Infinity Gems or Cosmic Cube? I know individual heroes have stuff like Wonder Woman's lasso and Green Lantern's ring, but those don't really trade hands very often or act as huge macguffins, at least to my knowledge. Motherbox
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Sep 1, 2017 15:46
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DC cosmis guys seem more villain of the month/event kind of stuff where they show up, get dealt with, and then aren't heard from. It doesn't feel as integrated as the Marvel cosmic in my mind, which is weird given the green lantern setting but I don't read those so I might be wrong.
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Sep 1, 2017 17:54
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Are expys only the carbon-copy type character or does inspiration of themes also count? 'Cause if so, mine is Jaime Reyes as Blue Beetle written by John Rogers. DC's cosmic stuff seems more humanoid based, with the Legion of Super-Heroes and Adam Strange being the main space-peeps. I think it's less cosmic and more sci-fi.
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Sep 1, 2017 19:28
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Scaramouche posted:DC cosmis guys seem more villain of the month/event kind of stuff where they show up, get dealt with, and then aren't heard from. It doesn't feel as integrated as the Marvel cosmic in my mind, which is weird given the green lantern setting but I don't read those so I might be wrong. My totally uneducated opinion is that DC cosmic seems like it was largely developed during a time when space stories would hee more to either invader from Mars stories or boys adventures on alien planet. Marvel's stuff seems like it was developed at a time there was an increased focus on cosmic consciousness hippy crystal and drugs, or at least stuff a bit more akin to 2001. You still have the DC style but there's a current of "whoooaaa maaaaaaaaaaan" during the... 70s? I'm not super familiar with DC from that era but I don't recall the certain tone found in Werewolf by Night or Deadly Hands of Kung Fu.
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Sep 1, 2017 19:39
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I've read definitions repeatedly of what expys are and I'm still not clear what they are, the definition is so broad as to include pretty much everything. If I'm understanding things correctly, some of the best expys off the top of my head include: John Constantine, an expy of Sting Static, an expy of the teenage superhero archetype typified by Spider-Man Darth Vader, an expy of Darkseid Black Racer and the Scarlet Skier, expys of Silver Surfer Homer Simpson, an expy of Walter Matthau Superman, an expy of Philip Wylie's Gladiator and also maybe Jesus Christ Bruce Banner, an expy of Dr Jeckyl Ben Grimm, an expy of Jack Kirby And yeah, Marvel "cosmic" stuff was built on the foundation of weird rear end Kirby/Ditko stuff that didn't get established nearly as much in DC books as in early Marvel, and then was expanded by a bunch of drug-influenced youth in the 1970s. DC has pantheons of mythical gods and 4th dimensional imps and Lords of Chaos and Order but none of them are nearly as black light poster ready as Marvel's.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:19
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Edge & Christian posted:I've read definitions repeatedly of what expys are and I'm still not clear what they are, the definition is so broad as to include pretty much everything. If I'm understanding things correctly, some of the best expys off the top of my head include: An "expy" IMO is specifically a character who is created to be a version of an existing character and it's obvious. John Constantine for example isn't really an "expy" of Sting, he's a character who's visually based on Sting and was a punk musician as a reference to that, but otherwise isn't really like Sting at all. A better example would be the opposite, Willoughby Kipling from Doom Patrol or Jack Carter from Planetary. Hell, Planetary is a good source of expies. They're meant to function as that character and be a reference to them when those characters can't be used for reasons like copyright or editorial nixing it. I think what complicates this is that many expies gain a life of their own. Hyperion started clearly as a cute reference to Superman in a Marvel book and wasn't really intended as more than that, but eventually became far more. Like, X-O Manowar isn't really an expy of Iron Man because despite both having power armor they're radically different characters. Black Racer isn't an expy of the Silver Surfer because he serves a different purpose in the narrative despite them both being "cosmic guy flying around on sporting equipment" Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 20:52
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My favorites are every single one of DCs attempts to make a Spider-Man
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Sep 1, 2017 21:04
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Even though Moon Knight has a lot of Batman going on, I'm not sure I'd call him an expy of Batman the same way Nighthawk is. Like for one thing I think the Batman aspects of his character were added slightly after his original appearance in Werewolf By Night. There's so many goddamn Superman analogues in Marvel that it'd be hard to tally them all. Hyperion(s) Sentry Wundarr the Aquarian Gladiator Sun God Blue Marvel I'm sure I'm forgetting some. And even though Thor is his own character, sometimes they are not very subtle in reminding people he's more or less the Avengers' version of Superman.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:34
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Zachack posted:My totally uneducated opinion is that DC cosmic seems like it was largely developed during a time when space stories would hee more to either invader from Mars stories or boys adventures on alien planet. The odd thing to me is the DC guys just aren't ... present that often. I mean yeah there's the Boys Own adventure kind of characters but they're never referenced or used unless they're specifically addressed by the story. Whereas marvel has the watcher hanging out, people know who Galactus is, even thanos has a kind of top of mind presence.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:36
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Sometimes I think about how ridiculous it is that Marvel and DC earth still operates like ours when they not only have all these superpowered dudes running around but also know there's things like Ego the Living Planet and Darkseid and Galactus out there. It's pretty goofy that neither of those earths have modified their government structures and gotten a seat at some kind of intergalactic united nations. "Oh yeah, intelligent alien civilizations are totally out there, but that's for the Space CIA to worry about, now let me tell you what I think about illegal mexican immigrants"
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Sep 1, 2017 21:41
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Lurdiak posted:Sometimes I think about how ridiculous it is that Marvel and DC earth still operates like ours when they not only have all these superpowered dudes running around but also know there's things like Ego the Living Planet and Darkseid and Galactus out there. It's pretty goofy that neither of those earths have modified their government structures and gotten a seat at some kind of intergalactic united nations. "Oh yeah, intelligent alien civilizations are totally out there, but that's for the Space CIA to worry about, now let me tell you what I think about illegal mexican immigrants" I think the late 90s Marvel crossover Maximum Security explained that the intergalactic community has explicitly shut Earth out, but that might be handwavy.
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Sep 1, 2017 21:53
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Lightning Lord posted:An "expy" IMO is specifically a character who is created to be a version of an existing character and it's obvious. John Constantine for example isn't really an "expy" of Sting, he's a character who's visually based on Sting and was a punk musician as a reference to that, but otherwise isn't really like Sting at all. A better example would be Willoughby Kipling from Doom Patrol. They're meant to function as that character and be a reference to them when those characters can't be used for reasons like copyright or editorial nixing it. I think what complicates this is that many expies gain a life of their own. Hyperion started clearly as a cute reference to Superman in a Marvel book and wasn't really intended as more than that, but eventually became far more. quote:The key difference between this and Captain Ersatz is that an expy, while deliberately based on some other character, is still their own person, while Captain Ersatz is obviously the same character but with the Serial Numbers Filed Off. Please keep this distinction in mind before adding an example here. quote:Also note that a fictional counterpart to a real-life person would not be an expy. quote:Like, X-O Manowar isn't really an expy of Iron Man because despite both having power armor they're radically different characters. Black Racer isn't an expy of the Silver Surfer because he serves a different purpose in the narrative despite them both being "cosmic guy flying around on sporting equipment" Back in the old man yells at clouds aged out of touch bullshit era of the 2000s, people called these "analogues" which is equally vague, or just talked about how characters had similar traits. I'm not against new lingo but I'm still genuinely not sure the standards for these things. It's easy to see how Nighthawk started off as "A Batman", but he stopped being that in a lot of interpretations. Is Night Thrasher a Batman? Midnighter? Moon Knight? Spawn? Big Daddy? Fantomex? Jesus from the Walking Dead?
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Sep 1, 2017 22:01
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TV Tropes is trash, like a Gene pick.
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Sep 1, 2017 22:05
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What about the  (New Avengers #26)
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Sep 1, 2017 22:08
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TV Tropes is transparently desperate to fit every single piece of popular culture detritus into as many of their categories as possible, nobody should take them seriously, ever
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Sep 1, 2017 22:15
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TV Tropes is also the first five hits for expy on Google and I'd never seen the term prior to it coming up on here, does it have roots outside of TV Tropes?
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Sep 1, 2017 22:19
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Does DC ever explain why Earth is such an attractive target for intergalactic invaders and stuff? Maybe it's asking too much for a reasonable explanation of why some alien would come specifically to earth to gently caress it up, given no one really wants to read stories with less at stake because they take place on planets and to cultures entirely fictional instead of in, say, New York City.
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Sep 1, 2017 22:24
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purple death ray posted:TV Tropes is transparently desperate to fit every single piece of popular culture detritus into as many of their categories as possible, nobody should take them seriously, ever I don't know if it still is and can't be bothered to check, but for a long time the word "Hello" was a trope, because they wanted every sentence in the "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." quote to have a link in it. Can you think of any works of fiction which use the "Hello" trope? I'm stumped myself.
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Sep 1, 2017 22:33
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Samuringa posted:What about the And for people who still don't get the reference, 42+9+1=52.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:03
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A Strange Aeon posted:Does DC ever explain why Earth is such an attractive target for intergalactic invaders and stuff? Maybe it's asking too much for a reasonable explanation of why some alien would come specifically to earth to gently caress it up, given no one really wants to read stories with less at stake because they take place on planets and to cultures entirely fictional instead of in, say, New York City. "Goldilocks Orbit" is one reason. Also the meta gene is unique to Earth.
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Sep 2, 2017 00:40
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Skwirl posted:And for people who still don't get the reference, 42+9+1=52. Huh? Instead of saying 52, they put 42 million etc? Why? Related to "expys" (is there a more commonly used word for this? Pastiches, maybe?), I notice no one has brought up The Boys, a potential bonanza of them.
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Sep 2, 2017 00:45
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A Strange Aeon posted:Huh? Instead of saying 52, they put 42 million etc? Why? I don't think straight parodies qualify.
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Sep 2, 2017 00:46
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A Strange Aeon posted:Huh? Instead of saying 52, they put 42 million etc? Why? Jonathan Hickman was being coy it was one of dozens of worlds Reed Richards looked at and every other parallel universe had a Reed Richards analog starting that speech with "Everything Dies." Calm down a bit. Expy is annoying word that I also only heard for the first time today but get over it, it describes something everyone recognizes as existing even if we can't always agree on the exact parameters.
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Sep 2, 2017 00:52
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My favorite expy is Green Arrow, who is Batman.A Strange Aeon posted:Does DC ever explain why Earth is such an attractive target for intergalactic invaders and stuff? Maybe it's asking too much for a reasonable explanation of why some alien would come specifically to earth to gently caress it up, given no one really wants to read stories with less at stake because they take place on planets and to cultures entirely fictional instead of in, say, New York City. One recent explanation was the White Lantern entity is on Earth so it's like a beacon to bad space dudes. Another explanation has been that Earth is uniquely filled with superpowered people (because of the meta gene), so the aliens see it as a challenge.
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Sep 2, 2017 03:06
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I'm partial to Midnighter, and totally recommend Steve Orlando's recent Midnighter and Apollo and Midnighter miniseries. Prometheus makes a great villain for him(though he's dispatched too quickly in the run, he makes a big impact on 'Nighter),and the latter series features Midnighter on a mission to rescue his boyfriend from Neron. It helps that, though he's obviously a Batman expy, he's really not much like Batman at all. He's all impeccable skills and the ability to predict any fight before it starts, because he was horribly abused, experimented on and tortured as a child. Not so much with the wealthy masterminding, he's a 90s grimdarkedgy character all the way, but with a prominent positive lifeline in Apollo that lets the character play a full range of character beats.
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Sep 2, 2017 03:54
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A Strange Aeon posted:Does DC ever explain why Earth is such an attractive target for intergalactic invaders and stuff? Maybe it's asking too much for a reasonable explanation of why some alien would come specifically to earth to gently caress it up, given no one really wants to read stories with less at stake because they take place on planets and to cultures entirely fictional instead of in, say, New York City. I thought it had something to do with Earth being the center of the multiverse or something like that. Also the Extremists (DC) are expies of Marvel villains, and Firestorm is an expy of Spiderman.
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Sep 2, 2017 04:19
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Expy is a dumb term, didn't we already have a term for a DC character who is basically a Marvel character and vice versa? Anyways LOSH/Imperial Guard.
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Sep 2, 2017 04:58
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purple death ray posted:My favorites are every single one of DCs attempts to make a Spider-Man Let's give Superboy a webgun, a jacket, and goggles! It will be radical!
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Sep 2, 2017 06:54
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Sep 2, 2017 07:19
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I feel like maybe I chose my wording poorly here. Ah, well. There's also recursive stuff like Mongul, who is a knockoff Thanos, who is a knockoff Darkseid.Zoro posted:Let's give Superboy a webgun, a jacket, and goggles! It will be radical! That's literally Amalgam Comics Spider-Boy.
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Sep 2, 2017 07:40
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KaosMachina posted:I feel like maybe I chose my wording poorly here. Ah, well. There's also recursive stuff like Mongul, who is a knockoff Thanos, who is a knockoff Darkseid.  Now, I'm just wondering if I subconsciously remembered this or it's just a coincidence.
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Sep 2, 2017 07:43
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KaosMachina posted:I feel like maybe I chose my wording poorly here. Ah, well. There's also recursive stuff like Mongul, who is a knockoff Thanos, who is a knockoff Darkseid. I dunno if you chose your wording poorly but I agree with Rhyno that "expy" is a dumb term and with Wheat Loaf that TVTropes tries to shoehorn everything into their tropes. BTW Thanos was originally planned to be more of a Metron. 
Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Sep 2, 2017 |
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Sep 2, 2017 07:57
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