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YOLOsubmarine posted:Well, I think a lot of them, more broadly, want jobs, and decent ones, like they had when unions existed and overwhelmingly supported democrats, and which no longer exist in part because of centrist Dems selling out unions and workers in favor of the professional class and finance sectors. "we TRIED teaching them to code! They were just too lazy and uninterested" *Shrugs and abandons the working class*
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Oct 24, 2018 20:18
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you could probably get the support of every small town in america if you proposed massive years long public infrastructure campaigns that anyone could sign up to work in. its not like we dont need that anyways
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Oct 24, 2018 20:19
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Stexils posted:you could probably get the support of every small town in america if you proposed massive years long public infrastructure campaigns that anyone could sign up to work in. its not like we dont need that anyways This would interfere with the current plan of selling off public infrastructure to private companies and also doing nothing else.
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Oct 24, 2018 20:20
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Radish posted:Also "go to this school you get a tax break to attend to do something you hate and MAYBE you can get a job if the specific industry comes to your area and the market doesn't become over saturated" is not the same as actually offering jobs. especially when you dont give them the tax break lol (thanks nafta "retraining!")
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Oct 24, 2018 20:21
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I strongly believe you could win every federal election if you just promised a decent green job to everyone who wanted one. People could feel good about fighting climate change and have a dignity of work (which I don't believe in, but a lot of Americans do).
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Oct 24, 2018 20:22
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I strongly believe you could win every federal election if you just promised a decent green job to everyone who wanted one. People could feel good about fighting climate change and have a dignity of work (which I don't believe in, but a lot of Americans do). Eco-friendly shitposting for me, please.
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Oct 24, 2018 20:23
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Kobayashi posted:Eco-friendly shitposting for me, please. Let's take a look at your resume *whistles appreciatively* very nice, this is executive track material
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Oct 24, 2018 20:25
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Khisanth Magus posted:Well, the small town poor and rural voters wouldn't vote for Democrats anyways, because Democrats won't promise to magically bring back factories and coal, and that is all they want to hear. Or maybe they just react positively to that kinda promise because it's literally one of the only things that could improve their lives that's been offered to them in about thirty years or so and the Dems absolutely refuse to offer them anything else they might want?
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Oct 24, 2018 20:39
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Frightening Knight posted:I mean Donald Trump isn’t a fairly elected president, but that has more to do with the Electoral College than the Russian government. Remember when liberals were hanging their hopes on the actual electoral college simply ignoring the results of the vote and just voting for a moderate Republican instead of Trump? And in fact, 2016 had the largest number of faithless electors in over a century, thanks mainly to liberal electors voting for people like Colin Powell and Susan Collins in a fruitless attempt to inspire the GOP electors to go along with their plot to overturn the 2016 election. Liberals laughed when it seemed like Hillary was certain to win and Trump was the one accusing the election of being rigged, but they certainly didn't take their loss with any sort of legitimacy. I mean, sure, the electoral college isn't exactly a fair and equitable system where everyone gets an equal vote. But that doesn't mean Trump's win (and Dems' loss) is any less legitimate than every other president. Hell, it's at least definitely more legitimate than Bush v Gore, and liberals didn't declare Bush illegitimate and call for him to be impeached or otherwise removed. Kraftwerk posted:So how do you win hearts and minds? Most of the time, they're not all that well-off themselves. Instead of calling for them to look down, get them to look up and realize that the wealthy overlords who earn more in a second than they do in a month never did a damned thing to earn that money. Draw their attention away from the idea that they earned their benefits - but instead of drawing it straight to privilege, ask why their boss and their boss's boss are the ones who get to decide what they've "earned". Instead of pitting them against those poorer than themselves, point out that poor people of all colors are on the same side: being ground beneath the feet of the wealthy elite failsons who inherited every opportunity they've ever had.
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Oct 24, 2018 20:46
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Main Paineframe posted:Remember when liberals were hanging their hopes on the actual electoral college simply ignoring the results of the vote and just voting for a moderate Republican instead of Trump? And in fact, 2016 had the largest number of faithless electors in over a century, thanks mainly to liberal electors voting for people like Colin Powell and Susan Collins in a fruitless attempt to inspire the GOP electors to go along with their plot to overturn the 2016 election. I don’t disagree but I also think this implies we should be calling more American presidents and governments illegitimate, not that Trump is more legitimate.
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Oct 24, 2018 20:58
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Main Paineframe posted:I mean, sure, the electoral college isn't exactly a fair and equitable system where everyone gets an equal vote. But that doesn't mean Trump's win (and Dems' loss) is any less legitimate than every other president. Hell, it's at least definitely more legitimate than Bush v Gore, and liberals didn't declare Bush illegitimate and call for him to be impeached or otherwise removed.
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Oct 24, 2018 21:06
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Khisanth Magus posted:Well, the small town poor and rural voters wouldn't vote for Democrats anyways, because Democrats won't promise to magically bring back factories and coal, and that is all they want to hear. Democrats won't promise to magically bring back jobs, but they would easily get support if they bothered to guarantee to bring back jobs  Of course that would piss off donors and end the gravy train, so better to appeal to affluent professionals by reassuring them that jobs are racist and joblessness is a moral failing
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Oct 24, 2018 21:51
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Frightening Knight posted:I don’t disagree but I also think this implies we should be calling more American presidents and governments illegitimate, not that Trump is more legitimate. Agreed...and that's why it's so silly to be handwringing about how mean old Trump light delegitimize the next election and how he just doesn't have the decorum to gracefully accept defeat the way Dems did. That was what I was lashing out against.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:04
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Main Paineframe posted:Agreed...and that's why it's so silly to be handwringing about how mean old Trump light delegitimize the next election and how he just doesn't have the decorum to gracefully accept defeat the way Dems did. That was what I was lashing out against. Fair.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:07
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Stexils posted:you could probably get the support of every small town in america if you proposed massive years long public infrastructure campaigns that anyone could sign up to work in. its not like we dont need that anyways I swear there was a period where the gestalt leftist opinion hereabouts was that UBI was Good and a guaranteed jobs program was Bad, but it seems to have switched at some point. which i basically support, don't get me wrong
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Oct 24, 2018 22:10
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I swear there was a period where the gestalt leftist opinion hereabouts was that UBI was Good and a guaranteed jobs program was Bad, but it seems to have switched at some point. there's still leftists that think UBI is a good idea i've been for a jobs program for a long time though
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Oct 24, 2018 22:15
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I swear there was a period where the gestalt leftist opinion hereabouts was that UBI was Good and a guaranteed jobs program was Bad, but it seems to have switched at some point. I think AOC's support for a jobs program made everyone switch over Lots of people can't work though or are working doing things like caring for relatives or children and they deserve payment also
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Oct 24, 2018 22:18
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I swear there was a period where the gestalt leftist opinion hereabouts was that UBI was Good and a guaranteed jobs program was Bad, but it seems to have switched at some point. i don't think the government should have a permanent jobs guarantee, but in the short term a large infrastructure program that put people to work while providing much needed rebuilding is a good interim step i don't support a permanent jobs guarantee because we're past the stage of society where most people need to work. most jobs are bullshit jobs and are not necessary and a permanent jobs program sidesteps this issue.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:18
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I swear there was a period where the gestalt leftist opinion hereabouts was that UBI was Good and a guaranteed jobs program was Bad, but it seems to have switched at some point. I think they're both good but that a jobs program will be more effective, easier to implement and harder to gently caress over by bad faith actors.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:20
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Stexils posted:i don't think the government should have a permanent jobs guarantee, but in the short term a large infrastructure program that put people to work while providing much needed rebuilding is a good interim step see, this is where i disagree. most jobs are bullshit jobs cause work in the USA is geared towards servicing an increasingly idiotic plutocracy. I believe that if we can get work in the USA to serve the people, that new jobs will come about that are actually worthwhile and a more beneficial to society. hell, we need more researchers, artists, musicians, etc. already poo poo like people delivering for uber eats or working for task rabbit is not because we've surpassed the stage of society where the jobs they replaced were necessary. rather, our society has degraded. i think if we can manage to fix it, we'll have better jobs Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Oct 24, 2018 |
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Oct 24, 2018 22:34
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i think if you want meaningful jobs for people you should make it so people are not reliant on jobs to survive and jobs are optional. otherwise its easy to end up in a situation where the guaranteed job is poo poo or useless but people dont have any real options.
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Oct 24, 2018 22:50
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Stexils posted:i think if you want meaningful jobs for people you should make it so people are not reliant on jobs to survive and jobs are optional. otherwise its easy to end up in a situation where the guaranteed job is poo poo or useless but people dont have any real options. you can have a system where jobs are optional and still have a jobs guarantee that provides full employment
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Oct 24, 2018 23:02
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i guess, but if people don't need to have a job it seems kind of superfluous to have a jobs guarantee
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Oct 24, 2018 23:04
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Stexils posted:i guess, but if people don't need to have a job it seems kind of superfluous to have a jobs guarantee If people want more of society's resources beyond vegetarian meals and a small apartment with television/internet/computer and a bike they should be guaranteed the opportunity to get it.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:09
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Stexils posted:i guess, but if people don't need to have a job it seems kind of superfluous to have a jobs guarantee nah. jobs being optional doesn't necessarily mean they're plentiful. the point of a jobs guarantee in such a situation is to try to make sure that full employment is reached Megaman's Jockstrap posted:If people want more of society's resources beyond vegetarian meals and a small apartment with television/internet/computer and a bike they should be guaranteed the opportunity to get it. this is another thing. jobs being optional doesn't mean there would be no benefits or advantages to having a job or working.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:09
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I swear there was a period where the gestalt leftist opinion hereabouts was that UBI was Good and a guaranteed jobs program was Bad, but it seems to have switched at some point. Of course, a jobs guarantee doesn't do much to take power back, either, but come to think of it I don't often see the two compared the way you're implying anyway. Why did you bring this up? At any rate, the problem is that billionaires exist, and neither UBI nor a jobs guarantee address that. That doesn't make them bad ideas, it just means that you're probably not going to have a lot of leftists arguing for them like they're going to solve all our problems.
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Oct 25, 2018 01:04
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Kilroy posted:Of course, a jobs guarantee doesn't do much to take power back, either, but come to think of it I don't often see the two compared the way you're implying anyway. Why did you bring this up? He’s not making it up, there was a series of articles in Jacobin a few months back (possibly last year) arguing for and against each policy and contrasting the two, on both strategic and philosophical grounds. There’s definitely strains of thought that argue the two are in some ways opposed from the left. I have no strong opinion other than that nobody should be poor, homeless, or hungry, no matter if they work or not.
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Oct 25, 2018 01:06
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I mean I could see a sort of "job guarantee" concept within the context of a socialist economy but it would look a lot different than what people are usually talking about when they say "job guarantee" i.e. you wouldn't be working for the government. That doesn't solve the problem of capitalists either: it assumes we already solved it.
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Oct 25, 2018 01:08
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Frightening Knight posted:He’s not making it up, there was a series of articles in Jacobin a few months back (possibly last year) arguing for and against each policy and contrasting the two, on both strategic and philosophical grounds. There’s definitely strains of thought that argue the two are in some ways opposed from the left.  If you have examples of leftists actually arguing against these things, rather than just sort of nodding along, by all means...
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Oct 25, 2018 01:12
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Kilroy posted:If you have examples of leftists actually arguing against these things, rather than just sort of nodding along, by all means... I’m phone posting but the thrust of the arguments wasn’t dissimilar from what has been mentioned. Pro-UBI writers pointed out that we could easily construct a society where people don’t have to work much if at all right now if there was political motivation to, while pro-job guarantee people argued that people need to feel buy in to the system and have purpose in life and would reject a UBI system, and that such a system would be politically vulnerable. There was also discussion of the UBI as a trap bait and switch to take public services away. My take away was that a job guarantee would be better policy in the short term but I will look and see if I can find those articles when I get home.
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Oct 25, 2018 01:15
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If you're going to advocate for a jobs program, you're going to need to be a lot more specific about what jobs somebody can do that the private sector can't afford and that automation won't do better in the next 15 years.
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Oct 25, 2018 05:12
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There's tons of work this country needs done that the private sector won't do because there's little or no profit for blood sucking capitalists to get out of it. Like rebuilding our national infrastructure and decarbonizing our energy production.
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Oct 25, 2018 05:21
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Freakazoid_ posted:If you're going to advocate for a jobs program, you're going to need to be a lot more specific about what jobs somebody can do that the private sector can't afford and that automation won't do better in the next 15 years.
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Oct 25, 2018 05:24
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Ok, I'm home now. Here are two different articles in Jacobin: Just What Is a Job Guarantee? by Matt Bruenig. And UBI, the Unknown Ideal by Max B. Sawicky (It's worth contextualizing that the Bruenig piece is responding to a different piece in Jacobin, also by Sawicky, about a job guarantee and Bernie, if you want more reading. There are many articles on these two subjects in Jacobin, positive and negative) Both of these present thought provoking left-wing criticisms of their respective subjects (in my estimation) that I think are worth at least considering, even if you don't ultimately agree. I don't think this means that the two ideas are mutually exclusive per se, just that the issue is complicated and interesting as a matter of public policy. Edit: cc Kilroy Lightning Knight fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 05:37
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Thanatosian posted:Legislate a 28-hour work week.
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Oct 25, 2018 05:45
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Frightening Knight posted:Ok, I'm home now. For the first my only criticism would be that he seems to be arguing against a strawman, but then again he sort of alludes to the fact anyway so maybe that's the point. The UBI article makes some good points as well but then the author also reveals himself as one of these "automation doesn't destroy jobs, it creates more work!" which is disappointing. The authors expect too much of UBI and a jobs guarantee, IMO. Any "leftist" proposal meant to be instituted under a capitalist regime should always be viewed merely as triage. Of course you can find faults with both of them, especially a jobs guarantee, because both of them live under a fundamentally stupid method of human organization (at least as discussed here - it'd be interesting to read some pieces on implementing UBI and a jobs guarantee in a democratic-socialist economy). Kilroy fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Oct 25, 2018 |
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Oct 25, 2018 06:10
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Putting as many people to work as possible on carbon capture technologies would be a pretty dope starting point. Kind of the ultimate two birds thing there, employment and progress towards not committing omnicide of the entire planet.
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Oct 25, 2018 13:20
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I’m not sure I trust anyone to execute a job guarantee properly. It’s more likely to be like what they do in Germany where a govt official threatens to revoke your unemployment benefits if you don’t accept a job as a floor cleaner on the night shift at a tire factory. Even though your credentials could get you something better.
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Oct 25, 2018 13:52
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Kraftwerk posted:I’m not sure I trust anyone to execute a job guarantee properly. I'm pretty sure that's already what the US does now. https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/work-requirements-dont-cut-poverty-evidence-shows
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Oct 25, 2018 13:55
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Gimme reliable transport and I'd probably be down for a night shift floor cleaner job, my sleeping schedule is hosed as it is.
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Oct 25, 2018 15:26
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