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Update will come tomorrow, hope you are enjoying your weekend!
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Sep 16, 2017 21:02
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| # ? May 3, 2024 11:59 |
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Black has 24 hours to make a move. What do you think is the opponent's best move, and what is your best counter to that move? Sorry about the late update - I can't promise I'll always be able to update on schedule during the weekends, but I'll do my best! On a similar note - I've been noticing a number of players haven't been posting regularly lately. I hope this is because you are busy with more important things than playing chess on the internet (which is totally fine!) and not because you feel you have nothing to add or don't understand what's going on. If it's the latter, speak up and we'll do our best to help you out! 
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Sep 17, 2017 17:14
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Can it be a mixture of all three? I was pretty busy yesterday but also all the discussion here so far has gone way over my head, and no amount of tutorials and effortposts is helping because I'm an extremely tactile learner -- it won't sink in unless I do it myself and I don't have anyone to practice with.
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Sep 17, 2017 17:24
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Faerie Fortune posted:Can it be a mixture of all three? I was pretty busy yesterday but also all the discussion here so far has gone way over my head, and no amount of tutorials and effortposts is helping because I'm an extremely tactile learner -- it won't sink in unless I do it myself and I don't have anyone to practice with.  I had difficulties during the last game because I'm also very tactile when it comes to chess. Worse, I don't currently own a chess board. When I have had them, however, I've found it helpful to lay out the positions, play potential moves, and then walk to the other side of the board to play with responses to those moves. If you have a chess board, that may be helpful.
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Sep 17, 2017 17:45
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I unfortunately do not  I own Tabletop Simulator on steam though and keep trying to convince my girlfriend to help me learn with it but teaching newbie chess takes a lot of energy and she hasn't been up for it lately
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Sep 17, 2017 18:00
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It could also be that people don't feel like their input/votes are extremely necessary at the start of the game. Hopefully we'll get more participation soon, especially with this check we just made.
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Sep 17, 2017 18:03
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Unless I'm reading this wrong, I can only see four moves it's even possible for Black to make at this point: Nb8-c6, Nb8-d7, Bc8-d7 and Qd8-d7. Of those Qd8-d7 is absolutely the worst, since it leaves their queen open to be taken by our bishop on our next turn. Nb8-c6 is also pretty bad because we can take their knight on the next turn and black will be in the same situation as before but with only two options. Personally I would prefer Bc8-d7, but I'm really not sure which would be the objectively better option here.
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Sep 17, 2017 18:06
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Epicmissingno posted:Nb8-c6 is also pretty bad because we can take their knight on the next turn and black will be in the same situation as before but with only two options. Taking their knight in this case would be bad for us considering they would immediately follow with b7xc6, eliminating our bishop from the game. edit: I hope that was the right notation for "their pitchfork-wielding peasant will stab our holy man to death" The Mighty Moltres fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Sep 17, 2017 |
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Sep 17, 2017 18:47
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Since there's a check involved, this can be described pretty succinctly. Black's only possible responses are: 1.) Block check with the queen (Qd8-d7). This is obviously dumb since we'd gladly trade our bishop for the Queen. They won't do this. 2.) Block with the knight (Nb8 to either d7 or c6). Either of these stops the check and pins their knight for a while, but doesn't actively threaten our bishop. We could respond to this by taking our knight in trade for the bishop, but I don't see any particular reason to do so since our bishop isn't in immediate danger. So instead we should probably respond with something else - moving up something (pawns? knight?) to support the attack perhaps? 3.) Bc8-d7 - I think this is probably the best option for them since it stops the check and also threatens our bishop. Our response to this could either be to trade bishops OR move a piece to defend the bishop (Nb3-c5 or moving either the a or c pawns forward two spaces). The knight seems to be the best response to me since the trade seems kinda pointless (it's even by piece values, but our bishop is actually doing something productive while theirs isn't) and moving the pawns limits our bishop's maneuverability. MagusofStars fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Sep 17, 2017 |
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Sep 17, 2017 20:12
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MagusofStars posted:Since there's a check involved, this can be described pretty succinctly. Black's only possible responses are: Agree with this, but think that c2-c4 is a strong move because it both defends the bishop and pressures the e5 square.
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Sep 17, 2017 20:26
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Nah, I was busy on the weekend, which is kinda surprising for a guy who plays team chess on dead comedy forums. We can probably expect the bishop block, at which point I'm a bit leery of our options. Bishop trade actually gets their queen into play a little, but advancing the pawn or knight and getting them to initiate the trade seems nicer. I'll take a closer look at our options when I can mess with Lichess. Anyway I hope people aren't being wigged out by how me and Yorkshire are discussing this. I suppose I've pretty well internalized how pieces move, but I think the depth of our strategy is mostly in generalities. The introductory posts by Condiv are really good resources! I suppose thinking of chess pieces not as little units but in their broader uses as pressure, blockers, or flankers is activating my Advance Wars brain muscles
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Sep 17, 2017 21:15
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Oh man, I completely forgot about this, team! I'm here now though. I'll read through the thread so I can get up to speed.
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Sep 17, 2017 21:22
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MagusofStars posted:3.) Bc8-d7 - I think this is probably the best option for them since it stops the check and also threatens our bishop. Our response to this could either be to trade bishops OR move a piece to defend the bishop (Nb3-c5 or moving either the a or c pawns forward two spaces). The knight seems to be the best response to me since the trade seems kinda pointless (it's even by piece values, but our bishop is actually doing something productive while theirs isn't) and moving the pawns limits our bishop's maneuverability. Which piece are you talking about there? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding or if that was a typo. I'm on board with c2-c4 if they pull out the bishop. I feel like that's as solid a move as we have in that scenario. What's our plan if they move the knight? Move our queen-side knight to cover more ground?
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Sep 17, 2017 22:11
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Another point about learning to chess: Chess is both a very hard game to learn just by playing as well as just by reading. My suggestion would be to put the ideas covered during this thread to use by playing as much as possible, preferably against human players (though an AI will do fine in a pinch) - even if you lose you can learn a lot as long as you have some theoretical understanding of why you lost and what you can do better. Hopefully this thread can provide the theoretical base, which let's you get an understanding of practical play and vice versa: Playing will help you internalise all the words, which will help you play better, which will help you internalise all the words and so on. I'm totally willing to give a few pointers if any of you want to play me via Chess by Post (as outlined in the OP- I'm "covski" on the app as well) As a side note: When suggesting moves, I'd suggest you also spend a little time discussing the pros and cons of the second best alternative to your favoured move - not only in order to perform better in this particular game, but also as a good learning exercise!
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Sep 17, 2017 22:14
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LambdaZero posted:Which piece are you talking about there? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding or if that was a typo.
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Sep 17, 2017 22:27
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Nb8-c6 seems to be a good move for them. It gives them the most offensive coverage while leaving their bishop free to threaten the entire diagonal. The downside for them is that they cannot move the knight for now without making an unproductive move, so that suggests that d2-d4 might be a good followup move on our end. We can force a pawn exchange that will let us make our right knight more threatening. Moving our knight will open up the right side of the board for our left bishop and queen to run wild as well. Edit: Looks like d4 would leave us open to a check via Qd8-a5+, but we could just castle out of that. Won't stop the bishop from getting eaten though. Decoy Badger fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 14:30
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Important rules reminder: You cannot castle when your king is in check.
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Sep 18, 2017 15:24
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Decoy Badger posted:Nb8-c6 seems to be a good move for them. It gives them the most offensive coverage while leaving their bishop free to threaten the entire diagonal. The downside for them is that they cannot move the knight for now without making an unproductive move, so that suggests that d2-d4 might be a good followup move on our end. We can force a pawn exchange that will let us make our right knight more threatening. Moving our knight will open up the right side of the board for our left bishop and queen to run wild as well. You can't castle out of check unfortunately. Which is why I'd suggest going straight to the castle move if they choose to play Nb8_Nc6
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Sep 18, 2017 15:33
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Sorry I haven't been active! I had a busy weekend. I'll post my thoughts when I get a moment at work.
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Sep 18, 2017 15:38
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 You have 24 hours to decide on a move. Note that the knight on c6 is pinned to the black king and can't legally move.
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Sep 18, 2017 17:52
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... huh I had convinced myself they'd go with the bishop block.
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Sep 18, 2017 17:56
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The movement of knights means that they can't take our bishop, and if we take their knight we'll get our bishop taken in turn by a pawn, so that part of the board is pretty much just a stalemate right now. I think this is a good time to build up some more, although I can't think how would be best to do so. Perhaps move our other knight out with, say, Nb1-c3? I have no idea how effective that would be, though. We've also got options in moving pawns up, of course, and I kind of like the idea of Pc2-c4 to free up our queen's movement some more for when we eventually move it out.
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Sep 18, 2017 18:07
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Well we prepped a plan for what we thought was their best response. Honestly, to me this is the first misplay from black. The Knight achieves very little, since it's not threatening anything without another turn from black. Whatever we do, if they want to free the knight they either have to play Bc8-Bd7, a7-a6 or qd8-qa5. In either case we make a trade because we've had a turn of free development. We have a lot of good options for that now. d2-d4 is bad because as decoy badger pointed out, that path loses us a bishop. d4, qa5+, anything, qxb5. We can take a kingside castle and remove the threat of their queen sweeping down and also get our rook into play. In theory we can still play c2-c4, that means we're very likely to hold d5. Lots of choice, I'll have a video tonight.
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Sep 18, 2017 18:32
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Could someone possibly explain castling again with diagrams? I'm afraid I don't really get how it works.
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Sep 18, 2017 18:39
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Hang on, found something with d2-d4. IF (and it's only if) black goes for the cheeky counter-check with their queen... We can respond with Nb1-c3, which will cover our bishop and move up our other knight. I mean, that queen will still have a couple options, but if they go for our Bishop we can take the queen in return.  Okay, but what else does d2-d4 do for us? Lets say the respond with proletariat violence, pawn going c5xd4, then we can take the pawn back with Nf3xd4, which reinforces our bishop pinning the knight and puts that knight in a very commanding position in the middle of the board.  Not seeing a lot of other interesting options for them. e7-e5? Then if we respond with c2-c3 it can lead into a bunch of pawn trades that I think ends with Nf3xd4 again, same thing just lest pawns in the way.  So you know what? I'm putting d2-d4 into the ring. M.c.P fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 20:46
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I am leaning towards d2-d4 right now. d2-d4 lets us move out another bishop and queen but them moving Qd8-c5+ will eventually undo a lot of the progress on the left side of the board via killing the bishop. If they go bc8-f5 or -g4 in response instead of moving the queen, I guess we can counter with Qd1-d3 which lets us put even heavier pressure on the left side. If they go a7-a6 in response then the bishop-knight trade is forced and they're left in about the same position. c2-c4 boxes our queen in and does nothing for the dark square bishop but protects the light square bishop against any royal depredations. After that, I don't see what else it does for us. It preserves the stalemate on the left but impedes a lot of movement. Castling seems to just waste the advantage we've gained so far while still leaving the bishop unsupported. I don't think we have enough open files to make moving the rook worthwhile for now. Decoy Badger fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 21:32
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Epicmissingno posted:Could someone possibly explain castling again with diagrams? I'm afraid I don't really get how it works. Let's explain castling!Castling is a special move that makes the king and a rook both move at the same time. It can only be done under some circumstances, but first let's cover what it does. There are two forms of castling: kingside and queenside. In kingside, the king and the rook on the king's side are used.  The king moves two spaces towards the rook.  Then the rook move one space past the king.  Leading to this final position.  Queenside is similar, except the rook on the queen's side is used.  The king moves two spaces towards the rook.  Then the rook moves two spaces past the king.  Leading to this final position. Notice how the king and rook are more towards the center than with kingside castling.  So when can you castle? Well, first, you cannot do so if either the king or the rook being used have moved. Second, you cannot if there are any pieces between the king and the rook.  Third, the king cannot be in check (though the rook can be in risk of capture).  Fourth, the king cannot move through any space where it would be in check (the rook can do so, though).  Fifth, the king cannot move into check (as always). 
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Sep 18, 2017 22:17
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idhrendur posted:
idhrendur fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Sep 18, 2017 |
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Sep 18, 2017 22:47
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guOYTxgJ_OY My analysis that's uploading. I think that 0-0 is probably the safest line to play for us at the moment.
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Sep 19, 2017 00:07
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I can't watch the video right now, but I also agree with 0-0 (the Kingside castle). I did some It's not applicable to this game right now, but I definitely learned something: watch out for the diagonals you open when advancing pawns!
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Sep 19, 2017 00:15
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Phone posting for now, I'll take a better look (and watch the video) when I get home tonight. I'm leaning away from 0-0 because it feels like we're giving up the advantage we just gained from their suboptimal move. There's no danger that I can sense at least in the next couple moves. The other thing castling does is push our rook toward the front lines, but it's not an open enough game for it right now. I just don't see what we gain. Does anyone disagree? Is castling the right move when we might not need to?
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Sep 19, 2017 01:12
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LambdaZero posted:Phone posting for now, I'll take a better look (and watch the video) when I get home tonight. I'm leaning this way as well. I haven't watched the video yet (was still showing unavailable for me a little but ago), but I think castling is the wrong move presently.
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Sep 19, 2017 01:29
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Yorkshire, your video is borked. Still says it's unavailable. I've taken some time to look at the board, and I honestly don't see a whole lot of interesting moves. I definitely agree that 0-0 is the safest move we have, but not by much. No matter what we do, Bc8-g4 is a problem. Even if they don't take the knight, they pin it to the queen until we can deal with it, and it will hurt our king-side pawn structure. If they go that way, our best move is probably to dare them to take the knight and retake with our queen in retaliation. I'm jumping on the d2-d4 train based on M.c.P.'s analysis. I don't think castling solves any problems or gains us any ground. Last game, remember, black castled when they shouldn't have and it snowballed on them. D4, meanwhile, gets us closer to controlling the center. I'm gonna check to see if Yorkshire's video is working in the morning or if someone has posted in defense of 0-0. I reserve the right to change my mind, but for now vote is d2-d4.
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Sep 19, 2017 03:24
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Jumping on the d2-d4 train for the reasons laid out by McP and Decoy.
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Sep 19, 2017 03:32
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Whoah wait hang on don't listen to me just yet I'm just postulating dumbly lemme watch that Yorkshire video. Edit: oh, it's broken. I mean d2-d4 seems alright, just wondering if I missed something
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Sep 19, 2017 04:35
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It's working now!
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Sep 19, 2017 08:19
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LambdaZero posted:Phone posting for now, I'll take a better look (and watch the video) when I get home tonight. Tldr for my video. d2-d4 is fine, but there's an odd line where they refuse to accept the trade, c5-xd4 trade. If that happens I really don't like our positioning. The important thing to note is d2-d4 is coming, but what we're worried about is the position of our pieces when it does. The line from O-O runs bd7, Re1 and leaves them to move where I suspect they either run a6, to scare our bishop off or Nf6. In case 1, we run Bxe7, kill the knight, lose our bishop and the play D2-d4 after we've forced them into an awful pawn structure. In case 2, we play d2-d4 immediately and win the exchange that we force due to our superiority on both d4 and e4.
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Sep 19, 2017 08:38
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How often do they not take the gambit though? I'm willing to risk d2-d4.
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Sep 19, 2017 12:39
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Voting for d2-d4
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Sep 19, 2017 13:13
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| # ? May 3, 2024 11:59 |
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The Mighty Moltres posted:Voting for d2-d4 Me too. Opens our bishop lines, and fights for centre. Black seem like they're setting up their middle with that block. Sure they can't move the knight the very next turn but one bishop, queen or pawn move from them and we won't have the pin anymore.
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Sep 19, 2017 13:42
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