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Covski
Jun 24, 2007

Bringing the forums together with the greatest thread!
Welcome, team black!

The players are:

Aces High
anakha
Flame
Frionnel
HardDiskD
Ibblebibble
Junpei Hyde
LupusAter
Mraagvpeine
Odysseus S. Grant
Snorb
Talow

Rules:

The teams will choose their move based on a simple vote - Note that this means that explaining to your team mates why your suggested move is the best is just as important as coming up with it in the first place!

Teams will have 24 hours to decide on their move, though I will call the vote early if one move gains a clear majority. (I will generally allow for longer voting times than I did in the previous game however)

Please use long algebraic notation for your moves.

I'd also prefer if as much team communication as possible is kept in the threads, both for the benefit of the observer thread and to make it easier for new players to follow the lines of thinking without having to use external sites. Lichess links are good though.

Players aren't allowed to read the observer thread or the opposing team's thread, observers aren't allowed to post in the team threads.

No use of chess engines to find moves is allowed, this includes playing either side of the position against the computer.

To ensure that both teams have an equal playing field, the only allowed sources for openings etcetera are Wikipedia and chess.com. However, reading up on standard openings is encouraged as a good way to learn.

Absolutely no super villainy allowed.

Regarding mentors:

The mentors who will be posting in the thread are idhrendur, oldskool and Dr. Fetus. Please add a :eng101: to the beginning of any posts in the team threads to separate you from players.

The mentors and myself will be available in the team threads to answer any questions and provide advice. To start off with, I will consider any questions that are not asking for specific move suggestions fair game. All post by mentors that are longer than simple "yes" or "no" answers should be crossposted to both threads. If mentors consider any questions a grey area, just check with me via pm or on Discord.


Want more chess?
If this thread doesn't provide enough chess in your life, I highly recommend you check out the free app Chess by Post! (Microsoft Store , Google Play, App Store)

It features both ranked matchmade games against random players at the same skill level, and unranked games with friends with full compatibility across all devices. It also has a very handy move planner, which probably is the main thing saving me from constantly blundering. It also has an extremely merciful time limit for games, which is nice.

Usernames of thread goons using the app (just let me know if you want to be added to this list!):

covski
idhrendur
excloudygh
circlmastr
fatsamurai
HisMajestyBOB
Livewire42
Leylite
Raldan
CascadeBeta
oath2order
TheMightyMoltres
schnibs
herpicle
alphakretin
cxp
moooo566

Covski fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Sep 20, 2017

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Covski
Jun 24, 2007

Bringing the forums together with the greatest thread!

Covski posted:

Basics of chess: The pieces

This post covers the movements of the pieces and any special rules regarding them. I've also added the idea of "personalities" I covered in the beginning of the thread which I find is a useful approach to basic chess strategy as a beginner - if a piece is in the spot it "wants" to be in according to its personality, it's usually decently strategically placed.
Basics of chess: The pieces

Pawns:



Even though pawns are the individually least valuable pieces they are arguably one of the most important ones, and by far the piece with the most special rules attached to them.

Usually, pawns can move one square forward. (It's important to note that unlike all other pieces, pawn moves are permanent in that they cannot move backwards) However, the first time a pawn moves off their starting rank, they may choose to advance two squares instead.

Pawns are also the only piece that captures in a way that is different from their normal move - diagonally in the direction they are able to advance.

The humble pawn have a potentially game winning superpower: Promotion. If a pawn manages to reach the very opposite side of the board, it can be exchanged for any other kind of piece except for a king. In almost all cases you will want to promote the pawn to a queen, except in a few extremely specific situations.



If this wasn't enough, pawns also have an obscure counter-move to the two square advance mentioned earlier. On the following move only, an opposing pawn in the appropriate spot can capture as if the advancing pawn had only moved one square: This is known as "en passant." This weird little rule (which comes up way too seldom in my opinion) was added at the same time as the two-square move was introduced, and I like to think of it as a sort of day-1 nerf after a major balance patch.

Sidenotes and personality:

Likes: Working together with other pawns, punching above his weight, reaching the edge of the board and being promoted
Dislikes: Being alone
General ideas: Pawns should usually as far as possible, be kept in "pawn chains" with their brethren - an isolated pawn is usually a weakness. However, promoting pawns by reaching the edge of the board is often a winning move in the late game.

Knights:



Knights have an odd movement pattern that might take some get used to. It is unique in that it is the only piece that can jump over other pieces, but its movement pattern also means that it has a deceptively hard time reaching some squares close to it.

Sidenotes and personality:

Value: 3 pawns (roughly, depends on the state of the board)
Likes: Being in the middle of the action, forking things
Dislikes: Being on the rim (it makes him grim), being hassled by pawns
General ideas: Knights are most effective in the centre of the board where they can attack/protect the maximum amount of squares, preferably in a spot where they cannot be threatened by opposing pawns.

Bishops:



Bishops are long range pieces that move and attack along diagonals. Since they can only move to squares of the same colour that they start on, they are often referred to as white-square or dark-square bishops.

Sidenotes and personality:

Value: 3+ pawns (roughly, depends on the state of the board)
Likes: Hiding behind pawns on open diagonals, attacking things at long range
Dislikes: Anything on the wrong coloured square
General ideas: Bishops do very well as a long range threat, but can also be useless in situations where most enemy pieces are on different coloured squares.

Rooks:



Rooks are another long range piece - it is a lot more flexible than the bishop, but its starting position usually means that it won't come into play until a bit later in the game.

Sidenotes and personality:

Value: 5 pawns
Likes: Sitting on open files, protecting passed pawns, consuming enemy pawns on their home ranks, castling
Dislikes: Going to work, diagonals
General ideas: Rooks are very strong, but usually don't come into play until the mid game. They're great both at protecting things in front of them as well as being a powerful threat on any open file. When possible, they should usually have an open line to the other rook.

Queens:



The queen is the most powerful piece on the board, its movement pattern being a combination of the rook and the bishop.

Sidenotes and personality:

Value: 8-9 pawns
Likes: Being important, mating, making glorious game winning sacrifices
Dislikes: Protecting pawns, moving out too early
General ideas: The queen is by far the most important piece on the board besides the king, and should not be wasted protecting non-critical pieces. Her high value is also her main weakness: You can usually not afford to trade away your queen unless it is in exchange for your opponent's, or if it is guaranteed to win you the game.

Kings:



The king is the most important piece, as it's safety is paramount to not losing the game. However, an active king can become a very powerful tool in the late game.

Its main restriction is that the king is never allowed to move into check.



The king has a special move in combination with the rook: Castling. As long as neither the king or the rook has moved, and there are no pieces between them, you castle by moving the king two squares towards the rook and the rook to the square on the other side next to the king. Note that you cannot castle if your king is in check, nor if the king would have to move through check to perform the castling.

Sidenotes and personality:

Value: INFINITY
Likes: Being safe, saving the kingdom in its hour of greatest need.
Dislikes: Being unsafe, being placed in check
General ideas: In the early and middle game, king safety is one of the absolute highest priorities. However, the king becomes a very strong piece in his own right in the late game, and is critical to many late game mating positions.

Checking:



When your king is placed in check, you must immediately remove the check on your next turn, either by moving the king out of check, blocking the check with another piece, or by capturing the checking piece. If you have no legal way to move out of the check, you lose the game.

In the above position, the black king can escape the check either by blocking with the knight, or moving the king out of the check by moving behind the white knight. Note that the king cannot capture the white knight, as it is illegal to move the king into the check. In this example, the white king would have been mated if it had been on any square on the a-file.

Covski posted:

Algebraic notation



Notation isn't very fun and can be a bit bothersome getting used to but it is a necessary evil for discussion chess moves, especially in an online format such as this.

Each square on the chessboard is identified by a coordinate system. The vertical columns (files) are labelled, a-h, the horisontal rows (ranks) are labelled 1-8.

For the newbie game, we will be using long algebraic notation. Each move is denoted by the letter of the piece (K for king, Q for queen, R for rook, B for bishop, N for knight, pawns don't get a letter), the initial square, and the square that they move to. For example: Bd2-f4 denotes that the bishop on d2 moves to the square f4.

If a capture is made, this is denoted by an x instead of a -. For example: Bd2xf4 denotes the bishop on d2 moving to square f4 and capturing.

A check is denoted by a +, and checkmate by #. Castling is indicated by 0-0 (kingside) or 0-0-0 (queenside). Promotions are indicated by adding the letter of the piece the pawn promotes to. (for example, h7-h8Q)

Covski posted:

Basic opening ideas:

Since the game is starting soon, time to go over some thoughts on what it is you want to achieve in the opening of the game.

But first, let's mention the idea of tempo. Tempo (Italian for "time") basically means the amount of productive moves you have been allowed to make compared to you opponent, and can be thought of as the hidden resource of chess. Any time you do a passive move or use more moves than necessary to accomplish something, you are said to lose a tempo. Contrarily, you can win a tempo by forcing your opponent to do a passive or unproductive move. White, always going first, starts with a tempo. This is the reason that playing as white is considered an advantage, amounting to a few percent higher win rate in high level games.



The two main priorities in the opening is achieving some amount of control of the centre of the board, and developing your pieces as effectively as possible.

The four squares in the middle of the board (d4, d5, e4, e5) are crucial since control of these squares limit your opponent's ability to develop his pieces and stage attacks. Historically, the main way to control the centre was to occupy it directly with supported pawns, while the defining characteristic of modern chess is the idea of indirectly contesting the centre with long range pieces, most commonly bishops. Which of these methods is superior is largely a question of personal preference and style.

In the above position (known as the King's Indian Attack, for the record) white stakes a claim to the centre with his king pawn, which attacks the d5 and f5 squares. The knight supports the attack on d5, while at the same time protecting the centre pawn.

Black, on the other hand, attacks the d4 and e5 squares with his bishop while at the same time threatening a future exchange of pieces with the white knight. As an aside, this way of developing the bishop by moving up the knight pawn is known as a fianchetto, and is very popular in modern chess. It is much less popular in other disciplines, such as football. (I straight up stole that joke from Chessmaster, sorry.)



Okay, so why is development important? Basically because a piece that isn't attacking or defending anything (directly or indirectly) is pretty much useless. The more active and well-placed your pieces are, the harder it is for your opponent to make agressive moves, while you retain as many options as possible for going on the attack.

In the above example white and black has made an equal number of moves, but white is way ahead in development. All white's minor pieces are out and active in central squares, while black's pieces are sitting passively in their starting squares and are in some cases even blocked in by his own pawns. Sad!

This ties back into the concept of tempo - in this case white is way ahead because blacks wasted a lot of tempo on unproductive or even counterproductive moves.

There's a lot more to be said about openings, but this should hopefully be a decent enough starting point for now. As always, please ask if you have any immediate questions!

Covski fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Sep 11, 2017

Covski
Jun 24, 2007

Bringing the forums together with the greatest thread!


White has 24 hours to decide on a move.

Space Kablooey
May 6, 2009


oh boy

BTW I assume the observer thread is off-limits now, but you might want to post a "DO NOT CROSS THIS LINE" in there now.

idhrendur
Aug 20, 2016

:eng101: Welcome to team black! I'll be checking in regularly if you have questions. Best of luck!

Junpei Hyde
Mar 15, 2013




Gonna suggest e7-e5, it seems that starting off by moving a pawn is a generally solid opening move. If anyone has another sugestion then theyre free to present it.

Frionnel
May 7, 2010

Friends are what make testing worth it.
Alright team black, we're clearly the best one, let's play this thing!

Well let's see what white does first before we start planning right?

Ibblebibble
Nov 12, 2013

Hello fellow Team Blacks :) I have the feeling they're going to open with their d/e pawn(forget which is the normal opening) so probably just mirror for the moment? Might as well keep our opening orthodox.

Edit: mirror's the wrong word, the pawn on the other side of the centre :v:

Flame
Feb 20, 2016

BY FIRE BE PURGED!

Ibblebibble posted:

Hello fellow Team Blacks :) I have the feeling they're going to open with their d/e pawn(forget which is the normal opening) so probably just mirror for the moment? Might as well keep our opening orthodox.

Edit: mirror's the wrong word, the pawn on the other side of the centre :v:

e2-e4 is the 'standard' first move, I believe. Let's see what they do first and I'd generally suggest not doing anything drastic at least from the beginning.
Let's all have fun :)

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.
Would "something drastic" be moving a knight in the first round?

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!

Mraagvpeine posted:

Would "something drastic" be moving a knight in the first round?

As long as your motion is toward the center 4 squares of the board it's difficult to consider it drastic or weird.

LupusAter
Sep 5, 2011

I think we should wait to see what White does, and try to stick to more formalized openings. They are the standard for a reason, after all.
On a more general note, this game might be low-level, but having an abundance of time and many people thinking about the move should prevent obvious mistakes, so we shouldn't try to force them. We start on the backfoot, and must play accordingly.

Covski
Jun 24, 2007

Bringing the forums together with the greatest thread!

Coolguye posted:

As long as your motion is toward the center 4 squares of the board it's difficult to consider it drastic or weird.

quote:

Players aren't allowed to read the observer thread or the opposing team's thread, observers aren't allowed to post in the team threads.
:)

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!

Missed that, my mistake.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




Hello teammates, looking forward to learning chess and making friends along the way.

We're not the villains even though we are the colour commonly seen as what bad guys wear

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
:eng101: Hello everyone. I'll be happy to answer any basic chess questions you all have or to help people that are just getting lost. Remember to have fun, and behave well! It's just a game, after all.

Also remember that Wikipedia is the only allowed source for info on opening moves.

Covski
Jun 24, 2007

Bringing the forums together with the greatest thread!
Actually, after thinking about it a bit more I'll be amending the rules to allow chess.com as a source for information as well. Me changing the rules as I figure out what works is basically a trademark of mine by now anyway!

Sorry about any confusion!

Odysseus S. Grant
Oct 12, 2011

Cats is the oldest and strongest emotion
of mankind
Hello friends, I doubt I'll have much to say besides voting, but I'll hope I can learn something from this.

Space Kablooey
May 6, 2009


Since we are waiting until White makes a move, how about we go into detail what are our chess experiences, if any? It's cool if you just post "I have been living under a rock for the past 2000 years and this is my first time I have even heard about this game.", but I think we should at least be acquainted between ourselves. :)

I'll start.

My experience with chess is that of a child-level player, really. :v: Between the 4th and 8th grade I played in one intra-school tournament set up by the Phys. Ed. teachers and got second place, and played sporadically against some of the kids now and then. We were never very competitive, so the theory that I was exposed to then, never really went beyond how the pieces moved, and then we just went nuts playing the games "our" way. I think my very last game went down in flames because not everyone knew that en passant was a thing, and really never touched chess again. Also, I'm really poo poo at solving those chess puzzles, and that is to say that I can't do them at all.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




When I got my first cell phone it had chess on it so I played but I don't think I ever won a game. I can usually solve chess puzzles because it's usually just making one move but I've never been really good at seeing other moves from opponents so I would always get blindsided. I don't really understand how I am good/passable at piece-based board games yet seem to always fail whenever I play Chess. I think the only times I ever played chess regularly and won some was playing LEGO Chess on the computer but that was with the AI so low that it was making moves dumber than what Herp suggested :v:

I think my biggest weakness when it comes to chess is that I don't really consider why I am moving pieces to certain places, the whole "think 5 moves ahead" stuff, and so if I see a move, like capturing a piece, I will just take it and not think about other things. Basically I'm not very good at seeing traps

Mraagvpeine
Nov 4, 2014

I won this avatar on a technicality this thick.
I remember attending a chess class in a community center back when I was in elementary school. I was the youngest there and the lesson about castling stuck with me to this day. I played against the older people and lost most of the time. I also remember getting a chess game on CD-ROM and playing it on my dad's computer when he wasn't using it for work. I had moderate success at winning (though maybe a few of those wins involved using the command to go back moves :sweatdrop:), but never beat it on Grandmaster level.

Mraagvpeine fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Sep 12, 2017

Talow
Dec 26, 2012


Hello, good luck and hope to have fun.

Snorb
Nov 19, 2010
I can beat the AI on easiest difficulty in Clubhouse Games. I have literally never won against a human playing chess.

anakha
Sep 16, 2009


Last chess game I won against a human was more than two decades ago.

Last chess game I won against a computer was almost exactly 2 decades ago.

Last full chess game I played against either a human or computer was in 1998.

Ibblebibble
Nov 12, 2013

I joined chess club for a couple of years in primary and lost terribly all the time because I kept going for pawns with no thinking beyond the next move.

Flame
Feb 20, 2016

BY FIRE BE PURGED!
I had a book on chess when I was a kid, and I had a chess board, so I've known the rules since then. I didn't have anyone to play with though, so all my knowledge (if any) is pretty much theoretical. Also, a few years ago I rewrote Deep Blue versus Garry Kasparov into a story, which sparked my interest again. No new experience since then, save for that game we've witnessed.
Guess I'm bad at predicting opponent's moves and executing a good game plan, but I know the rules, and I'd like to try and analyze the game as we're playing.

As for moving a knight in the first round. By something drastic, I meant unnecessary moves, early queen movements without reason, etc. Knights are fine. Though as I said before, as black our best chance would be responding to white's moves at first. There are many good openings, but we should at least stick to the one that counters whatever they try to do.

Covski
Jun 24, 2007

Bringing the forums together with the greatest thread!
Since it's come up in both threads, a few thoughts about what is meant by book play. The fact of the matter is that chess openings are well researched enough that all the moves that are considered objectively better are mostly known. This does not mean that you should think of book openings as merely aping moves by expert players - rather think of them as a list of move suggestions to choose from, all with their own trade-offs and their own likelihood to result in different types of games. What they all have in common is that they are solid alternatives when picking a move (mostly - some really speculative plays have their own names and analyses) - you still need to make hard decisions on which book lines to pursue, which I'd personally argue is no less interesting as a learning exercise.

It's also generally true that the player who decides to leave book ahead of time is the first player to deliberately make a sub-optimal move, usually losing something in the process. Of course this means that the opponent is out of book moves as well and it's not impossible to gain an advantage from this (especially if you are a stronger player but less well read on the opening), but the fact remains that you have given up something by choosing to leave the book in the first place. Remember: A move being a book move doesn't just mean it's well researched and known by your opponent, it also means that hundreds of years of chess play has shown it to be stronger than the alternatives.

That said, do not take this as advice to stick to the book at all costs in this game: I just want to make the advantages of book play clear, and maybe change the way you think about it a bit. "Following standard book openings" sounds pretty boring, after all, but I promise it's not!

Also, some terminology elaboration:

A gambit is an opening in which one player offers a sacrifice (usually temporarily) a pawn to gain some kind of advantage. This can be a gain of tempo, an easier time developing your pieces, a positional advantage (often by having more pawns on the central squares), or a long term strategical advantage by weakening the opponent's pawn structure. Of course, the player who is offered the gambit has the choice to accept or decline the offered pawn. Oftentimes, a player accepting a gambit will not attempt to hold on to the extra pawn indefinitely, but will instead attempt to leverage their temporary material advantage for further gain.

Pressure is to place any square or piece.The player defending the square/piece will have to commit more pieces to its defence, tying up resources and limiting their tactical flexibility. The player putting on the pressure retains the option of releasing the pressure by shifting attacking pieces to another place on the board, possibly to suddenly attack in another spot.

Remember, me and the mentors are on hand if you have any questions about concepts or terms, or want any clarification on the strategic ideas of different openings or something along those lines. :eng101: I know this is a lot of information to take in at once, so don't be afraid to ask. Odds are that if you're wondering about something, other people are as well!

Covski
Jun 24, 2007

Bringing the forums together with the greatest thread!
To amend my earlier point: Even when following book plays, I strongly encourage you to think long and hard and discuss why the moves are good. This is true generally, but especially for this game. Book play isn't a substitute for independent analysis but rather a good case study to try and figure out the reasoning why these moves are considered the best in that particular situation, and how that fits with your own understanding of the game.

Covski
Jun 24, 2007

Bringing the forums together with the greatest thread!


1. e2-e4

King's pawn game

You have 24 hours to decide on a move.

Covski fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Sep 12, 2017

Ibblebibble
Nov 12, 2013

Going to base most of this off the Wikipedia link Covski gave.

Well the Scandinavian defense didn't really work out for the black team last time, but I think there's value in not going for the number one response in the Sicilian defense (c7-c5). I think we should go for the French defense (e7-e6). It gives a decent amount of options going forwards whilst maintaining a slight degree of unpredictability. Hopefully I'm not pulling a Herp with this suggestion. :v:

LupusAter
Sep 5, 2011

Looking at the wiki link Covski provided, I like the Sicilian Defence, c7-c5. It's a bold move, which has the potential to create a very complex game (and as such, lots of pitfalls for both us and them), but it's also the statistically best one. By committing to this we would sacrifice development (how many of our pieces can attack) in exchange for spatial advantage on the queenside (we'd threaten more spaces on the right side of the board), while still contesting control of the center. Let's be hot-blooded, let's go Sicilian.

Space Kablooey
May 6, 2009


I like the idea of the French defense, but that apparently usually traps our white-square bishop. I'd say to stick to the popular move and play the Sicilian defense (c7-c5).

Space Kablooey fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Sep 13, 2017

Odysseus S. Grant
Oct 12, 2011

Cats is the oldest and strongest emotion
of mankind
I personally like g7-g6 to then follow up with Bf8-g7, developing our bishop.

e: changed to c7-c5

Odysseus S. Grant fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Sep 13, 2017

Talow
Dec 26, 2012


Yeah, I think I like e7-e6 for opening up the queen and black-bishop.

anakha
Sep 16, 2009


I don't recall ever having consciously played anything other than E7-E5 in my games with other human players. The myriad of options Black has in response to E4 has me :psyduck:.

Still, as Covski said, the most popular response is most popular for a valid reason. I'll go with C7-C5.

Frionnel
May 7, 2010

Friends are what make testing worth it.
I like the options that have been posted here, but i think i'll throw my support for C7-C5 for now, i like the options that one gives us.

Aces High
Mar 26, 2010

Nah! A little chocolate will do




I was going to suggest moving the knight out, I think that would be Nf6? but I suppose we aren't really equipped for something like that so I will go along with C7 to C5 as well.

I just want to pieces other than pawns darn it :v:

Snorb
Nov 19, 2010
c7-c5 is the most common defense to this, isn't it? Why not go with that? (Besides, of course, the most common response to King's Pawn Opening would have shitloads of responses...)

Anyway, fun fact: Each of the twenty opening moves White can start with has a unique name, according to chess.com.

Flame
Feb 20, 2016

BY FIRE BE PURGED!
Despite being the most popular and successful, I think Sicilian is a bold move. My first thought would be to just respond with e7-e5 and proceed to an open game. I'm not sure we can reap the benefits of this opening in the long run and yes, pulling a herp would be awful.
However, I'm still voting for c7-c5 :devil: It's a newbie game, and it'd be a waste not to try and learn from it. I'd never dare to try such a move in a 1-on-1 game anyway.
We would need to attack from the queen side, I guess? I'm thinking about moving that knight so that we could contest some center squares (our c-pawn doesn't contribute a lot from my point of view).

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Ibblebibble
Nov 12, 2013

I think the idea of the C pawn coming out first is to take their D pawn if they decide to go dx-d4? Or at least that's what I gleaned from the article.

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