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Kilroy posted:The core value of democratic socialism is employee ownership and democratic control of industry within that context. It is socialism. Those two categories can not coexist. Democratic socialism merely tries to impose a limit on arbitrary decision making by property owners, it gives employees no positive control.
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Sep 29, 2017 20:02
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Falstaff posted:No, that's social democracy. Democratic socialism is socialism - i.e., worker control of the means of production. It is not in the real world.
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Sep 29, 2017 21:57
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Kilroy posted:What can not coexist? Democratic control of industry and employee ownership? How do you figure? Private property and worker democracy.
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Sep 29, 2017 21:57
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Kilroy posted:Okay you're going to need to expand on that because we already have workplace democracy right now for some businesses, and I'm pretty sure we still have private property. What the gently caress What gave you the impression i was talking from a libertarian perspective Also there is no significant worker democracy in any western country. All forms of such have been relegated to vestigial roles.
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Sep 29, 2017 22:28
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"Democratic socialism doesn't do enough to promote worker democracy" "Wow, wow, settle down Ayn Rand, why are you jumping to defend property owners"
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Sep 29, 2017 22:29
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The only conflict is whether what is being floated as democratic socialism in real world (i.e. Bernie Sanders) is socialism in anything but name. It seems to be obviously not the case, but eh, who cares.
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Sep 29, 2017 22:32
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Bernie Sanders once confused a salad fork for a fish fork. Do not let this monster represent you.
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Sep 30, 2017 19:38
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The concept of learning from history is dead because every time you come up with a historical example, some chud crawls out of a hole and helpfully mentions that some of the context of your scenario was problematic, and therefore the content of your example is problematic by proxy. So the only proper way to conduct oneself is to ignore all past experience and blindly stumble forward in a fit of end-of-history neoliberalism.
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Oct 2, 2017 09:57
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Nevvy Z posted:God forbid we give slaves valuable work experience while they pay their debt to their masters.
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Oct 5, 2017 14:10
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Also unpaid internships are great because they give kids valuable work experience as they learn to be members of society.
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Oct 5, 2017 14:11
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Nevvy Z posted:"You shouldn't call yourself a centrist, even though we are going to call you one anytime you disagree with anything dumb we say" You shouldn't identify as a moron either, just because people call you that.
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Oct 5, 2017 20:33
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Nevvy Z posted:"Leftists": Hey guys, did you hear about how Hillary Clinton sold the blood of the people she enslaved? I yearn for the good old days when politicians were foolish guac merchants, instead of slave blood traders.
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Oct 15, 2017 18:47
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JeffersonClay posted:So I'm right and it's just about trolling, thanks for the honesty. Hillary Clinton is one of the reasons why the prison system is as bad as it is, therefore she is personally complicit in what amounts to slavery. In other words, Hillary Clinton owned slaves and enabled others to own slaves to this day.
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Oct 17, 2017 07:24
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wixard posted:I'm trying to figure out what the baseline is for criticizing Hillary from the left in this thread. Is it Bernie, thus centered around the 2016 election, or is it some ideal left candidate we've never seen? The baseline for criticizing Hillary as well as any other candidate in existence is their position on substantial issues, not their being worse or better than an arbitrary other person, hth.
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Oct 17, 2017 07:31
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Hot take: If you can't stop screaming about how your team is better when you talk about hillary or bernie, you're just as bad as the republicans who vote based on party lines no matter how bad republicans get. It's all tribal bullshit and that's why it's annoying as gently caress, unproductive, and banned in every other thread. Your take is about as hot as a blizzard so keep it to yourself. The Hillary - Bernie chat will die out when one of them retires. As long as they are both trying to maintain influence, it remains relevant.
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Oct 17, 2017 08:46
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botany posted:sanders voted for the tough-on-crime bill that was instrumental in leading to the mass incarceration we're talking about though. Unlike the Clintons who saw the tough on crime bill as being good in all its components, Sanders voted for it specifically to enable some parts that he thought outweighted the evils it would exacerbate, namely mass incarceration (which the Clintons in effect promoted), specifically the increase in spending on policing violence against women etc. Meanwhile he spoke out regularly - beginning even before the 1994 bill was conceived - against increasing conviction and incarceration rates.
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Oct 17, 2017 09:39
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Yeah but that's not what you're doing. You're pissing on each other on a dead gay forum and no one who has this debate listens at all to anyone but the voice in their own head, and you've all been doing it for almost a loving year now. It accomplishes nothing, so saying "but we have to do it to accomplish things" is loving asinine and you know it. If you wanted to talk about mistakes the DNC has made and is still making you'd be talking about Ellison and Perez and DWS and the Panera strategy and fundraising and better candidates and loving Feinstein, but you're not. You know exactly why you're not, everyone else knows why you're not, you just don't want to admit it, and that's what makes it so loving frustrating when it keeps popping up loving everywhere. (It's not sexism, btw, it's stupid loving tribal politics because leftists and centrists have to be different teams in your minds for this dumb argument to keep cropping up) If people feel a need to defend something reflexively due to personal loyalties, it means they are NOT allies in a single issue / policy based framework, it shows they are instead part of a feudal structure where policies and issues are a means to an end rather than an end in itself. Those people need to change their attitude. Because the next time they invest themselves into a candidate that eventually betrays the issues, they will once again lapse into defending them, perpetuating the vicious cycle of zero accountability for politicians. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 11:19
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botany posted:and clinton voted for the iraq war as a compromise deal with bush you are wrong, sanders voted against mandatory minimums, as well as presented amendments to e.g. restrict death penalty also, hillary's vote for Iraq would have been more tolerable as a compromise, instead of a show of gratitude for services already rendered, so to speak
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Oct 17, 2017 12:22
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this wasn't even a close-to-unanimous bill like iraq, a third of all democrats voted against the bill. including the majority of black dems, if i recall correctly.
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Finally, the 1994 bill authorized a committee to investigate whether crack vs. powder cocaine should be treated differently, and what the impact of outstanding sentencing practices was. When the findings were presented to the Congress in 1995, Sanders was among the minority of Democrats who voted against dismissing the report that found the disproportionate persecution of crack possession to be a factor in growing racial disparity: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1995/roll725.xml To twist this as Sanders' lust for prisoner blood is at best humorous.
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Oct 17, 2017 12:31
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botany posted:yes, and the recommendation following the report was to lower sentencing for crack cocaine users. cue sanders: Yes, and as I said: He voted against overturning the recommendation, most Democrats voted alongside Republicans who introduced a bill to dismiss it. No need to make things up when his record isn't perfect. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Oct 17, 2017 |
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Oct 17, 2017 12:52
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I think that if there is a law that makes cocaine illegal, the version that is used by rich and white people should be just as illegal as the one used by poor and black people  If only because then it's more likely to get repealed.
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Oct 17, 2017 13:37
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Make it 60% and we will come to the table to negotiate. We also want a clause statng that Bernie would have lost. Our Union rep will be waiting for your response. It's a trick, there is no way bad dems would ever permit a union to exist.
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Oct 17, 2017 15:38
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yronic heroism posted:You are the one talking about the road. I just think it's hosed up in its own right not to call that poo poo out strongly. there should be a bataan death march of your posts
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Oct 18, 2017 19:36
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yronic heroism posted:Prime example of a "he literally doesn't have a Nazi Party membership card from 1945 or earlier" genre post. this is the dachau of logic
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Oct 18, 2017 19:43
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apparently you did need a lecture, and still do, because your take on the whole "controversy" is the dumbest thing I've seen whole week.
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Oct 18, 2017 20:20
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Shut the gently caress up already, literally nobody agrees with you, everybody thinks you are stupid and wrong, what will it take to make you go away and stop trying to have the last word in this thread making GBS threads derail
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Oct 18, 2017 21:31
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yronic heroism posted:Lol if you think Stalin did not own the means of production. Soviet Union was state capitalism.
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Oct 20, 2017 07:47
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Jesus Christ, this forum gets dumber every single day, and for once it's not because of me.
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Oct 20, 2017 07:48
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stalin's only crime is that he didn't take measures that would have prevented the creation of uspol
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Oct 20, 2017 12:11
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VitalSigns posted:Hey why did Trump inherit an open-ended authorization to war on anyone for any reason and a full-on bombing campaign to easily take over? Oh right because Obama cared more about butchering Arab kids than he did about protecting some of them from a subsequent Republican administration that loves murder more than he did. Because the presidency will be forever passed down a lineage of wise philosopher kings, so it is not a problem that the office has been accumulating unprecedented powers with no oversight.
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Oct 30, 2017 15:05
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Azhais posted:Anyone have any good politics podcasts they like? The Daou of Politics
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Nov 2, 2017 15:23
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Azhais posted:I thought we didn't like Verrit on this forum, or was that just the meme thread? Please do not actually listen to The Daou of Politics.
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Nov 2, 2017 18:01
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Nevvy Z posted:xposting It's hard out there for a boy genius,
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Jan 10, 2018 23:28
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As a rule of thumb goons rate food based on how much of it they can shove down their gullets in as little time as possible, so disliking French food comes as no surprise.
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Jan 12, 2018 13:02
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Or you could go to any number of immigrant quarters and get food from around the world. Thank God for immigration! Or not because why downgrade.
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Jan 12, 2018 18:26
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Also nothing shows bougie undercurrents like talking about food / service industry in general. Thanks for the underclass that can slave away in the kitchen to feed my lazy rear end!
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Jan 12, 2018 18:28
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Cingulate posted:Californian food beats German food hands down. Some of the best food I ever had was Puerto Rican in California. Awesome. The freshness! The newness! The spirit! THis is the most insufferable post.
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Jan 13, 2018 12:48
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Just eat something and don't share, nobody gives a gently caress
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Jan 13, 2018 12:48
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gaj70 posted:RIP Arthur Andersen, LLP (wrongly executed at that). THank God, CIA is back to being a friend to the people, and to #Resistance
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Mar 16, 2018 18:39
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She's a master legislator.
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Jun 29, 2018 12:44
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