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Mixodorian posted:and the fact that their country is a theocratic state based on a religion their Persian ancestors (which they're extremely proud of) were brutally forced onto. I think this is a point that is frequently missed, by American commentators at least - non religious Iranians can be if anything more nationalist and revanchist than their religious compatriots. mediadave fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Nov 7, 2017 |
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Nov 7, 2017 17:09
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just some random Turkey news I saw today, dunno how much to credit it https://twitter.com/LeeCamp/status/927843571935330304
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Nov 7, 2017 17:31
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mediadave posted:I think this is a point that is frequently missed, by American commentators at least - non religious Iranians can be if anything more nationalist and revanchist than their religious compatriots.
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Nov 7, 2017 17:39
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Is that Carl Dieggler in the lower left?
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Nov 7, 2017 17:42
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I still don't know what Syria is and I will never graduate öcalan is the light
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Nov 7, 2017 18:06
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Hahaha very accurate People like Haidar Sumeri (IraqiSecurity) are Zoya Partisangirl is obviously Layla Charles Lister is like a mix between Aidan and Habibullah
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Nov 7, 2017 18:11
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lebanon-politics-hariri-analysis/saudi-reopens-lebanon-front-in-struggle-with-iran-idUSKBN1D72BA I don't get what the Saudis are thinking here. There's no way their Lebanese proxies are going to defeat Hezbollah. If anything the end result is a Lebanon under even more Hezbollah influence. OhFunny fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Nov 7, 2017 |
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Nov 7, 2017 18:23
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mediadave posted:I also have Iranian in-laws , but they don't really talk (to me) about Iran or the middle east except to moan about family drama and the ownership of the carpet factory (yep...) That reminds me of a very nice comedy movie about culture clash and communication issues.
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Nov 7, 2017 18:24
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OhFunny posted:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lebanon-politics-hariri-analysis/saudi-reopens-lebanon-front-in-struggle-with-iran-idUSKBN1D72BA You could make the case that forcing Hezbollah out of the shadows and shoving the reality of their control of that country in everyone's faces serves Saudi Arabia's purpose to the extent that it makes hardliners in Israel and the US more likely to fight Iranian influence in the region, or at least gives Saudi Arabia more justification for brutalizing the gently caress out of Yemen to resist it themselves.
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Nov 7, 2017 18:27
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OhFunny posted:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lebanon-politics-hariri-analysis/saudi-reopens-lebanon-front-in-struggle-with-iran-idUSKBN1D72BA Yeah, I could see why politicians might be skittish considering in general, I don't get a sense Lebanese people care for Saudi Arabia that much. Admittedly, many Maronites and Sunnis (usually depending on a number of factors) also dislike Hezbollah, but I doubt very much Lebanese would be willing to give their lives to get rid of them. Memories of both the Civil War and the 2006 War are very much alive in Lebanon, and I think everyone knows who is going to pay if there is another one (the Lebanese population itself). Also the pressure being applied is so haphazard and contradictory by the Saudis, it is hard to see how it would actually work (just like the Qatar situation). Sinteres posted:You could make the case that forcing Hezbollah out of the shadows and shoving the reality of their control of that country in everyone's faces serves Saudi Arabia's purpose to the extent that it makes hardliners in Israel and the US more likely to fight Iranian influence in the region, or at least gives Saudi Arabia more justification for brutalizing the gently caress out of Yemen to resist it themselves. That is assuming they could get Hezbollah to actually try to take direct control rather than just keep the status quo which completely benefits them. Also, if the goal is to get the Christian/Sunni Maronites to fight their war for them, they better get another plan (it doesn't help they seem to be also simultaneously blaming all of Lebanon). What I am trying to say is MbS doesn't seem to be a very good chess player. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Nov 7, 2017 |
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Nov 7, 2017 18:35
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Personally I stopped giving a poo poo about the Syrian Civil War when several months into 2011, I realized that the FSA wasn't going to win this one, and that no US aid was forthcoming lest it step on Russia's toes.
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Nov 7, 2017 19:12
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Mixodorian posted:Just as a precursor, my fiance's parents have been in the country for several decades and are non-practicing, if they're still religious at all. They were very excited that Rouhani was re elected over Raisi and that his re election was a show of resistance to the fundamentalists still controlling the Iranian state (I don't think Rouhani is THAT much of a reformer, but that was the impression Iranians had of the election as far as I can tell). I'll go in order. Neat. With Hezbollah I wasn't talking specifically about Syria, though that is still interesting. What about them as an organization. Say, if Hezbollah were to get into a conflict with Israel or Saudi Arabia. Would these people support Hezbollah cause they're cool guys? Or support Hezbollah because they don't like their opponents? Or say gently caress it they're all bad let them kill each other.
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Nov 7, 2017 19:19
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The Lebanon stuff is another terrible foreign policy move from MBS. The overriding consensus across most Shia/Sunni/Christian Lebanese is "avoid conflict at all costs. The status quo isn't great but its a hell of a lot better than more war". They've learnt a pretty severe lesson from the mistakes of the last 30 years. Only a tiny, militant, Saudi funded, minority of Sunnis would support any rocking of the boat. And they'd be no match for Hezbollah, or the rest of the population. The most likely outcome from any increased militancy of that minority of Sunnis is probably an expulsion of the Syrian refugees, who're both mostly Sunni and increasingly unappreciated.
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Nov 7, 2017 19:24
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Going into exile in Iran is an interesting choice for a Saudi royal. This whole thing is crazy. http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/saudi-arabia-prince-turki-bin-mohamed-bin-fahd-flees-to-iran/1/1084357.html
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Nov 7, 2017 19:58
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OhFunny posted:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lebanon-politics-hariri-analysis/saudi-reopens-lebanon-front-in-struggle-with-iran-idUSKBN1D72BA Does Israel count as a proxy? My guess is they're just trying to sow chaos in the hopes it catalyzes a new war between Israel and Hez. Less of an intricate scheme and more throwing poo poo at the wall and hoping it sticks.
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Nov 7, 2017 20:38
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Sinteres posted:Going into exile in Iran is an interesting choice for a Saudi royal. This whole thing is crazy. Looooooolll holy shiiiit
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Nov 7, 2017 20:47
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Al-Saqr posted:Looooooolll holy shiiiit Its this legit? I don't especially trust some rando Indian paper for this sort of thing.
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Nov 7, 2017 21:00
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Count Roland posted:Its this legit? I don't especially trust some rando Indian paper for this sort of thing. I have no way of finding out beyond normal online sources.
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Nov 7, 2017 21:06
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:Does Israel count as a proxy? My guess is they're just trying to sow chaos in the hopes it catalyzes a new war between Israel and Hez. Less of an intricate scheme and more throwing poo poo at the wall and hoping it sticks. I feel like any intra-Lebanese fighting isn't going to last long in the face of an Israeli invasion. Are the Israelis really going to stick their hand back in that blender after the 2006 War?
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Nov 7, 2017 23:50
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Count Roland posted:Its this legit? I don't especially trust some rando Indian paper for this sort of thing. It apparently came from a twitter post by an Isreali reporter... which was deleted as quickly as a couple of Saudi princes
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Nov 8, 2017 00:12
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OhFunny posted:I feel like any intra-Lebanese fighting isn't going to last long in the face of an Israeli invasion. Pretty well everyone agrees Hezbollah and Israel will go at it again. The last war was a stalemate that embarrassed Israel. No chance this will be allowed to stand forever.
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Nov 8, 2017 01:18
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I have no idea what is going on. But i live in hope of a future in which I can scuba dive on the Saudi side of Tiran and Sanafir, visit the new spaceflight & entertainment centre west of Riyadh and treat visiting relatives with tourist VISAs to spicy chicken from Al Baik.
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Nov 8, 2017 02:58
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https://twitter.com/ajenews/status/927992871881408515 Lol houthis be trolling.
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Nov 8, 2017 06:02
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Al-Saqr posted:https://twitter.com/ajenews/status/927992871881408515 
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Nov 8, 2017 06:14
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Mixodorian posted:I think the most unique factor I've seen with Iranians, at least with the Iranians in my life, is that they feel very unfairly hated. That they were on the travel ban but Pakistan wasn't, the hate they hate they get from the rest of the Muslim world with few exceptions, and the fact that their country is a theocratic state based on a religion their Persian ancestors (which they're extremely proud of) were brutally forced onto. Obviously I'm only working off anecdotes here, but Iranians do seem to be in a uniquely unfortunate position. Yeah, you'll see this alot with with Iranian emigres in the West it seems (also often with their families still in Iran). Non-practising/non-religious though with a weird mix of "I WISH IRAN WAS STILL ZOROASTRIAN!". Never mind that Zoroastrianism kind of came down like a house of cards with the fall of the royal family and already was severly weakened both as an institution and as a popular religion by factors such as the Mazdaki revolution, the weakness of the monarchy in the late Sassanid period and the destruction and disruption wrought by the last great war with Rome. Zoroastrianism wasn't really brutally suppressed, it continued to exist in folk form as the dominant religion of the peasantry for 3 to 4 centuries after the fall of the Persian Empire, then was a significant minority religion after most of Iran was converted by Sufi mystics and such as the Abbasids fell apart, then they were mostly converted to Shi'ism by the Safavids in the 16th century, with a tiny few still remaining. There's also that the high point of of Persian culture, literature and language came in the Islamic period and was also when the language spread far outside Iran (during the older Persian Empires, the Persian language had never really attained a prestigious status, the offiicial state language of the Achaemenids varied by region but was mostly Aramaic, the Parthians used Greek, the Sassanids used Persian though it was only really spoken in Persian in southern Iran, the Eastern Iranian languages still dominated most of the rest of the country and in the west you had Semitic languages and such) Randarkman fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 10:35
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otoh Mazdakism is rad and they really should have kept that.
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Nov 8, 2017 11:04
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Randarkman posted:Yeah, you'll see this alot with with Iranian emigres in the West it seems (also often with their families still in Iran). Non-practising/non-religious though with a weird mix of "I WISH IRAN WAS STILL ZOROASTRIAN!". Never mind that Zoroastrianism kind of came down like a house of cards with the fall of the royal family and already was severly weakened both as an institution and as a popular religion by factors such as the Mazdaki revolution, the weakness of the monarchy in the late Sassanid period and the destruction and disruption wrought by the last great war with Rome. I'm not sure cultures really have "high points" and some Persian nationalist out there probably thinks it's been all downhill since Xerxes. Iran is an interesting case because the Persian identity is ancient but has shifted hugely over time, along with its borders. The Shia faith of the Safavids is relatively recent part of Persian culture and coexisted with a more secular monarchist sort of ethnonationalism before attempting to subsume it. This may be "ancient history" to an extent, but it still provides ammunition for secular nationalists who vaguely miss the Shah or want a "Persian" rather than "Islamic" government. Traditionalist, conservative, and reactionary elements who nevertheless find themselves at odds with the government are always looking for ways to prove they're the real patriots and the more left-wing "smash the state" types have their own motives for undermining the powers that be.
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Nov 8, 2017 11:14
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:otoh Mazdakism is rad and they really should have kept that. It kind of won out amongst alot of Iranian common folk and the monarchy did come to a kind of settlement with Mazdakism in order to ensure peace (which greatly angered the religious hierarchy). Then Islam came and essentially decapitated the whole thing by getting rid of the monarchy and the church, it's not unlikely that a significant element of Mazdakism became a part of the Zoroastrianism as it went on to practiced mostly by the peasantry (though also significantly in the cities of Transoxania, though those areas where much more heterodox than the orthodox Sassanid establishment would have preferred to start, and sometimes outright polytheistic).
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Nov 8, 2017 11:15
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I do wish that there'd be a zoroastrian cultural revival in Iran one of these days...if not a fullblown revivalism.
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Nov 8, 2017 13:26
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Grouchio posted:I do wish that there'd be a zoroastrian cultural revival in Iran one of these days...if not a fullblown revivalism. I doubt that will happen, but I did read an interesting book 'Drinking Arak Off an Ayatollah’s Beard' https://www.amazon.com/Drinking-Arak-Off-Ayatollah%C2%92s-Beard/dp/0306818841 which was basically all about the strongly rooted pre-Isamic culture and literature* in Iran, particularly amongst young people. The Islamic revolution hasn't killed it off, and if anything it's growing stronger. Of course, even if people wear a bull's head symbol and jump through fires it doesn't mean they'll abandon Shia Islam. (* EDIT: Of course the Shanameh isn't actually pre-Islamic, written in 11th century, but it's about Pre-Islamic Persia and its continued popularity solidifies those Pre Islamic Kings and myths as a Golden Age) mediadave fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 14:21
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In 100% serious, not-joking honesty Iran would/will very likely be a much better steward of the Middle East than the USA and its allies ever were or will be
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Nov 8, 2017 14:59
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icantfindaname posted:In 100% serious, not-joking honesty Iran would/will very likely be a much better steward of the Middle East than the USA and its allies ever were or will be Would piss off most of the Arab world though. Not that the USA doesn't do that already.
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Nov 8, 2017 15:01
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icantfindaname posted:In 100% serious, not-joking honesty Iran would/will very likely be a much better steward of the Middle East than the USA and its allies ever were or will be They emptied Syria of half its population. I'd really rather not take any chances with being under their care given what they did to Iraq & Syria. They are not a force for good at all. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 15:07
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icantfindaname posted:In 100% serious, not-joking honesty Iran would/will very likely be a much better steward of the Middle East than the USA and its allies ever were or will be I think the Arab nations would disagree with this.
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Nov 8, 2017 15:24
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Hezbollah(Iraqi, Lebanese, Syrian) has https://twitter.com/tobiaschneider/status/928266943706075137 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG-u_gZTXVo
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Nov 8, 2017 17:06
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Throatwarbler posted:Hezbollah(Iraqi, Lebanese, Syrian) has There's an Iraqi "Hezbollah"?
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Nov 8, 2017 18:11
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:There's an Iraqi "Hezbollah"? Hezbollah just means "party of god" so you'll find it as part of the name of militias all over the region.
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Nov 8, 2017 19:01
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icantfindaname posted:In 100% serious, not-joking honesty Iran would/will very likely be a much better steward of the Middle East than the USA and its allies ever were or will be 2. Even if this makes the Arabs hate us more, well gently caress them anyways - because they're the ones dealing with desertification and potential uninhabitability not Iran! 
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Nov 8, 2017 19:19
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Grouchio posted:1. gently caress yes and if I ever were to get into foreign policy in my life I would do my utmost to make this happen. 1. Iran is not a benevolent force in the region, they are every bit as murderous and oppressive through their proxies as any other fascist movement. 2. try being a decent human being and not a total retard, be for democracy, freedom and human rights rather than arbitrarily picking one group of murderers and oppressors over another.
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Nov 8, 2017 19:28
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Yeah the idea that the region would be better off with any one overseer seems suspect, particularly if you want a country led by Shia religious leaders to dominate a region at the heart of a majority Sunni religion. That doesn't really seem to me like a scenario that leads to peace.
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Nov 8, 2017 19:35
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