Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Neurolimal posted:

Israel is losing a wild amount of money off the war, as well as hemmorhaging dual-citizens. It's not likely to do the job by itself, but anything that additionally shutters Israeli business, cuts Israeli jobs, and compels more return voyages will help if your goal is to nonviolently compel Israel to stop (which, so long as America is openly supporting mass slaughter, is the only real way to stop the bombing).

While it's less violent than Israel's accelerated genocide campaign, attacking ships with missiles and kidnapping its crew is absolutely violent.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jan 19, 2024

# ¿ Jan 19, 2024 14:55

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 16:35

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

OctaMurk posted:

Sure, and the houthis have killed literally zero people during the blockade so they're at like 0.1/10 on the violence scale compared to israel. It's not merely "less violent", it is so much less violent that it might as well be described as nonviolent in comparison to what israel is doing

As I clearly stated, nonviolent is not the same as less violent. Even much less violent :rolleyes:

Side question for the thread in general, is there any news about any of the crew members from the captured ships? I can only find references about (at least some of them) being held hostage in initial news articles. But no news since about updates, terms of release, etc.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Jan 19, 2024

# ¿ Jan 19, 2024 15:15

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Neurolimal posted:

On that note, I feel like "Sauds almost captured their last port" is a bad barometer for how the war went, considering that we currently have an ongoing example of a militant force without any imports, whos citizens are being starved to death, and still have not been defeated.

It kind of reeks of "We almost won Vietnam, we just had to be ready to kill literally everyone!" cope, and if any thread is going to underestimate the efficacy of a guerilla force, it really should not be The Middle East Thread.

Yemen won, UAE/Sauds/US lost. We're pretty good at losing wars, we'll get over it.

This is because of the global pressure that prevents Israel from carpet bombing the living poo poo out of everything [to an even higher degree]. It has nothing to do with the Gazan militant force. Unless you count them being smart enough to hide within the civilian population to prevent said carpet bombing, I guess.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2024 04:30

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

A big flaming stink posted:

buddy do you legit think israel is restraining itself when it comes to attacking gaza?

they are simply running into the hard limits of air power; to actually complete a destruction of hamas, or a total genocide of palestine, they need to send in warm bodies

Obviously? Otherwise they would have destroyed every hospital to begin with.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2024 05:03

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Tangy Zizzle posted:

Also - has anyone been hurt by the attacks?

I�d say getting kidnapped/held hostage would be harmful

# ¿ Jan 20, 2024 14:02

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Tangy Zizzle posted:

No ship crews have been hurt and anyone thinking about their own safety would be avoiding the area

I would love to see a source for this. No reported deaths is a long ways away from no one hurt. Especially from the complete lack of updates regarding any hostages, AFAIK

# ¿ Jan 22, 2024 23:37

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Tangy Zizzle posted:

absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence and all that but I feel like if there had been any deaths it would have been bigger news

the two navy seals that died could I guess get pinned on the Houthis even though they died interdicting an Iranian ship I think

You do understand there�s a difference between inflicting harm and inflicting death, right? You made a bold claim, I�m just asking for evidence of this claim

# ¿ Jan 22, 2024 23:42

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

A big flaming stink posted:

Bruh I'm not sure what else to call ruling 15-2 and 16-1 on 4 orders

Overwhelmingly agree with Joe Biden's opinion in the SA case for Palestine?

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 15:38

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

A big flaming stink posted:

like to comply with the order they need to cease all aggressive activities vs palestine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/433cf258-6e70-43dc-afc3-46c2889d0ae9.pdf?itid=lk_inline_manual_2

im honestly at a loss to conclude this was anything but a huge defeat for israel on the international stage, and to proceed with the belief that nothing matters because they didn't call for an explicit ceasefire is rank doomerism

This is the same thing that the US has been pushing as well. Hell, the ICJ haven't even ruled on if Israel is committing a genocide: https://www.wionews.com/world/watch-south-african-president-cyril-ramaphosa-breaks-into-celebration-as-icj-rules-against-israel-684014

I guess it's good to add additional pressure to Israel, but I don't see how this will change anything. Israel will just continue to say things such as "we thought those civilians were Hamas soldiers" and "we had to destroy Hamas infrastructure that they hid in civilian infrastructure".

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 15:56

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

I'm confused by your claim of

Neurolimal posted:

South Africa won out on basically everything else; even the judge Israel provided ruled in favor.

Wasn't the main (or entire) point of South Africa's case that Israel was committing genocide? Which the ICJ has not made a ruling on [yet?]. I'm trying to find the entire document that South Africa submitted to the ICJ in December, but having a hard time (if anyone has a link, I'd appreciate it!).

However, numerous news articles I've read (e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/29/south-africa-accuses-israel-of-committing-genocide-in-gaza) seems to summarize it as "Israel are committing genocide, here are the reasons [...]". In addition for calling for an immediate ceasefire of course, which you already addressed*.

Based on this, I'm confused on how South Africa "won out on basically everything else".

*Although, TBH, I'm confused on your assumption on why ICJ wouldn't rule that. It's not unheard of for them to give a ceasefire/halt invasion rulings, such as the one they gave to Russia to stop their invasion a couple years ago.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 16:36

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Dopilsya posted:

Not exactly, this stage is basically the ICJ equivalent of saying South Africa's case survives a motion to dismiss and the provisional rulings are injunctions to prevent further irreparable harm until the merits of the case can be decided. Edit: which is to say South Africa won the day's argument pretty handily, but the relief sought wasn't entirely granted.

Here's South Africa's application: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Something worth noting, though-- Israel argued that the case should be determined under IHL not the Genocide Convention and that got rejected so the case proceeds on those grounds.

Oh nice, thanks for the link! I'll read through it later.

Although, I think I disagree that South Africa's motion not being dismissed and their request of an immediate ceasefire being denied as "they won", but ah well.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 17:00

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Stringent posted:

Well, there'd you'd be wrong. The ruling today was very much a victory for the Palestinian people. It's going to take time to bear fruit, but today was a victory for Palestine.

I'm talking about this claim:

Neurolimal posted:

South Africa won out on basically everything else; even the judge Israel provided ruled in favor.

This ICJ ruling is definitely better than nothing for Palestine. But it could have, and should have, been a more strict ruling that can't be easily followed by Israel by simply claiming stuff like:

Kalit posted:

"we thought those civilians were Hamas soldiers" and "we had to destroy Hamas infrastructure that they hid in civilian infrastructure".

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 17:18

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

A big flaming stink posted:

they cant simply proceed as they have been, those concerns are no excuse for committing actions that could result in genocide, thats why they have to report in a month about what they're doing to stop genocidal actions

The report doesn't seem to be about what they've changed? The ICJ hasn't ruled that Israel has been committing genocidal actions, so I'm not sure why you're trying to claim that the report requires them to say what they're doing to stop genocidal actions.

As far as what the report requires, as you noted above, it is:

quote:

82. Regarding the provisional measure requested by South Africa that Israel must submit a
report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to its Order, the Court recalls that it has the
power, reflected in Article 78 of the Rules of Court, to request the parties to provide information on
any matter connected with the implementation of any provisional measures it has indicated. In view
of the specific provisional measures it has decided to indicate, the Court considers that Israel must
submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order within one month,
as from the date of this Order. The report so provided shall then be communicated to South Africa,
which shall be given the opportunity to submit to the Court its comments thereon

And the orders to follow specifically includes this:

quote:

The Court recalls that these acts fall within the scope of Article II of the Convention when they are committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part a group as such (see paragraph 44 above)

Which can easily be covered by claiming any Palestinian civilians killed were collateral damage. Or, at least my non-lawyer brain thinks that would still be following the ICJ orders.

Kalit fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jan 26, 2024

# ¿ Jan 26, 2024 17:31

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

A big flaming stink posted:

They also have claimed to have rescued the crew on the ship after the extent of the damage became clear.

As a small note, the Houthis didn't claim they rescued the crew, they just said

quote:

During the operation, we made sure that the ship�s crew exited safely

The crew was rescued by MV Lobivia, after they had sent out a distress signal: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/red-sea-ship-missile-drone-houthi-rubymar-yemen-iran-gaza-b1139969.html

# ¿ Feb 19, 2024 20:07

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 16:35

Kalit: Nov 6, 2006; The great thing about the thousands of slaughtered Palestinian children is that they can't pull away when you fondle them or sniff their hair.

That's a Biden success story.

Party In My Diapee posted:

The Houthis have declared a blockade and every ship that doesn't go the long way around or surrender have decided to ignore that warning and put themselves at risk for no particular gain, other than profits for the companies and continued political support for Israel for the governments. Don't have to like the Houthis to be happy at least someone is doing what they can to protect Palestinians. We don't condemn Ukraine every time they cause civilian casualties

This is 100% false. The Houthis themselves have stated over and over again that they're targeting specific ships and aren't going to expand that scope to all ships in the Red Sea.

And, just to be clear to show that the Houthis aren't trying to do an entire blockade, there are lots of ships still passing through the Red Sea unhindered: https://www.marinevesseltraffic.com/RED-SEA/ship-traffic-tracker

Kalit fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Feb 21, 2024

# ¿ Feb 21, 2024 01:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall