Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Good idea, I look forward to Saqr's OP. That was a hell of a long old thread, thinking back to the Arab spring and everything happening live there, the Turkish coup, all the hijinks that ensued with neo imperialists and sick tankies and everything in between them. Following the rapid ascension of the Kurds and SDF before the taste started becoming more bittersweet (like all things in the Middle East).

things may be worse than in the Middle East but I like to think the posting about it is better compared to that old page 1 full of siiiiick pics and people talking about how hot Iranian women are during the green revolution (as a part-Iranian I can attest to this but it still always feels weird/creepy) and how not hot the Egyptians were.

Im thinking by page three thousand of this thread we'll have peace in the Middle East. That's something to think about toxxing for

Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Nov 6, 2017

# ¿ Nov 6, 2017 17:48

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 17:08

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

mediadave posted:

I think this is a point that is frequently missed, by American commentators at least - non religious Iranians can be if anything more nationalist and revanchist than their religious compatriots.

Yah I've definitely encountered this type of Persian racist among my Persian relatives. Non religious, intellectual, very obsessed with Old Persian identity and the imperial Persian past, sometimes even given to monarchic "well it wasn't all bad" if they're emigres. A lot of "imagine what we could have been without the inferior Arab culture forced upon us!"

# ¿ Nov 7, 2017 17:39

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Willie Tomg posted:

this isnt a word but i really really want it to be

yeah that caught my eye earlier as well. I think we can make Pakistanese happen. I like it.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2017 21:55

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

It's funny considering how terrible Russo-Persian relations have been historically, I guess Iran will never get to the point where they're so strong that those natural tensions reawaken.

# ¿ Nov 29, 2017 17:24

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

El Disco posted:

Have to agree with Bibi here

https://mobile.twitter.com/AFP/status/939886373665951747

Bombing an ethnic group because you don't want them to have any political power in your country is bad.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rojperist/status/939888143637123072
Uhhh

# ¿ Dec 10, 2017 20:24

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Sinteres posted:

Talking about Jews specifically feeding on blood is an old anti-Semitic trope. There are many valid criticisms of Israel, but at best he's unintentionally mirroring bigoted language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Dec 13, 2017 19:45

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Count Roland posted:

Where do you guys go for ~good~ geopolitical analysis?

this I'd also like to know...CaspianReport ain't great but I haven't found many alternatives that aren't just like Blathering Idiot, Out of Their Depth Dude or Stick Figure Cartoons

# ¿ Dec 29, 2017 22:01

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Vernii posted:

That coup pilot should have taken the shot when he had the chance.

Would that have really changed Turkish policy vis a vis the Kurds?

I hate Erdogan and the Turkish government as well but have people noticed white dudes taking a strange sort of glee with how much they hate him? I feel like I've noticed this for a long while. What is that? You don't see it quite on the same level with other tyrants of similar scumminess. Like there's no one getting off QUITE as much on how viscerally they hate say, Sisi or MBS as much as Erdo.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2018 01:36

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Yeah, I guess it's also an association with the refugee crisis, being more well known on the whole, European aspirations, and also I suppose the type of people who see Putin as a defender of white civilization would also be particularly concerned with the Encroaching Turk (just like in their strategy games and entry level history nerd-dom!!) Also maybe YPG popularity in the west.
Again just a weird observation, I think Erdogan deserves the hate it just feels like people get particularly visceral and passionate with how much they hate him compared to a lot of similar leaders around the world doing poo poo just as bad or worse.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2018 02:08

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Sidakafitz posted:

Don't understand all this hatred for PoC Hideki Tojo

Lmao

# ¿ Jan 22, 2018 01:46

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Jfc I just posed a question and then immediately concluded/concurred with the rest of y'all on what the reasons were. Sorry if this is news to you but most people on the forums are dudes and most of those dudes are white so when we discuss a majority opinion it's going to be a white dude one. Pose a curious thought and then conclude it's not a factor & you've got triggered white babies making PoC Tojo jokes.
Mayo people have the thinnest loving skin. I'm part kurd I wasn't exactly trying to defend Erdo. There's just something sick and weird about the bloodthirst with which goons cheered for the Erdogan coup.

Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jan 22, 2018

# ¿ Jan 22, 2018 02:30

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Sinteres posted:

I thought you were trolling until you called everyone Mayo people, but now I think you're totally sincere and not just trying to stir up poo poo. Thanks for clarifying.

breaking news, when surrounded by white dudes you wonder sometimes if there's something about them being white dudes that influences X or Y opinions or the passion behind said opinions. is there a weird racial angle to the Erdo hate? in this case the answer is "nah" but that poo poo gets made up elsewhere. There's undoubtedly a weird racial angle to the way some people love Putin.
mayo people is my new favorite slur and most goons (again, mostly dudes, mostly white) also probably like mayo (gross) so maybe I'm just spreading love and togetherness here.

Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jan 22, 2018

# ¿ Jan 22, 2018 03:14

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

It's cool, my phrasing was pretty troll/provocative anyway. It's always nice to be reminded of the myriad of reasons to hate Erdogan, and the idea that there's a particular western hate for him over the likes of Sisi and MBS or just...I dunno, Duterte, because he represents a significant backslide makes sense.
Although I wonder if the "coupers" would've been any less Kurd antagonistic or would've veered Turkey any nearer to better democratic principles. Weren't they just a bunch of Kemalist military dudes? Maybe we'd just have the Turkish Sisi rn.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2018 04:51

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

steinrokkan posted:

So you like Erdogan? Because otherwise why would you try to read some nonsense into that opinion if you also shared it.

I'm curious about the way crackers think

# ¿ Jan 22, 2018 10:49

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I appreciate the insinuations but of course I'd hate Erdogan whether I was Kurdish from my mother's side or not. It just adds some extra spice to the hatred.

steinrokkan posted:

The same way as everybody.

From your post to god's ears, mayo buddy

Meanwhile...
https://mobile.twitter.com/SheriffClarkeTC/status/955509547283763200

# ¿ Jan 22, 2018 20:10

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Why would nationalist Turks be specifically angry at the Trump administration? American assistance to the YPG? I mean, Flynn was trying to help them nab Gulen and had the big Erdo bucks, right?

# ¿ Jan 22, 2018 22:13

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I like maps

# ¿ Feb 4, 2018 21:59

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I'm reminded of this old article
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/26/syria-yassin-al-haj-saleh-interview/

quote:

What did you expect from the left in its response to the Syrian revolution?

It came to me as a shock, actually, that most of them have sided with Bashar al-Assad. I don�t expect much out of the international left, but I thought they would understand our situation and see us as a people who were struggling against a very despotic, very corrupt, and very sectarian regime. I thought they would see us and side with us. What I found, unfortunately, is that most people on the left know absolutely nothing about Syria. They know nothing of its history, political economy, or contemporary circumstances, and they don�t see us.

In America, the leftists are against the establishment in their own country. In a way, they thought that the U.S. establishment was siding with the Syrian revolution � something that is completely false and an utter lie � and for this reason they have stood against us. And this applies to leftists almost everywhere in the world. They are obsessed with the White House and the establishment powers of their own countries. The majority are also still obsessed with the old Cold War-era struggles against imperialism and capitalism.

Recently, an event in Rome that displayed images of those tortured and killed by Assad was attacked by fascists. Just days before, it had also been attacked in a local communist newspaper for promoting �imperialism.� There is a growing convergence between the views of fascists and the far-left about Syria and other issues. The reason for this is that perspectives on the left are outdated. They are interested in high-politics, not grassroots struggles. They are dealing with grand ideologies and historical narratives, but they don�t see people � the Syrian people aren�t represented. They are holding on to depopulated discourses that don�t represent human struggle, life, and death.

quote:

What should people on the left who have misconceptions know about Syria?

The Assad regime, the junta that rules Syria today, has transformed the country from a republic into a monarchy. As you are aware, Bashar al-Assad inherited the post of president from his father in 2000. I am not aware of a statement from one Western leftist protesting against this transformation of a republic into a monarchy. The state has become the private property of the regime, while the economy has been restructured according to the neoliberal agenda.

In the genes of this regime, it is inscribed that there must be no rights for the Syrian people. We are not citizens. We cannot say �no� to our rulers. We cannot organize, we cannot own the politics of our country, let alone organize in the public space or take part in it actively. They force us to suppress ourselves. We are, under their rule, politically speaking, enslaved.

Many on the left look at Syria and know nothing about the relationship between the Assad regime and the Western powers. The Assad regime was never a power against imperialism in the Middle East. In fact, it always sought a role for itself in the imperial game in the region. But let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that Assad was against imperialism. Even if that were the case, the Syrian people would still be a part of the deal! We as a people are not merely a tool for the narratives of the Western left. This is our country. We are not guests.

Over the past several years, there has been, in effect, a �Palestinization� of the Syrian people. We are being dealt with by the regime, and the world, as a people who will be annihilated politically. Maybe they won�t kill all of us. Many of us are still living. After all, only around half a million or so have been killed so far. But politically, they are annihilating us the same way that the Palestinians are being annihilated.

At the same time, there is a corresponding �Israelization� of the Syrian regime. The same way that Israel relies on the United States for United Nations Security Council vetoes to protect it internationally, the Syrian regime now relies on vetoes from Russia. In Israel�s conflict with the Palestinians, only one side � Israel�s � has air power. The same is true in the conflict between Assad and the opposition.

The Assad regime has become a representative of the internal First World in Syria, the Syrian whites. I think the elites in the West find Bashar al-Assad more palatable than other potential interlocutors. He wears expensive suits and has a necktie, and, ultimately, these elites prefer a fascist with a necktie to a fascist with a beard. Meanwhile, they don�t see us, the Syrian people. Those who are trying to own the politics of their own country have been rendered invisible.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2018 05:01

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

You could consider Assad an unsympathetic fascist murderer and also identify the fact that most of the Syrian Arab resistance right now is Jihadi/full of hosed up people.
There are some components in the western leftists' willingness to ironically and unironically cheer for Assad and make "funny" Assad memes that I'm contemplating but mentioning them would probably set people off just as much as the last time I proposed a person's background may influence their worldview. Myself, im a lot less willing to get meme-y when I see those brown bodies. ("IDPOOOOL :qq:

"). I can't say I'm "rooting" for anyone or anything, other than peace, or Erdogan and Assad annihilating each other. The Kurds I guess since they're the least problematic and most approaching "leftist" of the assembled groups.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2018 05:25

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

How can you be anti intervention and pro rojava when there's no way a Kurdish state could possibly exist without a foreign power backing it directly against Turkish/Syrian/Iranian/Everyone Else decimation.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2018 05:29

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Kanine posted:

the revolution in kurdistan/rojava was happening before the syrian civil war even happened dude, dont get me wrong the us airstrikes helped but the kurds arent exactly pushovers when it comes to fighting wars.

I'm aware of the history of Kurdish rebellion, and generally it's a history of being toyed around by the "great powers". I'm not trying to diminish Kurdish strength or bravery but without the intervention of some sort of foreign power there's no way the nations of which the territories of a hypothetical Kurdistan exist wouldn't all come together and quash such aspirations as they've done for ages. As they're basically trying to do right now even with (even if it's capricious) US support, embedded American troops, etc. The Kurds will keep resisting and fighting and so forth as they always have but you can't really be "pro-the existence of a Kurdish state" and "anti-foreign intervention" unless you're expecting a future situation in which Turkey, Iran, Syria, etc all suddenly become okay with increased Kurdish power.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2018 05:41

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Again I'm aware of these things but my point is that without a foreign backer any such Kurdish state however you'd describe or categorize it would be attacked on all sides by basically all regional powers, as they kind of are now, even with cynical/spotty American backing and embedded troops.
It's not just the establishment of the state, if you also support it...continuing to exist, im not sure how that works without some kind of intervention from non-neighbors.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2018 05:47

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Yeah
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/red-alert-sirens-sound-heavy-aerial-activity-in-northern-israel-1.5806508

I'm reading Beware of Small States rn incidentally and it's pretty interesting stuff. Any other reading recommendations by anyone in this clusterfuck of a thread? It's mocked in CSPAM (tho what isn't) but for real authenticity I think a thread that centers so often around the Syrian Civil War should be as dumb, hosed, and serious as the Syrian Civil War actually is. Better than the definitely hiiiiiilaaaaaarious Assad memes.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2018 06:56

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I'm curious if anyone finds this claim remotely believable
https://twitter.com/mollymhunter/status/962974769153916930

# ¿ Feb 12, 2018 10:24

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I just don't think the cycle of coups helps anyone. Morsi may have been on the rode to subverting democracy but getting the military to get rid of him did that job for him instantly and lol if you thought anything otherwise would happen.
It's similar to why I wasn't really cheering on the Erdo coup. He's a colossal piece of human garbage, but (I believe?) he remains popular among the voters and it's not like I perceived the chaos of the coup leading to a more democratic and human rights embracing situation than the one that was present.
People like to complain about interventionists but then go on cheering every internal chaotic militarist coup attempt that inevitably undermines civil society even more and leads to someone worse.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2018 18:48

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I thought the Americans were arming both sides, just way more for Saddam? Figured most countries just wanted to watch Iraq and Iran bleed each other, neither achieving any sort of absolute dominance

# ¿ Feb 22, 2018 21:28

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Are there any good histories of the iran Iraq war anyone knows? Guess I could ask in the book barn
I'd be interested to know more. Like if the Iraqis were that tactically incompetent was it just a matter of the Iranians being about as crazy + incompetent too? I mean y'all talk about the Saddam no retreat thing but the Iranians did have Suicide waves and stuff, right?

# ¿ Feb 23, 2018 04:53

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

SoggyBobcat posted:

Someone did a series of effort posts about the Iran-Iraq War in the MilHist thread in A/T, if you want to try and search for them: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3785167

*slowly dies as he starts wading thru page after page of dudes just discussing ww2 tanks* god someone talk about anything other than world wars for more than a post or two

Good point coldwar timewarp...and thanks for the reading tip Roland ill check that out, wanted some non western perspectives. I'll ask book barn too.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2018 18:56

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

catfry posted:

Polyakov did the effort posts in the MilHist thread, starting here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3785167&userid=185704&perpage=40&pagenumber=3#post469000723

Holy poo poo thank you, if I had to search through anymore of the hundreds of pages of ww2 bullshit I woulda lost my mind.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2018 19:07

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Ytlaya posted:

Regarding the topic of Assad, I feel like there's two separate opinions that are sometimes conflated. There's a difference between someone actually thinking Assad is good (or otherwise actively supported/promoting his side) and should be supported by the West, and someone just thinking that we shouldn't intervene (because it would likely make things worse). That one guy talking about secular strongmen being better than democratically elected theocrats was obviously the former, but most people on the left seem to just hold the opinion that any sort of intervention is more likely to hurt than help.

I agree in theory but so much of that Western (can't say "White"!!) Left finds it perfectly acceptable to giggle and crow about Assad and his victories and create in-no-ways-insensitive Lion assad memes. It's hard to see most of them as placid non interventionists when that line blurs.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2018 19:29

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

Lol didn't take long for the Sheriff Clarke defense

# ¿ Mar 5, 2018 19:47

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/971049937617211392

# ¿ Mar 6, 2018 17:48

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

https://twitter.com/postordinary/status/977962901368721408

# ¿ Mar 26, 2018 01:39

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

mediadave posted:

https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/980897328491122689?s=19

# ¿ Apr 3, 2018 23:34

Punkin Spunkin: Jan 1, 2010

I wonder what effect a successful assassination of Assad rn would even have...
Surely not the disintegration of the regime right? I assume there's some Assad family member or warlord/general figurehead who would pick up the reigns. I mean the regime is closer and closer to "victory" even if it's in a country they had to shatter and empty which still has areas they have no control over.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2018 16:33