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So I found a really cool thing that is very relevant to this discussion. Back in 1999 there was a short-lived animated show on the WB called "Mission Hill". It was made by a couple of the people behind the Simpsons and was intended to be a sort of "Simpsons for Generation X". It died very quickly and only 13 episodes were ever completed- as a result it stands as something of an unspoiled treasure trove of a very specific moment in the history of American culture. It represents how Generation X viewed the world as it was just coming of age during the very early rise of the Internet. This episode in particular has always struck me as a fantastic way to both illustrate how quickly society was changing and how no one really understood what was happening- but everything thought it would all turn out great in the end if you just put a little bit of effort into it. The plot of this episode is that the main character (basically a young and much hipper Homer Simpson) is unemployed and loses a tooth. He decides to go out and get a job so that he has health insurance and (he is a political cartoonist of sorts) he asks his roomate (basically a suave version of 1970's computer geeks) for help. His roomate is "the computer guy" at an advertising firm and as a result of being the only person who understands technology he is a living God who only needs to voice his displeasure over something in order to get whatever he wants. He abuses this power to get someone at his company fired so that his unemployed roomate can get hired in. So much of this is a perfect time capsule of a very specific (and admittedly very very very white) moment in American history makes this little gem well worth your 22 minutes. If you are younger and trying to get a grasp of the massive changes in our society that have occurred in the last few decades then this will give you a very fascinating piece of a huge puzzle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-1tk0o59Qc
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Nov 27, 2017 00:00
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I loving love this thread because I like to write in long-form, with paragraphs and punctuation. There was once a time where this was the most radical thing you could do on the internet: Go online and post like someone who speaks a language fluently, and so that's what we did here. I think the SA Forums are fundamentally based on opposition: The internet is loving stupid, it makes you stupid, and whatever we're doing here is always some sort of indictment of what "everyone else" is doing. I recall the beginnings of Something Awful pretty clearly. For me, the story of SA begins over at PlanetQuake, where Lowtax stood up for the first time and really made something seriously hilarious and sarcastic happen. I'm not saying he was the first, but he caught on to a basic internet premise: giving everyone access means there are dumbasses everywhere, and the no matter what they think of themselves, the poo poo they make is worth finding and then making fun of. Now that's just boring. We've been at it for 20 years. But Cranky Steve's Haunted Whorehouse was a concept that had never been done before. Collecting lovely Quake 2 maps, playing them, then writing ridiculously terrible reviews, while including a download link to experience the awfulness of what people were publishing? It was brilliant in the day, and I laughed as hard at it as I did at Jeff K. Hell, I used to run a TFC clan, and loving RADIUM used to have a feature where he'd review user-made maps by setting up a server, and just allowing the first 16 people to get in with him and review it. Boring now, revolutionary then. I felt all special when I got in and he featured my quote, acting like a noob and saying "I want to be in a tfc clam". In the early days of the internet, poo poo was insanely dumb, full of the worst ideas, the worst grammar, the dumbest people who managed to figure out how to upload pictures or video in the days before Google and Youtube and Imgur. There were so few people paying attention that anyone could get away with anything. We used to look forward to every Awful Link of the Day, because it took careful searching by our whole community as a team to find the absolute worst hidden poo poo. They were QUALITY. The problem with comedy is that it is a thing of its times and that it wears thin. What was insanely funny two decades ago is now the bottom-tier garbage of the internet. It all moves too quickly here. In the early forums, your post count was something that mattered. There was a guy called Jeddite who had the highest post count. I remember him, the first to care about fake internet karma points. Back in the day, the Tossed Salad Man was the height of comedy. Now you can't escape the flood of fake and real people pitching a profane fit on the internet, and it's boring. It was amazing long ago. These forums were a vital part of my life before 2003 or so. All the loving garbage with E-Front and Sam Jain and Lowtax's attempts to save the site, like the Korn backpack and the rest were real drama. Back in the day, they played games with the forums. The color scheme would go bonkers, or they'd act like the site had been taken over. We invented meta-humor. I'm a Something Awful chauvinist in the old sense of the word, I guess. I have enough memory of this forum's growth to believe that we originated over 50% of the ideas that form the modern internet. This place itself may be a relic of older times, but everything we started is still very much alive. To be here for so long feels like having root access to the culture of the internet itself. So what does that teach us? Perhaps the first lesson is that being the first totally contrarian site on the internet is a road to obscurity if you actually caught or set the mood of the internet as contrarian. It doesn't matter if we were the first; our offspring are far more contrarian than we were capable of being. As the internet becomes simultaneously more accessible, more contrarian, and more meta-comedic, it is inevitable that the source material for all of this bullshit will look ancient and decrepit. That's why I still visit this site every day, as I have for almost all of 20 years, but I get most of my edge off of the children and grandchildren and other descendants of SA. I think another one is that the nature of our style here will always be a negative reflection of how we think people act on the internet. Back when people were really, really stupid, typing in bad leetspeak, we were the place with the grammar and punctuation. Now that the funniest things on the internet are careposts and serious, misguided rants, our style is to tell people like Prester Jane to get out of the McDonalds drive-thru, or tell me that this was a nice meltdown. It's weak, but it's the only way we can try to be contrarian. We've done everything else. Now we're simply anti-content. Once upon a time, this actually used to be a genuinely cool place to be, like to the extent that vaguely famous people came here specifically, and we created content that crashed the whole internet. My favorite memory of the very early site and forums was Lowtax's Game Designer Survivor Island by Jeff K. I mean, here we were, with Lowtax writing this, and we had all these guys like Carmack and Romero showing up in our forums. As a collective, we made AYBABTU the thing it was, and JRR made the song. There were relationships. We used to attract all sorts of people who wanted to use SA as a springboard for being funny. Ancient stories of random people who came here to briefly tell their Bigpeeler stories, their stories about their dad being a big wheel down at the pork plant, to post their amazing photoshops and MS Paints. This used to be the place to gain the attention of the internet. The very format of this forum is a thing that keeps it stuck in the past: Modern sites make threaded shitposts and loose moderation possible, with social media integration, etc. This forum was built in ancient days for the very kind of posts that Prester Jane and I are posting. You can go long-form here. You're not restricted to 10,000 characters. I think the most important part of the history of the Something Awful forums is what all that contrarian attitude covered up: Our ability to be the smartest, most influential community on the internet. It's hidden in plain sight. By calling the internet on its bullshit for 20 years, we have developed a very fine taste for what bullshit is, how to mock it, and how, in our best times, to produce content that ISN'T bullshit. When we DO achieve that, it becomes part of the Internet's DNA, because it's gone through the most rigorous filter on the whole loving internet, (namely ourselves), and has actually been deemed funny and not worthy of just making GBS threads upon. For me, our history has been one of slow and necessary decline. We started with one of the biggest bangs any non-corporate site has ever produced. We peaked, and tried to adapt for as long as we could. For a long time, our content was the freshest on the whole drat internet. Now we have been mostly eaten by our children, but that's ok. Even the conceit that we are still around, talking like this, is a gigantic middle finger to the whole internet of things that collapse after a month or two. I don't even post my craziest ideas about our effects on the world. I am just glad to feel like I was here in some part for the beginning of all internet funny, and I mean that seriously, in the most long-form way possible.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:10
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Those political shifts and trends didn't happen quite so organically. A lot of it is about who is moderating. To understand the full story you would need to mention changes in mods. Who wants to follow that rabbit hole to Something Sensitive?
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Nov 27, 2017 00:14
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i love long cat. he was long
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Nov 27, 2017 00:41
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Quidam Viator posted:I loving love this thread because I like to write in long-form, with paragraphs and punctuation. There was once a time where this was the most radical thing you could do on the internet: Go online and post like someone who speaks a language fluently, and so that's what we did here. I think the SA Forums are fundamentally based on opposition: The internet is loving stupid, it makes you stupid, and whatever we're doing here is always some sort of indictment of what "everyone else" is doing. Thank you for this fantastic post. Its a great introduction and covers a lot of ground. As a total newbie who stupidly thought by lurking (which really was just reading PYF sagas etc) I knew *some* about SA, I have learned the last few months I know NOTHING. All I can do is try to post original content NOW. Perhaps some that have been here a while can try to document/organize something, my advice is don't be afraid to start small or specific, have a readable measure of success, and see if it grows.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:49
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Quidam Viator posted:For me, our history has been one of slow and necessary decline. Slow maybe, but I don't know if it was necessary. It came down to a choice, or a limitation in one pivotal moment: Way back in the wild days of 2010, Lowtax offered Yahtzee some money to make his ZeroPunctuation game reviews (and remember, Yahtzee was one of the first videogame YouTube personalities ever) for SomethingAwful. Instead, Yachtzee went with The Escapist because as he put it in a post "Lowtax offerered me enough money to do this for fun. The Escapist offered me enough to do it for a living." And of course, Zero Punctuation was a huge "content" hit for a website that wasn't SomethingAwful. That moment marked the start of a period where great content that would have gotten posted on the forums got posted on paid media or YouTube instead. Popular, effortful internet content was now worth real money, and even if someone wouldn't publish you, you could always go independent after you posted a thread. The Yogscast was a perfect example of that: began on the forums, jumped to their own media platform. Millions more people watched their videos than ever read these forums. Think about that. I guess what I'm saying is in an alternate universe, SomethingAwful would have monetized LPs and be some crazy media company like Vice or something. If Lowtax had given Yahtzee enough $$$ to make his vids for SA and hired the Yogscast under the SA banner it all could have been different. But I'm really glad it isn't, because I loving hate youtube personalities to this day and better an ossified platform than what the internet has become. the black husserl fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 00:51
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but now escapist is dying anyway.
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Nov 27, 2017 00:54
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The problem with the site developing new content is that instead of a creative person like Lowtax at the helm, it's currently a bunch of fussbudgets who hate things that are disruptive and new. They aren't capable of handling the strange and new and want stasis and boring political bullshit. The whole weird twitter movement which started here was and continues to be forcefully stamped out whenever it appears in GBS. Funny posters like DGSW get long, arbitrary punishments for doing absolutely nothing wrong besides being confusing and strange to the mods. Being contrarian is considered being a troublemaker now
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Nov 27, 2017 00:57
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Another interesting thing about the forums is that because of its balkanization there are all sorts of mini-sagas that get missed. The Roman/Ancient History thread had its own troll: Agesilaus. His MO was that everything in ancient Greece was better and everything since then has been derivative garbage. Like he claimed break dancing was just a rip off of some obscure Greek standing on his head. He was knowlegable enough to argue convincingly about nonsense and trolled the thread hard enough they bought an emoticon for him: 
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Nov 27, 2017 01:00
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Testikles posted:Another interesting thing about the forums is that because of its balkanization there are all sorts of mini-sagas that get missed. That guy was funny. Also an example of why people who have a different opinion shouldn't be banned unless they are actually being disruptive
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Nov 27, 2017 01:02
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OXBALLS DOT COM posted:The problem with the site developing new content is that instead of a creative person like Lowtax at the helm, it's currently a bunch of fussbudgets who hate things that are disruptive and new. They aren't capable of handling the strange and new and want stasis and boring political bullshit. You have a point, but Lowtax alone is not the answer. What worked in the past is NOT going to be "original" now. We don't know what is, until it's happened. Your main point stands, though.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:03
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Black husserl's point is perfectly legitimate, and I think it also answers itself. We COULD have postponed the decline the same way that Scary's Shugashack or ArsTechnica or reddit has by selling out to corporate. Just like with the Escapist, we could have stretched a few more content-free years out of SA. If you look at them now, they're basically just the Yahtzee show and the rest of it is dead nothing. Corporate, commercial garbage. We have always really been the Something Awful FORUMS show. You can force and compel the movement of a corporate-owned, surveillance-based site. It's pretty hard to pull that poo poo on a site built on some degree of being awful and contrarian and on a community of loving crazies throwing everything they can at the wall and hoping it sticks. I think one of the things that keeps me here is that I have nostalgia for those early, wide-eyed days of the internet, where going to a local water district's meeting because a dude there named Korn had a giant uncropped picture of himself, then getting the same guy to hold a picture saying "Please return to GBS", seriously, then posting it here, well... those days are gone. I wish I could respond to Spinster more, because Prester Jane has made an excellent thread here. I guess I still come here because the format reminds me of what the early internet looked like, and it feels like home.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:06
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Spinster posted:You have a point, but Lowtax alone is not the answer. What worked in the past is NOT going to be "original" now. The key is that usually a creative person who is actively writing is more open to new things and hopefully can recognize something as funny even if they don't understand what's going on yet because it's new and different. Having an administrator type also making editorial decisions can be problematic because administrators are all about stability and order, not creation and change. Finding the right balance is how you make an artistic collective or project work and obviously that's hard.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:06
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OXBALLS DOT COM posted:That guy was funny. Also an example of why people who have a different opinion shouldn't be banned unless they are actually being disruptive IIRC you have been banned repeatedly for being disruptive though and you have made it clear you hate effort going into a post. I'm not entirely certain this thread is the appropriate place for your crusade against the current zeitgeist of the forums.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:06
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Hemingway To Go! posted:but now escapist is dying anyway. The Escapist isn't the example of the kind of media company Something Awful could have evolved into if Lowtax had monetized all the forums content during the 2009 -2011 media upheaval period, The Escapist just had deep enough pockets to hire Yahtzee at the right time. Alternate universe SA would be like Funny or Die meets Twitch streamers. In this crazy world, SA would hired more humor writers and beaten The Onion to creating a site like ClickHole. All of that media was invented and gestated right here to some degree, but it spread to more scalable platforms as soon as they became widely available. I remember when a representative of Gas Powered Games posted in the Games kickstarter thread in like 2010 and was like "Hey! Do you guys want Chris Taylor to do an Ask Me Anything??" Nobody responded, so he was like "What gives??" and a mod explained that goons don't really do that poo poo, it's preferred that you just join like anybody else and kind of embed yourself into the community. That was an incredibly telling and true moment for me about the nature of the forums. Something Awful doesn't do scale. It doesn't do advertising. And that's all the modern internet is. the black husserl fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 01:08
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Prester Jane posted:IIRC you have been banned repeatedly for being disruptive though and you have made it clear you hate effort going into a post. I'm not entirely certain this thread is the appropriate place for your crusade against the current zeitgeist of the forums. I don't think you know me very well at all. How about keeping an open mind instead of holding some sort of internet grudge
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Nov 27, 2017 01:10
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the black husserl posted:Something Awful doesn't do scale. It doesn't do advertising. And that's all the modern internet is. That's also why it is good. The modern internet is a horrorshow.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:12
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A poster that doesn't like me much made a very good point that I try to " nanny " GBS --- he was right, and I'm going to do it now. In this thread let it go, both Oxballs and Prester Jane are expressing good points/ effortposting right now.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:14
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Being rude to people to see how they handle it is a useful technique. You can see if they are smart, funny people just pretending to be self-important or if they actually are self-important and foolish by how they react and what kind of actions they take.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:30
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OXBALLS DOT COM posted:
DGSW never made a funny post in his entire career. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 01:34
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The problem with the site developing new content is that instead of a creative person like Lowtax at the helm, it's currently a bunch of fussbudgets who hate things that are disruptive and new. They aren't capable of handling the strange and new and want stasis and boring political bullshit.
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Spinster posted:Thank you for this fantastic post. Its a great introduction and covers a lot of ground. One thing I would be really interested in hearing is how younger posters experience both SA and the Internet. Like how exactly does someone in their mid teens or mid 20's view this website? Whats it like hanging out with the Internet version of old curmudgeons? The idea of Internet oldsters still feels wild to me because outside of like obscure Usenet groups there really were no old people on the Internet during my own formative years. So I find the idea of a young person experiencing a long established multi-generation online community is really interesting to me because it is so outside of my own experiences. When I was coming up people like me (early adopters who were interested in dealing with the drudgery of managing a community) were basically the closest thing to mature (lol) adults in online communities. An effort post from a younger poster about their experiences would be a wonderful addition to this thread IMO.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:51
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the forum isnt "dying" because of a lack of content whatever that means i literally come here for the good content and im really happy that its not what it was pre 2010 or w/e because every time someone talks about that its like "oh remember all that funny racism and harassment" and im like "uh no??"
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Nov 27, 2017 01:54
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content is a word ive come to hate because its extremely meaningless like if it's supposed to just mean videos and photoshops then stop talking about the loving piss awful "jokes" and regardless whether you want photoshops or jokes or just subjectively good posts, they are generally good because they happen organically on a community not because theyre factory produced if you want that you can go to 9gag if that still exists or facebook or reddit or if you like to harass people that kiwifarms thing i guess???
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Nov 27, 2017 01:58
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I got probated multiple times for abbreviating "pretty" as p
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Nov 27, 2017 01:58
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Man, Something Awful has had a direct and massive effect on me and my life, financial and otherwise. Drawing from SA into other communities is both what made SA great and also what's probably contributed to its decline, the mine is empty and the content that is in demand isn't produced here. Although as it has been pointed out, SA has outlasted all its contemporaries even if Lowtax is dying in a mountain of supposed debt.Absum posted:the forum isnt "dying" because of a lack of content whatever that means Nah it's more nuanced than that. The content that SA did that was ironically racist/trolly/lovely was contrarian, now that sort of content is Twitter or Facebook, packaged, commoditized and posted in a hazing stinky cloud by your aunt. That's why when someone says 'cuck' everyone rolls their eyes because the word is the internet equivalent of wearing Crocs. 'SJW' is almost there too.
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Nov 27, 2017 01:59
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I met a bunch of goons irl to fauxtest a michael moore event on a college campus in boca raton. The whole point of fauxtesting was to act like you were protesting the thing but to do it in a nonsensical and funny way. everyone was chill except for this one guy who seriously hated michael moore and kept saying all this racist poo poo and ended up protesting michael moore for real. I wonder what SS poster he is now I used to read slashdot before SA existed and the trolling culture there was like proto early SA. I wonder how many goons are former slashdot trolls. I feel like I've been a goon since the very early forums because I used to follow them without my own account (using an account someone I know started that was shared between like 4 people), the torrent forum was what got me to actually register  I miss the invasions, I wish goons would still get together and troll other communities en masse but with the numbers the way they are now we would just be background noise, also that poo poo took MMO style dedication and we're all too busy
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Nov 27, 2017 02:03
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I remember being a much younger post reader and someone made a margarita machine thread. It was dozens and dozens of people straightfacedly posting enormous industrial machines and claiming they were margarita makers. They would, in great detail, talk fictional shop about these pictured machines. No one broke character and it got to like 15 pages.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:05
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Robo Turnus posted:I remember being a much younger post reader and someone made a margarita machine thread. It was dozens and dozens of people straightfacedly posting enormous industrial machines and claiming they were margarita makers. They would, in great detail, talk fictional shop about these pictured machines. No one broke character and it got to like 15 pages. That poo poo was amazing. There were also similar threads where it was spaceship parts instead of margarita machines. I tried posting a Marg Machine thread recently but only 3 people online seemed to remember what was up.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:06
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KakerMix posted:Nah it's more nuanced than that. The content that SA did that was ironically racist/trolly/lovely was contrarian, now that sort of content is Twitter or Facebook, packaged, commoditized and posted in a hazing stinky cloud by your aunt. That's why when someone says 'cuck' everyone rolls their eyes because the word is the internet equivalent of wearing Crocs. 'SJW' is almost there too. Yeah cuck jokes were funny back in like 2008 when it was still an obscure little freakshow fetish
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Nov 27, 2017 02:06
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Absum posted:the forum isnt "dying" because of a lack of content whatever that means There's definitely a lot of confirmation bias in people's memories, I think. There was a lot of good and funny stuff back in the day, but for every one gem there were a thousand posts that at best were just bland nothing and at worst were awful in one of any number of ways. But because the sheer number of active posters was so much bigger than it is now there was of course a proportionally larger number of stand out good stuff being produced as well. It's easy to imagine a sort of golden age of SA where every poster was a superstar and every post was the height of comedy and it's understandable to yearn for those days. But that version of SA was never real, and the reality has a lot more poo poo crusted on it than some people would like to admit.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:08
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lol I don't envy Lowtax, I can't imagine the number of visits he's gotten from the FBI
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Nov 27, 2017 02:09
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What I remember was between the comedy there was this sense of everyone helping each other out with whatever they were knowledgeable about, like "goon approved" stuff (which became it's own joke). This was actually really useful before endless youtube reviews of every product and service that exists. I guess we still do it but it feels less like you're part of a secret elitist club now that everyone can be an elitist with a few searches
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Nov 27, 2017 02:14
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Prester Jane posted:One thing I would be really interested in hearing is how younger posters experience both SA and the Internet. Like how exactly does someone in their mid teens or mid 20's view this website? Whats it like hanging out with the Internet version of old curmudgeons? The idea of Internet oldsters still feels wild to me because outside of like obscure Usenet groups there really were no old people on the Internet during my own formative years. So I find the idea of a young person experiencing a long established multi-generation online community is really interesting to me because it is so outside of my own experiences. When I was coming up people like me (early adopters who were interested in dealing with the drudgery of managing a community) were basically the closest thing to mature (lol) adults in online communities. An effort post from a younger poster about their experiences would be a wonderful addition to this thread IMO. FYI Its funny you quoted me because im 51 
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Nov 27, 2017 02:15
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Spinster posted:FYI Its funny you quoted me because im 51 Forums Grandma
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Nov 27, 2017 02:16
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Spinster posted:FYI Its funny you quoted me because im 51 
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Nov 27, 2017 02:17
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I don't think young people (like high school age or early college) actually post here, at all. This place must seem to them what The WELL looked like to us back in the day, boring old people being old
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Nov 27, 2017 02:20
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d0s posted:What I remember was between the comedy there was this sense of everyone helping each other out with whatever they were knowledgeable about, like "goon approved" stuff (which became it's own joke). This was actually really useful before endless youtube reviews of every product and service that exists. I guess we still do it but it feels less like you're part of a secret elitist club now that everyone can be an elitist with a few searches There are still a few things we are the best at evaluating- namely video games. Whenever I get interested in a new video game the first thing I do is check if there is a Goon thread about it because this community remains by far the best place to get an honest and nuanced appraisal of any game that has caught the communities attention. While you might find better/more specialized information about a specific aspect of a game somewhere else you won't find anywhere else that can get you started on understanding the fundamentals of a game like you can on SA. I think games is our primary source of new posters and its probably because we are just strait up the best place to have those kinds of conversations.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:22
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Nov 27, 2017 02:23
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KakerMix posted:Nah it's more nuanced than that. The content that SA did that was ironically racist/trolly/lovely was contrarian, now that sort of content is Twitter or Facebook, packaged, commoditized and posted in a hazing stinky cloud by your aunt. That's why when someone says 'cuck' everyone rolls their eyes because the word is the internet equivalent of wearing Crocs. 'SJW' is almost there too. I mean I'm sure this is true but I personally don't really care about that. Contrarianism for it's own sake isn't really funny to me, definitely not on that scale. Back when I started reading (2011 or 2012?) I remember reading a bit of some Sims? LP and thinking the word filter for human being was funny. I also remember not being very amused when I realized that the filter was only on for non-members and that everyone was actually okay with using a slur. And that was teenage me. No I'm legit here because it was a general forum that was reasonably normal, which is to say not completely up it's own rear end but also not a cesspit (also I dislike Reddit's UI and general concept and was already used to forums).
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Nov 27, 2017 02:23
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d0s posted:I don't think young people (like high school age or early college) actually post here, at all. This place must seem to them what The WELL looked like to us back in the day, boring old people being old someone did an age poll thread a few months back and there actually were a few college-aged posters here. granted i think they'd been on here since they were like 12
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