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I create this thread out of frustration. Frustration with the increasingly frequent dismissal of issues that matter to me. Frustration with how discussions around diversity and representation increasingly make me feel like I am banging my head against the wall. Dismissive attitudes seem to be becoming more common, and I believe that this will hurt our community in the long run. I want to try to explain why. Why these issues are important. Why we still have a long way to go. Why this general dismissiveness harms our ability to have these discussions. I want us to do better. I know we can do better. We need to do better. I will focus on representation of women in this post, as that is closest to me, though the main points of this post are applicable to diversity and representation discussions in general. The views presented in this post are my own - I do not claim to speak for all women or for anyone other than myself. I want to encourage everyone to stay civil in this thread. Please be mindful of the language you use to describe others, and let others explain their views instead of immediately condemning them. I very much understand that these types of threads can get very frustrating (as I mentioned; I created this thread out of such frustration), but staying civil has its value. As this thread progresses, I will update this post with links to relevant videos, articles, or posts that come up elsewhere in the thread.  Sexualization is not just some benign thing - it has real consequences. Despite this, we are increasingly dismissed as ‘looking for negatives’ or ‘prudish’. But we aren’t ‘looking for negatives’ or ‘seeing things’; these issues and their influences are simply so pervasive that it is hard not to see them.  Quiet from Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain is the most blatant example; she doesn’t wear clothes ‘because she breathes through her skin’, she makes sexy poses when you are in the helicopter with her, she doesn’t speak, and she gives off vibes of romantic interest in the male player character despite there being no logical reason for her to do so. Cindy’s outfit in Final Fantasy XV makes no sense and she is especially troubling in the context of the marketing director’s belief that criticism of the sexualization of Cindy is somehow contradictory to a desire for female party members. Middle Earth: Shadow of War for no reason at all turned Shelob (that gross huge spider from Return of the King) into a sexy shapeshifter and rejected lover of Sauron. The upcoming Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (like its predecessor X) features more than one sexed up design, and most of those characters double as objects (swords) for the player to collect - pretty much literal objectification. It is also important to note that representation issues aren’t limited to overtly sexualized designs - female characters are often in other ways treated poorly; existing not as characters, but as plot devices to be violently discarded to force an emotional punch or move the story forward. Some examples that jump to mind; Talion’s wife in Shadow of Mordor only exists to be immediately killed to provide Talion with a motivation. In Watch_Dogs, Aiden’s niece getting killed is why any of the plot happens in the first place. Aiden’s sister is only in the story to get kidnapped, and hacker ally Clara is killed off purely to force an emotional moment. All of Batman: Arkham Knight’s prominent female characters must at some point be saved by Batman - Poison Ivy in her plant panties, Catwoman with her catsuit zipper always half open. Barbara Gordon is treated especially poorly in that game - one scene depicts her getting shot by Joker in a flashback (which only serves to create extra drama between the Commissioner and Batman), another shows her apparently committing suicide for no reason other than shock value, and another yet sees her used as a bargaining chip by the villain and then tossed off the rooftop anyway. Tomb Raider features that pointless rape-y scene at the start and a bunch of overly graphic, excessively violent, almost fetishistic death animations for Lara. Lady Igraine in The Order: 1886 has a cringeworthy scene where she basically tells a throwaway NPC how much of a though female character she is - which is followed by her getting her back broken in her first (and last) real on-screen fight, and her ‘arc’ ends in a cliffhanger with her being irrationally angry at the male main character due to a misunderstanding. Quiet in Metal Gear Solid V 'breathes through her skin' because she gets burned alive and falls out of a window in the intro of the game, after which she is involuntarily subjected to cruel treatment. When she is tortured later in the game, the camera still lingers on her chest.  I am in no way claiming that these things are intentional, or that the creators behind them are sexist, or that you are wrong for enjoying these games, or that all women are bothered by these specific examples, or that these games or such depictions should be banned, or that these elements can’t ever work in any context, or that all sexualization is always bad in any context, or even that I can’t enjoy any of these games because of these things - I am merely stating that the prevalence of this type of treatment of female characters in videogames bothers me, and that I believe that we and the industry can and should do better than this.
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Dec 1, 2017 23:40
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Bump
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Dec 2, 2017 04:11
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Thank you OP.
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Dec 2, 2017 04:35
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im gay
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Dec 2, 2017 04:58
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girls being hot is Good actually
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Dec 2, 2017 05:17
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becauseEndorph posted:im gay
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Dec 2, 2017 05:17
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why did you only use female examples, where are the male sexualization examples
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Dec 2, 2017 05:21
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frajaq posted:why did you only use female examples, where are the male sexualization examples There are none
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Dec 2, 2017 06:00
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Gee I wonder if the guy that does nothing but poo poo post is trying to make a bait thread 
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Dec 2, 2017 06:02
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I felt like the shower scene from Gears of War was really arousing. Just three musclebound nude-dudes built like Cavity Creeps taking a well-deserved hot shower. You could even tell that their "practice kissing" had a greater emotional impact than they were willing to admit. 
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Dec 2, 2017 06:06
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Maybe just stick to the topic of the thread?
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Dec 2, 2017 06:16
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Tits are cool and if you don’t think so maybe you should play one of the literally hundreds of games that come out every year without this “problem.”
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Dec 2, 2017 06:18
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Proper representation matters. This is why games like The Last of Us and Horizon Zero Dawn are so drat important to me - games featuring female characters who aren’t just there to motivate the male player character, who aren’t sexualized, who aren’t treated as objects, and who aren’t violently discarded for a cheap emotional punch. We need more games like that from the AAA industry
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Dec 2, 2017 06:23
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Closed-Down Pizza Parlor posted:girls being hot is Good actually
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Dec 2, 2017 06:33
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Liquid Drink posted:Proper representation matters. This is why games like The Last of Us and Horizon Zero Dawn are so drat important to me - games featuring female characters who aren’t just there to motivate the male player character, who aren’t sexualized, who aren’t treated as objects, and who aren’t violently discarded for a cheap emotional punch. We need more games like that from the AAA industry Who decides what’s “proper?” You? The duly elected members of the Tumblr senate? Nobody in the AAA space gives a poo poo about this stuff because AAA games sell overwhelmingly to men who like shooting things in the face and tits. This is not going to change, so I really would encourage you to seek out content from small and mid level teams, rather than focusing on counting skirts vs dongs in unfathomably risky 50m+ investment vehicles with traditionally male audiences. I will concede the tiniest point to you in saying that TLoU did diversity right, in that everything about it felt natural, and not like a shoehorned mandate from some uber woke rear end in a top hat in management.
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Dec 2, 2017 06:33
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bloodysabbath posted:Who decides what’s “proper?” You? The duly elected members of the Tumblr senate? Nobody in the AAA space gives a poo poo about this stuff because AAA games sell overwhelmingly to men who like shooting things in the face and tits. This is not going to change, so I really would encourage you to seek out content from small and mid level teams, rather than focusing on counting skirts vs dongs in unfathomably risky 50m+ investment vehicles with traditionally male audiences. Progress is being made, but it is slow. This generation has brought us female protagonists through DLC or stand-alone expansions or spin-offs. The Last of Us: Left Behind, Infamous: First Light, Uncharted: The Lost Legacy, Dishonored: Death of the Outsider. Iden Versio - though not the only playable character - was the face of the Battlefront II campaign marketing, and Dishonored 2 let you choose between Emily and Corvo. The Last of Us II focuses on Ellie and its second trailer was a scene between three female characters. Horizon Zero Dawn is a AAA budget, properly marketed new IP that gave us an exclusively female player character in Aloy. Progress is being made, and that should be celebrated. But this progress did not appear out of nowhere, and not without resistance. Elizabeth was nowhere to be seen on the cover of Bioshock Infinite, which creator Ken Levine justified by saying they “… did a tour… around to a bunch of, like, frathouses and places like that. People who were gamers.” and that there was a belief that those ‘real gamers’ wouldn’t buy a game with a girl on the cover. When Dontnod Entertainment was looking for a publisher for Remember Me, they were told by several publishers that ‘You can't have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that.’. They faced similar pushback when looking for a publisher for Life is Strange - “We had other publishers telling us 'Make it a male lead character,' and Square didn't even question that once.”. The original Battlefield 1 pitch was essentially ‘WW1, but screw realism; we’re adding female soldiers because we are way overdue.’. This was eventually dropped, because ‘All that [prototype weapons, how tanks function, parachute lethality rates, etc.] is believable but female soldiers are not, to the core audience of boys.’. Even after The Last of Us and Left Behind, Sony was still worried about Horizon Zero Dawn having a female protagonist. Progress is absolutely happening, but it is important to recognize that there is still a long way to go. The ideas that ‘gaming is for boys’ or that female leads are a ‘financial risk’ are apparently still common in the game industry, and the lack of diversity makes it hard for those mindsets to be changed purely from within. This is why we need to keep having these discussions on representation and diversity.
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Dec 2, 2017 06:35
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Breaking: Publishers want to publish games that sell well. In other news, water is wet. I know I'm being dismissive, but the fact is that women make up a negligible portion of gamers who buy AAA games. That isn't changing any time soon, no matter how much progressive circle jerking anyone does. ScratchAndSniff fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Dec 2, 2017 |
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Dec 2, 2017 06:38
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ScratchAndSniff posted:Breaking: Publishers want to publish games that sell well. My point is having more diversity and representation would not equate to lost sales.
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Dec 2, 2017 06:38
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This is a masterfully well done troll thread and I fell for it.
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Dec 2, 2017 06:40
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Liquid Drink posted:My point is having more diversity and representation would not equate to lost sales. I disagree. Source: Gamergate
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Dec 2, 2017 06:41
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see: Lawbreakers
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Dec 2, 2017 06:41
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update: still gay
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Dec 2, 2017 07:19
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Endorph posted:im gay hmm Endorph posted:update: still gay oh good
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Dec 2, 2017 07:34
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ScratchAndSniff posted:That isn't changing any time soon is a very common and incredibly weakdick response offered in a spectrum of issues, sorry. not speaking to you specifically, but internet alpha male posturing and crying SJW/tumblr whenever someone brings this stuff up is so tiring. i'm happy there are indie titles getting recognition for portraying women as people and not titboxes, and it sucks that's even a thing to be celebrated. long story short, humanity is largely a depressing feedback loop of comfortable ignorance and loathing, and ScratchAndSniff posted:That isn't changing any time soon
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Dec 2, 2017 08:47
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I think female characters should be written well and if they aren't it sucks.
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Dec 2, 2017 08:49
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spider wisdom posted:is a very common and incredibly weakdick response offered in a spectrum of issues, sorry. not speaking to you specifically, but internet alpha male posturing and crying SJW/tumblr whenever someone brings this stuff up is so tiring. i'm happy there are indie titles getting recognition for portraying women as people and not titboxes, and it sucks that's even a thing to be celebrated. long story short, humanity is largely a depressing feedback loop of comfortable ignorance and loathing, and Exactly.
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Dec 2, 2017 09:14
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Closed-Down Pizza Parlor posted:girls being hot is Good actually I disagree
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Dec 2, 2017 13:03
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If you don't like existing games make some you do like, OP. Don't expect everyone else to cater to your whims. Also lol at getting upset because of anime boobs you sex-negative prude.
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Dec 2, 2017 13:10
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ugh its Troika posted:If you don't like existing games make some you do like, OP. Don't expect everyone else to cater to your whims. Lol at getting upset that someone badmouth your fav game.
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Dec 2, 2017 13:18
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This was from reset era, discretion is advised.
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Dec 2, 2017 14:20
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Didn't read, OP. Gaming is good as it is now.
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Dec 2, 2017 14:40
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Well the thread title appears depressingly accurate. 
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Dec 2, 2017 15:15
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Poil posted:Well the thread title appears depressingly accurate. quote:I make 80k a year and have no qualms spending some money to get ahead in a game. You poor loving retards should stop QQing because you lost a match. and whose op is a literal copy/paste from a different forum. not taking this thread seriously truly is an indictment of our standards as a culture
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Dec 2, 2017 15:20
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spider wisdom posted:is a very common and incredibly weakdick response offered in a spectrum of issues, sorry. No more weakdick than talking about an issue and pretending that a consensus on a dead internet message board can have literally any effect on a massive industry. Sure, it makes you feel better about it, but when people feel better they pat themselves on the back and do nothing. There just isn't much you can do as a consumer except vote with your wallet or join the industry (good luck!). If you want to arrange a large boycott on negative portrayals in games or do literally anything constructive, say so up front BEFORE the wall of text. If anyone does something constructive through an SA discussion, though, I'll be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong.
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Dec 2, 2017 15:34
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I.N.R.I posted:I disagree that's ok
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Dec 2, 2017 17:13
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Poil posted:Well the thread title appears depressingly accurate. Tell me about it. People are so eager to not be inclusive and scream and cry that they like video games the way they are now and under no circumstances should things even try to be better. It’s sad.
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Dec 2, 2017 19:27
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In an interview with Glixel, Naughty Dog’s Neil Druckmann said that some male focus testers for Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End got very upset by Nadine overpowering Nathan, and very upset at Nathan’s kid in the epilogue being a girl. “… we had to ask one guy to leave. In his core, it just affected him. He was cursing, "Not you, too, Naughty Dog! Goddammit. I guess I'm done with Uncharted, if you guys ever make another one, with his daughter. This loving bullshit.” Naughty Dog previously had to step in and specifically request female focus testers during the development of The Last of Us. The ‘women don’t play games’-mindset seems to dictate what groups are by default included in focus testing. This leads to voices like the one above getting amplified, while others often remain unheard. The same research firm behind that focus testing also told Naughty Dog that Ellie should be removed from the cover of the game (which Naughty Dog, thankfully, refused). Druckmann has said in the past that he was influenced by Feminist Frequency and the larger conversation about diversity and representation. The Last of Us, Left Behind, Uncharted 4, The Lost Legacy, and The Last of Us Part II show that influence. “When I'm introducing and describing a new character to our lead character concept artist, constantly she will ask, "What if it was a girl?" And I'm like, Oh, I didn't think about that. Let me think, does that affect or change anything? No? Cool, that's different. Yeah, let's do it. Initially, in the epilogue, it was Nate's son. Something similar happened with the mansion they go into. That was an old English guy's house. She asked, Well, what if it was a woman?” Female voices in the industry and open discussion on diversity and representation can help change mindsets and lead to tangible progress. But these discussions seem increasingly harder to have.
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Dec 2, 2017 19:33
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Liquid Drink posted:Tell me about it. People are so eager to not be inclusive and scream and cry that they like video games the way they are now and under no circumstances should things even try to be better. It’s sad. What needs to be better are the games themselves. Lets start by killing everyone at Naughty Dog one by one until they make a new Crash game instead of Uncharted rear end cancer.
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Dec 2, 2017 21:30
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Dec 2, 2017 21:52
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frajaq posted:why did you only use female examples, where are the male sexualization examples 
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Dec 2, 2017 22:12
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