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Mahoning posted:Remember that period of time when our society was smugly patting itself on the back and mocking the Catholic Church after that whole fiasco was uncovered? Like "oh man we totally weeded out that single isolated powerful organization that ignores and covers up child sex abuse!". How naive were we to think that this epidemic didn't likely infect pretty much every single large organization that has the power and opportunity to take advantage of children (or women, or any sort of at-risk portion of the population). Obviously the solution is to have the pope, the leader of US college sports, and the UK PM fight each other.
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Jan 23, 2018 17:10
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Can you think of anything that encourages extreme competitiveness that doesn't also produce terrible people?
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Jan 23, 2018 17:12
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Functionally I highly doubt he is going to live very long and is likely to die in a rather more painful and quite possibly expedient manner than if he is executed.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:57
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PT6A posted:I get that it's normal to want this bastard to suffer a horrible fate -- I mean, god knows I certainly do -- but, as with any awful criminal, we should treat him humanely and ethically. He did these things because he was unable to grasp the fact that just because he wanted something, doesn't mean he should act on his desire. In punishing him, we must make sure we do not do the same thing. I mean, on the other hand, I think possibly it's a lot worse if you molest hundreds of girls than murder the person who molested hundreds of girls. Like the two don't really have much moral equivalence I don't think. Like sure great an upstanding and just legal system would be dandy but as we haven't got one, the lovely brutalizing one we do have really couldn't happen to a nicer person in this instance.
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Jan 24, 2018 19:50
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Again, like, in general sure but in this specific instance I really don't care what horrible things happen to the fucker.
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Jan 24, 2018 20:01
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I'm not sure the sentiment there is that perpetual solitary confinement is unfair, merely that it is extremely unpleasant.
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Jan 24, 2018 20:43
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Eh, I would take the position that viciousness is the appropriate response on some occasions, rare ones, but they are there. Some people, ideas, and institutions are exceptionally detestable and all three appear present in this case. It is entirely possible for hatred of the perpetrators to be motivated by an affinity for the ideals they ignore or the people they hurt, and that's a form of empathy.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 20:49
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gaj70 posted:IDK. The thing is nobody 'forces' athletes do anything. In the end, it's the competitive drive of the people doing it and the essential zero-sum nature of the endeavor; it's old Mike Tyson line about why he was out running at 4:30 am: "Because I know that while I train, my opponent is still sleeping.” Trainers/coaches, at best, help draw out that last ounce of will-power. You can always say not today... you just don't want to do so. And for that reason, I've literally ran until I threw up. Perhaps that attitude does not sprint forth fully formed from the ether and indelibly implant itself in the mind of a random baby at the moment of its birth?
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Jan 25, 2018 16:37
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gaj70 posted:No idea. What does the science say? I mean I'm going to take a wild guess and say that science generally says that complex social behaviour is heavily socialized... You are not born knowing how to behave in society.
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Jan 25, 2018 17:08
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Flip Yr Wig posted:I don't really see how position wouldn't be just as liable to be exploited as any other trusted authority figure. Like Hieronymous Alloy mentioned, Nassar was regarded as these childrens' advocate. You really need to have people with pre-existing relationships outside these institutions being more heavily involved. You could do a lot to help that by putting them materially at odds with the other people that their charges are going to encounter, the whole sport community seems really grossly incestuous and someone who has a material reason not to be involved or have an affinity for the rest of the sporting world might help, that way the theoretically decent sport people keep an eye on the chaperone and the chaperone keeps an eye on the sport people. Rather than relying on this lousy system where everyone is mates with everyone else and is willing to cover for everyone else because they all want to be part of this big lovely sporting organization. Something like rigorous financial and social insulation from the sporting organization. The chaperone would need background checks to make sure they have no relatives or whatever involved with it and credit/bank checks to make sure they're not taking money from them. It's not much but that introduction of people who have no interest in getting involved with the system could help. That or as said just burn the whole loving thing down it'd be no big loss. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jan 25, 2018 |
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Jan 25, 2018 17:27
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jabby posted:As a doctor myself I would change that last part to 'especially doctors'. Most of the time people don't know their doctor personally, and as this case evidences doctors have a whole raft of plausible excuses for doing things that would be barn-door abuse in any other circumstance. And considering having a chaperone protects us from false accusations just as much as it protects the patient, there's really no reason not to routinely use chaperones. What do you think would be a good source for chaperones? Obviously random people off the street a lot of patients aren't going to be comfortable with, and other doctors might create a conflict of interest. Perhaps nurses?
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Jan 25, 2018 18:02
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What do you do if the kid is uncomfortable having other people observing? I know I would have been really really not OK with that when I was young. Frankly I'm not exactly comfortable with it as an adult either though I understand the necessity of it.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:15
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That seems fair, that's what I got when I was in pediatrics as a patient. It is as you say, difficult. I guess that's impetus to try and attack the issue in other ways, changing attitudes to make reporting more reliable and putting more material power in the hands of potential victims.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:35
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Mahoning posted:Well patient discomfort is a symptom of the larger issue here, isn't it? Teen girls' discomfort with their own bodies and the inability to talk about sexual matters is one of the very things Larry Nassar preyed on. Some of the girls who gave impact statement flatly stated that they were too embarrassed to talk to their parents about it and Nassar knew that. Well, I mean, I don't know if that's necessarily the reason for discomfort, if you regard your body as being very personal to you it's not something you want to share with random people. I'm not uncomfortable with my body but I definitely, especially as a kid felt that it was very much my own business and not something I wanted people prying into unless I trusted them. It's not necessarily a sign of discomfort or body dysphoria as much as it can be an indication that people feel a strong sense of possession about something that really definitely should be theirs, hence the quandary in respecting that. You can essentially be telling people that no, their sense of bodily ownership is subordinate to other people, and that's something I'm not sure I think is good to encourage? Of course you could have reasons for being uncomfortable with intimacy that are also harmful to you, but the long term solution to that I think has to be preventing those feelings from forming. So, yeah smash the patriarchy basically. I dunno, gently caress it's a difficult thing to put your mind into. PT6A posted:This brings back to memory a story I heard. Apparently, a paediatrician administered a rectal exam to "check for abuse" without the parent in the room, using the explanation that it might be one of the parents who is involved in any abuse. I don't believe there had been any accusations of such. Unless I'm misremembering, statistically the abuser is likely to be someone in a position of authority and quite possibly a parent or close relative, so as a blind assumption is'a honestly quite reasonable. Most parents aren't abusers, but a distressing proportion of abusers are parents. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 25, 2018 |
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Jan 25, 2018 18:47
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Isn't an osteopath a bone doctor? E: Huh, no apparently it's basically just the word for people who like pretending to be physiotherapists. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 16:40
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"Think of the kids" is a weird way to argue against rooting out people who harbour child molesters.
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Jan 26, 2018 17:50
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The entire concept of further/higher education in sports is just loving bizzare from a UK perspective. Like sure schools have sports teams but they're not, like, important and you don't go to school to do sports.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:00
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Delthalaz posted:What I don’t get is why they protected this Nasser guy so much. it’s not like he was the coach or some irreplaceable public figure. He was just the sleazy doctor. You’d think just for purely selfish reasons they’d care more about the athletes than some no-name doc. Because having a known nonce in the organization harms it, it's better to keep covering it up forever rather than risk outing it at any point, no this can never backfire what are you talking about? The athletes, ultimately, don't matter to the organization, there is a very large supply of them as has been illustrated and they can be easily replaced, but people are less inclined to put money into it if they find out that it's a big molestation racket. Basically 
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Jan 27, 2018 19:08
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Mahoning posted:I find this line of thinking useless. Not because I give a poo poo whether MSU Athletics is wiped off the face of the earth or not, but because it takes our focus away from the people that did this and puts the onus on the institution. The two aren't exclusive, everyone involved goes to the wall, the program is liquidated.
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Jan 27, 2018 19:55
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Mahoning posted:The rape culture on US college campuses is hardly unique to MSU or MSU Athletics. Are you advocating that we eliminate all colleges and universities? I mean, uh, if they are basically big rape factories it might be a net gain?
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Jan 27, 2018 20:18
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It's not like you can't... I dunno, build new ones. Different people, different organizations, different founding principles. Pretty standard regime change.
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Jan 27, 2018 20:18
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Yeah I mean if you start with the assumption that this is normal for college then I don't really see how you come to the conclusion that they can be allowed to continue? It might not affect you but it would seem to affect a shitload of other people?
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Jan 27, 2018 20:22
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Shame he didn't achieve it but probably best for him in the long run.
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Feb 2, 2018 18:00
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Well your organization letting say, ten rapes go undealt with is bad if people find out about it, so at that point why not cover up hundreds? Also they aren't actually paying a cost yet, a bunch of rich twats have resigned and will land in other rich twat jobs, that's how it works. Their job was to keep it running for years and they did.
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Feb 8, 2018 19:54
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LeJackal posted:A capitalist matriarchy would be as sexually abuse ridden, and an sexually egalitarian capitalist system would likewise be full of abuse. Quite possibly, but I think the point is that we don't actually live on a planet from star trek, we live on a planet that at this present time, has both wealth dominance and male dominance, and getting rid of one won't get rid of the other.
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Feb 10, 2018 14:50
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mastershakeman posted:Three of the four major enablers of Nasser were women. The whole system is corrupt Patriarchy doesn't strictly mean that men do everything bad.
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Feb 10, 2018 14:57
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I mean the involvement of money certainly looks like a big part of the problem, it's a massive incentive for everyone involved to protect the organization and their careers at the expense of the athletes, but equally there is clearly a cultural idea at play that also is convincing them that this is an acceptable decision to make, that the abuse of the women and girls involved doesn't matter so much, which definitely smells rather patriarchal.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Feb 10, 2018 |
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Feb 10, 2018 19:32
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I mean personally I find it more disturbing when people cover up literally hundreds of incidences of child molestation than when dave doesn't tell his boss he saw bob stealing paperclips.
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Feb 10, 2018 23:05
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I remain absolutely unable to care what happens to the fucker as long as it involves him not being around anybody else for the rest of his life, however long or short that might be. I think my capacity for empathy ends at maybe the five instances of child molestation mark. Maybe sooner!
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Feb 11, 2018 02:38
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What on earth is justice in this case? What possible justice can anyone offer? He's an unrepentant piece of poo poo who has committed grievous crimes on a mass scale, and the only thing anyone can do is to get rid of him in the most expedient fashion possible and set the absolute most severe example for anyone else like him. Lock him up and throw away the key, shoot him, hang him draw him and quarter him I don't give a poo poo, it makes gently caress all difference, none of it will be justice. Put him out of society in whatever fashion you like, and find out who else is responsible and where else this is happening. There is plenty that can be done that is productive but none of it involves him at this point.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 03:28
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In his case you don't fight it with sentencing at all. Sure, I can, if I stretch, imagine that maybe there are people wandering around who are just too loving dumb to realise it's wrong and reeducation might stop them doing it again, maybe even make a productive, non raping person out of them. We can dream, but in this instance I fail to see what the hell difference his sentencing makes other than getting him out of a position where he can keep doing it? I just don't see why anyone should care about what happens to him beyond that? What difference will it make? If it makes you feel good about yourself sure put him in a nice place, whatever, it won't make a blind bit of difference. Personally if he'd done this poo poo to me I'd want blood, and that wouldn't be justice either but I'd feel better as a result. And I don't think the life of someone who has molested hundreds of children matters enough to care whether it's given. Many crimes it does matter, not this one, the world will not suffer from systemic problems if we stopped caring about the welfare of people who molest hundreds of children. If locking him up is justice then the word justice is a joke. There is simply no way he can repay what he's taken from people, no way you can make this fair or right, there is no justice in this case. Even if you found out everyone responsible for this and the doubtless many other similar cases as yet unheard, and locked every last one of them up, tore down the institutions, cursed their memory and salted the earth, you could not make this right, only stop it happening again. That's no reason not to do it anyway, but calling it justice is foul. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 03:34
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I think I disagree with possibly 100% of that post. Justice is absolutely a thing that can exist in many cases and we should aspire to it, and babby's first existentialism is not an excuse to the contrary. But there are also instances where it is wholly beyond any human power to achieve and this is an example of it. I think this bastard has done enough harm and is so far beyond atoning for it that I'd be more than happy to just ask the people who testified against him what would help them get on with their lives and have that be his sentence, that way his worthless life can do something useful at least. I'd also suggest that given what this case indicates, the magnitude of exploitation it suggest is rife in our society, that it, if nothing else already has, should inspire absolute hatred in onlookers for the institutions and people that facilitate this kind of thing. This case suggests absolutely staggering amounts of abuse and exploitation is occuring constantly. If people get angry about capitalism and poo poo ruining lives then they should be just as loving furious about this. That anger is not childish, it's a very appropriate response to seeing and understanding the magnitude of the wrongs being done by the society we live in, the society we're forced to be complicit with for as long as it keeps doing this to people. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 05:30
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Flayer posted:You can't argue that punishment rape is justice "in this instance" with any integrity. If you start justifying rape as a just way of punishing criminals it won't be Nassar who's the victim, it will be all of society when down the line the same punishment is meted out because somebody felt "in this instance" was justified a million different times. You're encouraging barbaric behaviour to flourish as a normal part of justice and society and that has horrific implications for everyone. I have absolutely no difficulty maintaining a separation between people who willingly, hundreds of times, abuse and exploit the vulnerable purely for their own gratification, and people who may be pushed to crime for reasons outside their control. In the latter case a rehabilitative justice system is desirable and good for society, in the former case, I have no patience whatsoever for people arguing for the sanctity of a justice system which has so clearly and utterly failed so many people and has no possible way to give them back what was taken. I'm perfectly able to advocate against capital punishment, in favour of rehabilitative sentencing, and for good conditions in the case of 99% of crimes, crimes committed under mitigating circumstances and as symptom of a societal failing, and for which a person might reasonably atone in future, but I no reason at all to believe that this shithead is one of those, you don't molest hundreds of children for fun from a position of power and privilege without knowing it's wrong, without choosing as freely as any choice can be made to do it. That person does not deserve consideration and when justice has so clearly failed I would rather offer vengeance if it was wanted by the victims than prattle on about the precious sanctity of the justice system.
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Feb 11, 2018 15:34
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That entire idea of trusting in the system to do its job and protect people has failed, when a man is finally sent to prison after committing hundreds of crimes against children over his career that's not a success, that's clearly an abject failure, because people trusted that the system would do its job. Clearly it does not. If more people didn't believe in that maybe someone would have gone outside it and gotten attention sooner, or hell just loving offed the bastard much earlier. That would be a manifestly better result than letting it get to this point. I can't see how someone looks at this and thinks "well what we need to do is maintain trust in the process, the process is more important than individuals." And lol at the idea that someone "losing their career and maybe getting prosecuted" is fair recompense for being directly complicit in facilitating this poo poo. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 16:00
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mastershakeman posted:Maybe also getting prosecuted is the key phrase. These people are all rich and can probably bounce back in a few years to another good job (or look at Simon, she gets paid 750k a year after stepping down). Last I checked, guys like Weinstein aren't being prosecuted for what they did, and since there's less evidence against Simon, Geddert, Marta, etc they're even less likely to be prosecuted which is absolutely terrible and just perpetuates all this. loving exactly, one man, after commiting crimes of an almost incomprehensible magnitude, has been sent to prison. But surely that suggests there are many more like him, and even more who are not quite as bad but still committing heinous offenses against people all the time. What is the justice system going to do about them? What protection is it going to offer to their victims? Clearly it's incapable of even finding out about them, much less prosecuting them. At the very least, it shows a need for alternative systems to get these claims out there and heard. You can't rely on organizational procedure as it stands. Some kind of women's union perhaps that can threaten the organizations they work in to pay attention or face direct action. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 16:04
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ChairMaster posted:Well none of us are gonna stop you from going all vigilante justice and throwing molotov cocktails into the rooms of sleeping sports administrators or whatever, but I for one am gonna laugh at you when you end up dead or in prison for it. I mean if you wanted to restart suffragette style bombing and arson to force action I would hardly call it unjustified at this point.
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Feb 11, 2018 16:25
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Oh wow yeah "god will fix it" that's a great sentiment.
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Feb 11, 2018 18:32
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I was more arguing that he is empirically one of the worst human beings alive at the moment rather than that I just personally dislike him.
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Feb 11, 2018 18:36
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I've already stated that I think the best thing to do with him is ask his victims what they want done with him, I doubt they'd pick that as their preferred sentencing. Personally I'd just shoot him and be done with it. But as he's getting the sentence he's got, I just... don't care. I'm not able to care about someone that awful, about someone so consciously and consistently void of giving a poo poo about others, so persistently willing to just take what they want without thought. If you can care about that sort of person then, well, great. I can't, I wouldn't begin to know how to start. Cos to me it's completely dehumanizing, completely antithetical to what makes people people. All I can think of is living around that sort of person, what they'd do to me and the people around me given half a chance. And I simply don't at all understand people looking at this mess and their first concern being "best not be too cruel to the bastard who did it". People moved to violence over this I get. People who call for moderation and trust in the system in the face of its failure, I don't. People have been doing that for years and this case is their repayment. It's not enough. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Feb 11, 2018 |
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Feb 11, 2018 18:54
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I think the point we disagree on is that "basic humanity" includes people who do what he did. Cos I'm not sure someone who does that has any.
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Feb 12, 2018 02:16
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