TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Simian_Prime posted:

Feels like all that�s needed to pull the rug out from Paizo is for Wizards to release a setting that�s explicitly �D&D, but in Space.�

That was assume Wizards wants to use D&D for anything other than as a product to keep the brand warm while holding their essentially permanent stake in the market. Only recently did they even start making D&D stuff set in some of the MtG settings. If there's any sort of vision in Wizards, it's squarely part of their MtG brands and far, far away from their D&D brands.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2018 03:16

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 13:27

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Fuego Fish posted:

3D wasn't the issue, it was the whole momentum thing. I got about two iterations into this subsystem for pushing off walls and stuff when I thought "hang on this is needlessly complex".

3d movement with zero g inertia would be extremely weird when put onto a grid without a computer running the calculations.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2018 22:53

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

3d movement in and of itself isn't hard. It's the inertia that's hard. First off, assume everyone can air brake unless they do the equivalent of a dash where they get extra movement. Every hit/attack has knockback and recoil based on die or damage or something. Bouncing off of stuff voluntarily, should just be part of movement with a movement bonus equal to Str modifier but maybe be a feat or something. Involuntary bouncing should just be up to someone and just move in some direction away from the initial movement.

idk what else is necessary

# ¿ Feb 18, 2018 06:35

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

hyphz posted:

If it was just �you need other people to play� then board games would have the same problem. It�s more about pre-investment (CCGs and minis) and long term commitment (RPGs). I know a fair number of game club organisers who hate RPGs because they create isolated closed groups of players for every meeting for months on end.

The funny thing about RPGs is that they could totally be organized like board games where it's 2-6 hours of people at a table with their character sheets, their resolution system of choice and whatever visual or textual aids that they need with single sessions being more or less one and done things. This is the sort of culture Japan has with their RPGs where, rather than having a series of shorter sessions over the course of months or years, it's one or two extended sessions that go from start to finish. You can see this in the Double Cross and Tenra Bnasho books that got translated as they explain the general flow of a game where, in the former, players are totally expected to burn themselves out and go out with a bang by the end of the session as part of the climax. This is built into the system and written as the intended mode of play.

The Western RPG campaign style, in a sense, operate like the long running series that are the norm in the US which are generally run until a conclusion is forced by external events or because every just gets bored and wants to move one. It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, but it is

# ¿ Mar 1, 2018 23:26

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Plutonis posted:

You'd think Hinduism would be more categorized now since it's the largest polytheistic religion that managed to survive until today but I guess the fact that there is no central authority for it makes it hard.

You'd also think that the religion/mythology that's based around being an organized and bureaucratic system would also be extremely organized, but that's not quite the case either.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2018 23:41

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow is a pretty clear example of Dieselpunk. Also The Rocketeer.

Edit: Basically retro futurism with roughly 20s to 40s aesthetics. Steampunk is Victorian aesthetics while Atompunk/Ray gun gothic is 50s.

Xelkelvos fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Mar 4, 2018

# ¿ Mar 4, 2018 00:59

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

I don't know how much (or less) they're going to change things for PF2, but at least as far as the PF1 Unchained version goes:

Yes, you're correct that this allows all characters to do a two-to-three attack multi-attack at level 1. It's arguably a large buff to monsters and a nerf to martials, since now every class can attack the maximum number of times (thrice), and martials lose their fourth attack at +16 BAB and beyond.

Another distortion is that classes that rely heavily on Swift Actions, such as Investigators, tend to lose under this model because formerly Swift Actions always cost 1 Act. In the few discussions I've seen about these rules, people tend to side towards needing to "recreate" Swift Actions anyway.

I assume they'll probably do something like giving Fighters a free attack action (with or without penalties) when they hit a certain level or a 2 Act attack that makes three hits or something. There's certainly the room there at least to do something like that I think. Of course, there's similarly the space which allows Wizards to potentially reduce the number of components in a spell by 1 to a minimum of 1.

# ¿ Mar 8, 2018 21:14

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

I think by pure math, fighters still throw damage around like nobody's business, it's just that they're incapable of doing anything else and idk if they care to realize it.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2018 21:54

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Arivia posted:

It's been mixed sometimes, sure, but Paizo's design team has consistently gone on the record as having a better eye for things than you'd think. They've been pretty upfront about how they're carrying 3.5 baggage they deliberately didn't eject for compatibility reasons in the first edition of Pathfinder, and that they can do better. This is their chance to fix that, and being aware of the actual issues with their system is a good step.

Being aware of actual issues and actually fixing them in lieu of fan backlash are two different things and poo poo like being forced to use an action to open a door shows a lack of the former while keeping the Wizard, at higher levels, Master of Most trades is indicative of the latter.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2018 23:17

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

I've never played pathfinder because it looks like a slog to me but "it takes a move action to open a door!!!" is exactly the sort of flippant non-criticism that everyone here complained about re: 4e. No RPG system lives and dies by how quickly a character can open a door relative to how quickly they can attack.

Fwiw, if Path was a game that had extremely tight action economies, it'd be a big deal. It's not, so it's fairly trivial on the whole and exists more as an annoying quality of life thing like trying to shelve game book that's printed in a nonstandard size. It's a relatively trivial problem to solve and an odd design choice on the whole, but that it's an issue in the first place is what makes it stick out.

Arivia posted:

Okay let's try this a different way to make it clearer: I don't think anyone actually involved in the original Pathfinder 1e playtest was concerned about it taking a move action to open a door. That's not an issue for the people who actually play Pathfinder and enjoy it - the target audience all along.

edit: Like Pathfinder is still gonna be Pathfinder no matter what 2e looks like. It's still gonna be a rules-heavy lots of options game for people that like the game 3.5 was. And Pathfinder 1e was even more so because it was built guaranteeing backwards compatibility. I'm not sure why you'd get upset expecting it to suddenly be a completely different game with a different approach when it's never pretended to be anything else.

Sunk cost fallacy is a hell of a drug. Calling out and eliminating LFQW is definitely a good hill to die on imo.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2018 23:39

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Arivia posted:

Sunk cost fallacy is what all the complaining about the new edition breaking compatibility is coming from. That's different from a design decision to guarantee compatibility as part of ensuring a popular and profitable game line.

Again, if you don't like Pathfinder that's fine. And I don't think the Pathfinder players on this forum are going to disagree with you that LFQW is a problem with Pathfinder in general. But screaming at that and that only as the sole sacred cow that needs MUST be killed in the new edition when Paizo has already talked about how much else they're doing that reflects the game they've made and how it's played is really short-sighted and doesn't reflect well on you as someone actually interested in the playtest in good faith.

Part of the reason that I was and continued to be turned off by Path (and D&D) is the existence of LFQW. Part of looking in on the playtest for 2e is looking to see if an attempt to kill said sacred cow is killed and how or what the justification is to not kill it beyond some mealymouthed reasoning of it being part of Path's "identity."

# ¿ Mar 9, 2018 23:52

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Arivia posted:

Great, so wait for that. Don't whine when the designers are dealing with the other issues and giving their existing audience details on those as well.

I mean, no. I'll "whine" about seemingly bad design decisions when I see them, and if you don't like them, :dealwithit:

just like I know you'll whine when someone brings up LFQW for the upteenth time.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2018 00:12

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

The solution at this juncture to resolve LFQW is to just remove pure Martials.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2018 08:48

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

remusclaw posted:

The problem is it needs to be a market leader so I can have anyone to play it with.

Trying to convince people to play a fantasy RPG that isn't D&D or Path is like trying to convince a child than some off brand superhero toy is just as good as their Superman or Iron Man action figure.

# ¿ Mar 12, 2018 01:30

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Plutonis posted:

So what, you saying that non D&D/Pathfinder games are crap that's full of chinese lead paint?

I was originally gonna make a comparison to hole-in-the-wall restaurants and chains, but I felt that might've been too much of a stretch.

# ¿ Mar 12, 2018 01:46

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

TheChirurgeon posted:

I'd watch that, especially if Cena was one of the players

e: Not sure if I'd want the wrestlers playing to have characters that were basically just their wrestling personas transplanted in-game or not, though

The trick is to have them play each others' personas

# ¿ Mar 29, 2018 20:51

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Bongo Bill posted:

Season 1 suffered from being cut in half, season 2 suffered from recycling the ideas that were cut from season 1, but I'll hear nothing against seasons 3 and 4.

They should make a tabletop game about that franchise. The setting is wonderful, and encompassing both series would ensure it has the versatility I like in a system.

I believe it's possible to recut Legends of the Wulin into something that fits. Fellowship with some extra moves would also work.

# ¿ Mar 31, 2018 01:40

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Sion posted:

Someone's looking to wipe the slate clean...

White Wolf posted:

We at White Wolf know you have some very pressing questions for us, and we're here to answer them. We would like to invite you to join us for an "Ask Us Anything" livestream later this week, at 8:00am Pacific Time (1700 CEST) on July 13, where Jason Carl, Producer of Vampire 5th Edition, will be present to take your questions and provide open, straightforward answers. We will address all of your questions, comments, and criticisms for an hour, and we ask that you come to us with absolutely any of the topics that have been raised during recent discussions (or any other time). It is important to us that your concerns are met with honesty and transparency. Please join us at https://www.twitch.tv/whitewolfentertainment for stream.

White Wolf exists because our players engage with us - whether through play, critique, collaboration or just conversation. It is only by speaking with our players, and our community, that we make progress as a company with a long history like ours. We want to thank the tabletop community and our fans for inviting this discussion.

First and foremost: White Wolf in no way supports hatred or intolerance in any form, against anyone, at any time. Vampire the Masquerade is, and always has been, about exploring the darker aspects of our world and human nature. This exploration absolutely ends at the borders of the game world; everyone at White Wolf thoroughly condemns hate groups, racism, and intolerance in real life. Any mention in V5 or our other works is not intended as an endorsement or facilitation of those groups.

Immediately after we became aware of an article that described the author's concerns about White Wolf and V5, we contacted the author to offer our perspective and invite a dialogue. At no point have we demanded (or even requested) the article's removal, nor have we issued any legal threats against him or his website. Any threats that claim to be associated with White Wolf are fraudulent and we condemn them outright, along with any threats of violence or retribution against the author.

We understand that trust is slow to build, and we are committed to supporting our diverse community further with every new work that we release. Our upcoming V5 was made with integrity by a team that cares deeply about the players, and we believe it will speak for itself - but as always, the feedback from everyone in the community helps us create even more supportive and meaningful experiences. With that in mind, we want to address your concerns and feedback directly, and we hope you will join us on Friday for an opportunity to do so.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2018 19:07

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

moths posted:

A discussion with harassing alt-right assholes in a forum that contains my personal info and that of my loved ones? Right after they've chased the last guy off the internet?

Yes, please!

E: oops, I thought it was on FB.

Nah, it's on Twitch so it's at least slightly safer. But idk what the cooloff period for new accounts on Twitch are in case a throwaway is necessary.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2018 19:12

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Kurieg posted:

If AGDQ is any indication, a public unmoderated twitch chat is going to be an absolute shitshow.

SGDQ 2018 was Subs only and it was still a bit of a mess

Sion posted:

AGDQs chat is subscriber only.

Think about that. THat's how dogshit that chat is -and- you have to pay to participate.

Subs only chat was a recent thing. I wanna say no earlier than SGDQ 2017 or something.

# ¿ Jul 11, 2018 19:20

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

https://twitter.com/skinnyghost/status/1021741069858299904

D&D Esports

# ¿ Jul 25, 2018 20:43

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

BetterWeirdthanDead posted:

Watching people lined up along rows and rows of plain folding tables was far less exciting than watching wrestlers slam each other through the same cheap tables and chairs.

That predated World Series of Poker, though, and that show has card table cameras down to a science.

Basically if MtG could copy the card cams of Poker, it might be more interesting to watch. Better still would be a live virtual table that people streaming it can look at and hover over specific cards or things to see their rules text and stuff.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2018 19:31

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Kurieg posted:

His name is "Sci", and he's a Scion of Tenjin.

ahem

It's terrible, but on-brand terrible and that's fine. It's a little disappointing that they couldn't pull out a Korean (or even Tengril) god to use instead of a Japanese one. Even if it would've been more work, it'd be at least a little more appropriate.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2018 19:39

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

It's kinda funny that the US is now catching up to Japan's concept of Replays which are just published transcripts (with some possible dramatization edited in) of RPG sessions. But the US's version is essentially the technologically current version of that.

# ¿ Oct 17, 2018 16:48

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

DalaranJ posted:

An interesting new spin on, �we received a cease & desist�.

~~Doesn't~~ Might seem to be the case

quote:

We�ve heard a lot of great feedback, but one thing we weren�t expecting was SO much interest for us to expand outside of just Dungeons & Dragons! Therefore, we�ve decided to broaden our approach and become RPGSports!
...
This wider umbrella means that we can position ourselves to easily collaborate with other tabletop games. What other tabletop games would you like to see in a competitive style in the future?

Of course, in other ways this doesn�t change too much. The first RPGSports tournament this November will still be played using the Dungeons & Dragons fifth edition rules. We noticed some confusion online, and so wanted to take this opportunity to clarify that this is an EncounterRoleplay production. While D&DBeyond are sponsoring this tournament, Wizards of the Coast are not affiliated with RPGSports.

We�re excited to start releasing more information on rules, to announce the star-studded teams, and to tell you how you can get involved in RPGSports!

Thanks for sticking with us while this exciting project continues to expand and grow.

At face value, there probably is interest to do this with other systems like Pathfinder 1e and Pathfinder 2e. Outside of that, they may have only just started getting the rules and stuff together and have only just now figured out that DnD 5e is a terrible system to do this with so they want to get ahead of the curve.

Edit: There is a possibility that Hasbro/WotC contacted them and told them to change the name to avoid confusion too.

Xelkelvos fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Oct 18, 2018

# ¿ Oct 18, 2018 15:41

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Capfalcon posted:

That's kinda my point. It gives you fun things to do in the game, and it's very good at clearly telling you how they work. But it's just such a dry read, because it's efficient with it's language.

The FC book was basically the next step in the evolution of TTG books as technical documents (which they are, contrary to Arivia's assertions otherwise) .

----------------
This thread brought to you by a tremendous dickhead!

# ¿ Oct 28, 2018 23:34

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Progressive Retro and Originalist Games or PROGs

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 18:52

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Terrible Opinions posted:

Public shaming is something all forums should engage in and the failure to publicly put "user was banned for this post" with a little blurb why is probably the largest failure of social media sites around.

The Sunshine Law but for Social Media and internet communities.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2018 14:59

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

I'm thinking of a Ticket to Ride where the goal is to link as many cities as possible given a limited number of trains, and then you could introduce some "randomization" by having certain cities be declared priorities within x turns to prevent it from becoming a "solved" game.

I wonder what you could do with Diplomacy.

I was thinking more of players having a fraction of the number of trains and open Route cards. Players can use each others' connections to connect cities, but they can only build a city to city connection on their own. All other mechanics remain the same more or less. Goal is getting as high a score as possible.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2018 14:49

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Terrible Opinions posted:

A good 90% of paizo's forums are dominated by people who genuinely believe that actually analyzing the rules of the game and desiring the game be well designed means that you're some sort of sub human rules obsessed person playing to win.

Same, but also a handful of Goons in these forums.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2018 22:19

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Was it ever decided if a D&D book counted as a technical manual or not? I remember people thinking this being a thing that also got into Arivia's craw.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2018 10:18

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Arivia posted:

The idea of "rules as written" is a bullshit fiction coaxed up by people who don't actually understand the mechanism of reading and how that relates to playing the actual game. Academic criticism would be much stronger than the kinds of idiocy the 3e/PF rules community comes up with. You using "apples to apples" as a phrase for comparison shows that you don't really have any idea of how to compare two texts and need to shut up.

If you're going to read the rulebooks and form an argument based off of those, make a proper close reading. If you're going to form an argument based off of gameplay, of course you return to the actual play experience because that experience is the result of interpreting and retransmitting the text to others in the game. You cannot understand or criticize the game without playing the game because play is the method through which the game creates meaning.

edit: It's pretty much a cargo cult, really. People following after people, none of them knowing how to critically read a text and question it. Without any understanding, they fumble at their own terminology without examining its assumptions and lash out at others who disrupt the group superstition.

NGDBSS posted:

Are you really saying that you're the principal authority on these boards for interpreting the technical manuals that are D&D books?

Arivia posted:

Do you have a degree in cultural studies? I'm not the principle (or sole) authority, but I'm definitely willing to call out pointless, baseless community folklore that doesn't stand up to actual learned critical analysis. If you don't have a degree, that's fine - but do realize you don't have explicit learning about the subject in discussion.

Also, RPG books aren't technical manuals because they are texts creating fiction either through reading or gameplay. That's not a technical work.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2018 16:35

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Honestly, I think you could pitch a high budget pirate movie in China. Sure, you might be getting yourself into a bit of money laundering or run the risk of it getting used without you, but the margins are probably about as good as you can get for a TG property at this point.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2018 18:15

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Achmed Jones posted:

I would watch the hell out of wuxia buccaneers

I have no idea if that would be at all appealing to audiences (Chinese or otherwise) though

There's a bunch of fantasy dramas now in China that have been getting licensed by Prime and Netflix so I can assume there's a not insignificant audience for that sort of audience in China.

If it's anything like the fantasy ones, it'd definitely be more chinese flavored so less galleons, more junks.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2018 18:51

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Doesn't hurt there's a considerable history of Chinese pirates. They actually got a minor appearance in the third PotC movie. Not sure if they're romanticised to the same extent, but still.

The Americas seem to romanticize pirates more than Europeans afaict and one big thing that America tends to romanticize that other countries don't are "outlaws" or "rebels." Whether its cowboys in the Wild West, gangsters in Prohibition, or pirates during the Age of Sail, Americans tend to romanticize figures that defy authority (or at least are purported to) more than other cultures in a way that isn't about maintaining their national or cultural identity.

Chinese culture, otoh, seems to be more praising of authority and romanticize benevolent rulers over benevolent rebels. Part of that is based on Confucian ethics, I believe. Aside from that, the arguable most successful pirate in history is of Chinese descent: Ching Shih who, at her peak, reportedly commanded a fleet of 300 ships and 20k-40k pirates before finally being bested by the Portuguese Navy. As far as her romanticization by the Chinese, I'm not entirely sure, but her story is definitely one full of potential. She originally was a brothel madame/prostitute that married and became second to a pirate of his own renown that helped the Vietnamese fight off the Qing. After he died, she married their adopted son who became her second-in-command. After her defeat, she was given amnesty, allowed to keep her loot, and opened up a gambling house and brothel and even assisted as an advisor to the Chinese during the First Opium War.

I'm sure a historian can do better justice to this, but this is baiscally the high points of her legacy

# ¿ Dec 27, 2018 17:51

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

slap me and kiss me posted:

This is super true. My love letter to 4e is exceptionally cut down, and I'm still looking at 70 combat powers and 15 non-combat powers across four species, classes, and backgrounds. And that's with a conscious decision to jettison the feat and item treadmills.

This makes me want to look back at the Log Horizon TTRPG which seemed to draw heavily from 4e in terms of character mechanics and categorization of the classes but was obviously built for more limited arcs or one-shots rather than more extended campaigns. Also, it was a game that allowed multiple regular sized characters share spaces including enemies.

I did an F&F years and years ago. https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/xelkelvos/log-horizon/

# ¿ Jan 28, 2019 21:12

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Plutonis posted:

I'd like to play or even GM it if someone did a full TL.

However much has been TL'd at this point is about the extent that it'll probably get. I don't think it's even updated at this point so whatever is out there is the most anyone will get.

Edit: It seems there was an Extended Rulebook published in March 2018 (in Japan), but I'm not sure of the contents and the machine translated descriptions are basically that there's more stuff. Obviously there's no PDF of it either because it's Japan :v:

If you knew a Japanese speaker, I'm sure I and others would probably pitch in to fill out the translation, but at the very least, the core book and some of the supplements are essentially translated.

Xelkelvos fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jan 29, 2019

# ¿ Jan 29, 2019 18:26

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

Xelkelvos posted:

However much has been TL'd at this point is about the extent that it'll probably get. I don't think it's even updated at this point so whatever is out there is the most anyone will get.

Edit: It seems there was an Extended Rulebook published in March 2018 (in Japan), but I'm not sure of the contents and the machine translated descriptions are basically that there's more stuff. Obviously there's no PDF of it either because it's Japan If you knew a Japanese speaker, I'm sure I and others would probably pitch in to fill out the translation, but at the very least, the core book and some of the supplements are essentially translated.

I did a little more digging and there's actually a not insignificant subculture for this game that I didn't realize. Or at least one big enough to justify a monthly (though nothing since Spring 2018) Web Magazine with more bits of world building, new monsters and adventures to run. I'm legitimately surprised.

https://lhrpg.com/lhz/top
This is basically the website for the RPG and run by the devs of the game. It even has a feature where you can register your Twitter account and Create an Adventurer to go with it. It's an impressive labor of love for what's essentially a niche game. (The rule books are also only ~1500 yen which is cheaper than most indie titles)

# ¿ Jan 29, 2019 21:54

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

https://twitter.com/hexcrawl/status/1090452881952645121

This comment at the end of his thread trying to justify his nonsense boggles my mind.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2019 22:58

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 13:27

Xelkelvos: Dec 19, 2012

It's weird that airbrushing models was the comparison point for APs when a much more modern and similar comparison point exists in Reality TV and it's gamut of varying levels of editing or seemingly way too convenient circumstances

# ¿ Feb 4, 2019 18:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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