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Some doubters say that elementary school desks are not impervious to nuclear weapons, but the US defense planners disagree
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 01:41 |
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# ? May 3, 2024 00:35 |
Noshtane posted:Fair enough, you are right in that the US gun debaters love to point at the rest of the world, both as an example of horror or heaven depending on what side you're on. Let me backpedal a bit and elaborate. Yeah this is a big pile of horse poo poo you're bringing up to muddy the waters. Every country that imposes gun laws and enforces them has reduced gun violence. Every single one. The bottom line is that the best way to reduce gun violence is to reduce the number of guns. Talking about swedish gun culture and swedish police is an attempt to obfuscate that very simple fact. Stop doing this.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 03:33 |
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"I don't think that US gun control advocates really want the Swedish style of gun control, for instance <lists off a bunch of items that US gun control advocates vocally support>"
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 05:51 |
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Yeah this is a big pile of horse poo poo you're bringing up to muddy the waters. Every country that imposed stricter gun laws had success?
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 05:55 |
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QuarkJets posted:"I don't think that US gun control advocates really want the Swedish style of gun control, for instance <lists off a bunch of items that US gun control advocates vocally support>" You'd be willing to leave off the decision of who's a good gun owner and what he'd be allowed own to the local NRA chapter and the local town sheriff? You don't see any way this would fail to achieve the goal you are trying to achieve? Sweden doesn't have any stricter standards on background checks than the US as far as I can tell and the sheriff being elected, I would sooner expect Republican dominated communities to overflow with everything you are trying to ban and already have banned. You'd need stricter gun laws than Sweden, a better police and most importantly a better gun community to reach our levels of crime with legal weapons. LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Yeah this is a big pile of horse poo poo you're bringing up to muddy the waters. You are missing the point completely. What I'm trying to point out is that different countries have different conditions to when it comes to reducing armed violence in the society. I am of the opinion that the Swedish gun laws are good as is and I can back that statement with Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention statistics. This apparently lumps me with the "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" crowd in the eyes of some and I would say that that is exactly what I mean that people view the entire world through a lens of American context. Gun laws are fine in Sweden. Gun laws are not fine in the US. It is not only a piece of text in a law book that has made it this way. VitalSigns posted:Some doubters say that elementary school desks are not impervious to nuclear weapons, but the US defense planners disagree Would an effortpost on the organisation of Totalförsvaret(Total defense) and how civilian marksmanship programs and gun ownership help or are you dead set on that the US conditions for gun ownership are applicable to Sweden any and all cases?
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 10:30 |
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Noshtane posted:You'd be willing to leave off the decision of who's a good gun owner and what he'd be allowed own to the local NRA chapter and the local town sheriff? You don't see any way this would fail to achieve the goal you are trying to achieve? Sweden doesn't have any stricter standards on background checks than the US as far as I can tell and the sheriff being elected, I would sooner expect Republican dominated communities to overflow with everything you are trying to ban and already have banned. You'd need stricter gun laws than Sweden, a better police and most importantly a better gun community to reach our levels of crime with legal weapons. According to this site describing Swedish gun laws you've significantly understated the scope of Swedish gun laws:
lol yes this is leaps and bounds ahead of where the US is at and would undoubtedly be better than what we have now, now wave your Scandinavian magic wand and give us those laws please. Gaining any one of these bullet points would be seen as a huge victory for US gun control advocates Dude why are you assuming that people in the US need to pass a background check? That's only for federally-licensed dealers and whether or not we should even require background checks for all sales is an ongoing point of debate. QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Jul 28, 2018 |
# ? Jul 28, 2018 12:27 |
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Noshtane posted:You are missing the point completely. What I'm trying to point out is that different countries have different conditions to when it comes to reducing armed violence in the society. I am of the opinion that the Swedish gun laws are good as is and I can back that statement with Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention statistics. This apparently lumps me with the "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" crowd in the eyes of some and I would say that that is exactly what I mean that people view the entire world through a lens of American context. No, that's not what's happening here, and I think you already know that. You're using the same dumbshit arguments as the US "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" crowd, what the gently caress did you expect was going to happen?
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 12:40 |
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zapplez posted:Every country that imposed stricter gun laws had success? I too sometimes have trouble comprehending basic english sentences, resulting in wild misinterpretations like this one. But that's usually only after I do a shitload of drugs or if I'm wearing super dark welding goggles. Is one of those things what happened here?
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 12:45 |
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QuarkJets posted:I too sometimes have trouble comprehending basic english sentences, resulting in wild misinterpretations like this one. But that's usually only after I do a shitload of drugs or if I'm wearing super dark welding goggles. Is one of those things what happened here? "Every country that imposes gun laws and enforces them has reduced gun violence. Every single one. The bottom line is that the best way to reduce gun violence is to reduce the number of guns." Did strict gun laws in Mexico or Jamaica 1 - lowered the homicide rate or 2 - lowered the amount of guns in the country being used in crimes?
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 12:49 |
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zapplez posted:"Every country that imposes gun laws and enforces them has reduced gun violence. Every single one. The bottom line is that the best way to reduce gun violence is to reduce the number of guns." How well-enforced are the gun laws in those countries?
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 12:55 |
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sweden's gun laws aren't great (there's a reason they have higher gun violence than similar nations) but they're way way way better than what we got.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 13:22 |
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QuarkJets posted:According to this site describing Swedish gun laws you've significantly understated the scope of Swedish gun laws: That is a good summary and what I tried to convey in the effortpost previously. Noshtane posted:To clarify on that, Swedish gun laws allow private ownership of every type of gun even the most gun happy state in the US would. Pistols, semi-autos including AR-15s , fully automatic SMGs, the works. In short, this works because the Police will review each gun license application and check if the person applying has a reasonable need for the guns applied for. For instance, to own hunting rifles, you need the appropriate hunting license. Having a pistol shooting club vouch for your need is a valid reason to own a pistol. Being afraid of minorities is not a valid reason to own a gun. Competing in SMG shooting thus needing an SMG is a valid reason to own one of those and so on. As the various shooting clubs are very keen on keeping a good relation to the police and the public, they make sure you are properly trained in the use of guns, committed to safety, not a fucknut and so on. It usually takes up to a year of active shooting with a borrowed pistol before they are willing to vouch for you and even longer for the heavier stuff. The police and gun clubs work in conjunction to weed out unfitting members from the gun community and the police can flat out deny a nazi from owning guns. If I where to take my wand of norse magic and will this to the US, it would be an improvement but I actually feel that you'd need more magic to make it to where Sweden is. Your police is atrocious and your gun culture have strong elements who'd embrace the nazis or outright are nazis. That and I hardly think any civilian marksmanship programs or any effort at is needed in the US to boost the national defense. You got far too much defense to begin with Groovelord Neato posted:sweden's gun laws aren't great (there's a reason they have higher gun violence than similar nations) but they're way way way better than what we got. It would also help if we managed to desegregate our society and give the youth in problems areas a proper future to strive towards.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 14:16 |
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Whoa a European making American Exceptionalism arguments.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 18:24 |
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QuarkJets posted:How well-enforced are the gun laws in those countries? Isnt that kind of cheating to say "Gun laws work well everytime, just don't count the countries where they didnt"
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 18:32 |
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zapplez posted:Isnt that kind of cheating to say "Gun laws work well everytime, just don't count the countries where they didnt" No law works if it isn't enforced, this is not something unique to guns.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 18:35 |
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zapplez posted:Isnt that kind of cheating to say "Gun laws work well everytime, just don't count the countries where they didnt" isn’t it kind of cheating for you to constantly gloss over the far more comparable countries to the us that have successfully implemented and enforced gun control laws
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 19:46 |
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zapplez is still coming to grips with the idea that terror attacks by Palestinians on Israelis doesn't make Palestinians equally as bad as Israelis in the IP conflict, so you can't expect him to really understand how to compare any two things in general.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 19:50 |
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zapples is literally loving terrible in every single thread they post in so i'd hope we can all collectively tell them to go eat poo poo in my very humble opinion
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 19:51 |
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stone cold posted:isn’t it kind of cheating for you to constantly gloss over the far more comparable countries to the us that have successfully implemented and enforced gun control laws Gun laws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjvQFtlNQ-M
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 19:55 |
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I guess laws just work without enforcement
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 20:23 |
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I just passed the Somethingawful law that states "zapplez will never post again." The moderators are not going to enforce this law, but I am drat sure you will never post again because that is how laws work. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 20:29 |
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archangelwar posted:I just passed the Somethingawful law that states "zapplez will never post again." The moderators are not going to enforce this law, but I am drat sure you will never post again because that is how laws work. poo poo. I know it's super controversial but I still believe the biggest issue behind the violence in America is income inequality and poverty. You are going to have people willing to commit crimes and arm themselves when they don't have many other options for a good life. Comparing america to a fantastic country like Sweden or even canada is a joke because the poverty is so drastically smaller.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 20:33 |
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zapplez posted:Isnt that kind of cheating to say "Gun laws work well everytime, just don't count the countries where they didnt" It's not cheating to say that laws need to be enforced in order to be effective the point was that you were intentionally leaving off enforcement from your followup post, will it help if I get out some crayons and draw you a picture?
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 20:59 |
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zapplez posted:poo poo. Well poo poo, nobody figured to control for poverty in crime studies. You're headed for a PhD, young man! Turns out guns don't really matter in gun violence.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 21:01 |
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zapplez posted:
Ah yes all that income inequality drives the largely wealthy mass shooters to go shoot people cuz they just get so angry that other people are in poverty. That's why that millionaire guy in Vegas shot into a crowd, he was trying to teach a message about poverty.
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 21:02 |
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Jaxyon posted:Well poo poo, nobody figured to control for poverty in crime studies. Studies always claim to control for poo poo, the real question is how well they actually do it which is basically impossible to figure out because you always have the chance of missing a lurking variable and run into simpsons paradox. The fact of the matter is that gun control has an effect, but it's much much smaller than most gun control advocates believe and most the studies on it are complete horseshit, hth. fishmech posted:Ah yes all that income inequality drives the largely wealthy mass shooters to go shoot people cuz they just get so angry that other people are in poverty. That's why that millionaire guy in Vegas shot into a crowd, he was trying to teach a message about poverty. lol mass shootings are the very definition of statistical outlier and are basically a rounding error in US shootings
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 21:15 |
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science doesn't ever guarantee 100% certainty? welp time to throw in the towel i guess, gun control is just too hard. i'm sure all of those other countries just used a magic genie to reduce their gun violence rates and the gun control did nothing
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# ? Jul 28, 2018 21:18 |
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# ? May 3, 2024 00:35 |
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Closed while I remake some version of the thread (note: this doesn't mean you should continue the discussion in other threads, thanks) Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jul 28, 2018 |
# ? Jul 28, 2018 21:20 |