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VitalSigns posted:How well did hunting rifles work for...hm idk... let's say Poland or Hungary or Czechoslovakia or Latvia or... What was the gun density of said countries? In any case, the Swedish defense planners did not exactly rely on hunting rifles to repel the invaders it was more to boost the effectiveness of a resistance like that of the Polish partisans or the French resistance. The effectiveness of the various resistance groups during the wars can be debated but the fact that a bunch of nazis died at their hands is a good thing IMO.
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Jul 26, 2018 00:17
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Cease to Hope posted:limiting it to the US, the urbanization of the liberal left and the radicalization of right-leaning gun rights groups, combined with systemic persecution of radical left militant minority political groups Is there any good literature on the subject? The fate of the American left is always an interesting one, being a communist in cold war USA must have been something interesting and not in a nice way.
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Jul 26, 2018 00:22
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Noshtane posted:The army is supposed to be made up of the people is it not? It has always been a thing within many forms of communism that the sons of the proletariat should join the military or complete conscription to their best effort as to increase the ability of the proletariat to fight back come the revolution. Social democracy, socialism, and communism in the US slowly died through the 70s and 80s as millions of idiot boomers grew up, culminating with the Democrats embracing the Third Way. Possibly this was caused by inhaling a steadily increasing amount of lead gas fumes for their entire lives
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Jul 26, 2018 00:46
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Seventy four thousand people, even Americans, is a large enough throng to storm the White House, probably also the Capitol. What's that supposed to achieve though? Especially with the current administration where the big babies are constantly flying out to their own golf courses and hotels. The entire capital has been seized before without the government giving up, and the last serious mass movement with anything close to a goal of seizing power was gassed and gunned down by the military about 85 years ago. Noshtane posted:Here's a D&D question that's been bugging me for a bit; why did the left abandon the guns? Leftists generally abhor massive wastes of money to support a few capitalists' investments. Mass gun ownership has quite simply been obsolete since the early 20th century as societies radically urbanized. You might as well ask why the left abandoned horse carriages and burning coal at home.
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Jul 26, 2018 01:18
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fishmech posted:What's that supposed to achieve though? Catharsis, as we string up from a lamppost the few of them that we catch.
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Jul 26, 2018 06:43
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Noshtane posted:What was the gun density of said countries? In any case, the Swedish defense planners did not exactly rely on hunting rifles to repel the invaders it was more to boost the effectiveness of a resistance like that of the Polish partisans or the French resistance. Your examples of hunting weapons defeating modern armies are...two countries that were conquered and ethnically cleansed until foreign professional armies arrived?
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Jul 26, 2018 06:52
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VitalSigns posted:Your examples of hunting weapons defeating modern armies are...two countries that were conquered and ethnically cleansed until foreign professional armies arrived? Again, no one except nutjobs in the US has ever expected civilian firearms to defeat a professional army. That does not mean that everyone thinks that you should just roll over and accept the nazi boot on your face. During the occupation of Norway I don't think that any Norwegian thought that refusing to sit next to a nazi on the bus was going to defeat their armies but they still refused to sit. I for one is of the opinion that shooting a nazi is a more effective way of resisting their occupation. Sweden never had any chance whatsoever to repel the Soviet army should they come knocking. The plan was always to make it very costly to invade in the first place, fighting a delaying war and having a strong guerrilla movement in the occupied territories. Then you'd wait for the professional soldiers, NATO in this case, to arrive. Hunting rifles in the hands of people who knew how to use them was expected to help in the guerrilla movement. Plans for standing in buses was never revealed. As for the example of the French resistance or the partisans, are you of the opinion that their effort was a wasted one? fishmech posted:Leftists generally abhor massive wastes of money to support a few capitalists' investments. So if the guns that where bought where made in national armories, would that be better? That way the money of gun enthusiasts would be funneled into the government budget.
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Jul 26, 2018 09:52
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QuarkJets posted:Social democracy, socialism, and communism in the US slowly died through the 70s and 80s as millions of idiot boomers grew up, culminating with the Democrats embracing the Third Way. Possibly this was caused by inhaling a steadily increasing amount of lead gas fumes for their entire lives Soon the boomers will die off though and their kids will find themselves in a situation where their living standards are decreasing compared to their parents, cost of living steadily increases and the wealth distribution is more skewed than ever before. Shouldn't that be an ideal climate for a socialistic movement to grow?
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Jul 26, 2018 10:02
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Noshtane posted:Soon the boomers will die off though and their kids will find themselves in a situation where their living standards are decreasing compared to their parents, cost of living steadily increases and the wealth distribution is more skewed than ever before. yes, hence the growth of the socialist movement in the US.
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Jul 26, 2018 10:48
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Noshtane posted:Soon the boomers will die off though and their kids will find themselves in a situation where their living standards are decreasing compared to their parents, cost of living steadily increases and the wealth distribution is more skewed than ever before. lol we're already at that point, we've been at that point for decades and democratic socialism is gaining in popularity; increasing taxes on the wealthy and corporations, national healthcare, and opposition to war profiteering are all overwhelmingly popular positions none of this is relevant to gun ownership, though; democratic socialists don't want violent revolution and private arms are unable to defeat the US military anyway (and anyone who says otherwise is a fool)
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Jul 26, 2018 10:57
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Noshtane posted:
It didn't change. Scandinavian socialism for example has been anti-guns pretty much from the very start and started the "broken rifle policy" in the twenties:  
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Jul 26, 2018 11:46
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Alhazred posted:It didn't change. Scandinavian socialism for example has been anti-guns pretty much from the very start and started the "broken rifle policy" in the twenties: i didn't know this, do you have a link or a source for more info?
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Jul 26, 2018 11:54
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Alhazred posted:It didn't change. Scandinavian socialism for example has been anti-guns pretty much from the very start and started the "broken rifle policy" in the twenties: On the other hand, communists in Sweden where more appreciative of guns and the perceived need for them in the upcoming class struggle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N50LekSfcd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS91icUmAs0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTEaV3kmjg Granted, this is Knutna Nävar, a band closely tied to KPML(r), a communist party that where a little extreme in the eyes of many. For those of you who don't speak Swedish, the gist of the songs aren't necessarily "arm yourself" but definitely of the opinion that if you're going to use guns, use them to kill capitalists in the upcoming class war. The next few decades in the US will be interesting to say the least. In general, what does the american left think of the emergence of left leaning gun groups such as the John Brown Gun Club? Are they treated the same as the right-wing nutjobs with guns?
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Jul 26, 2018 12:11
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botany posted:i didn't know this, do you have a link or a source for more info? Not in english I'm afraid. Noshtane posted:
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Jul 26, 2018 13:45
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Noshtane posted:Again, no one except nutjobs in the US has ever expected civilian firearms to defeat a professional army. That does not mean that everyone thinks that you should just roll over and accept the nazi boot on your face.
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Jul 26, 2018 13:50
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Alhazred posted:Not in english I'm afraid. i'll take other languages as well!
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Jul 26, 2018 13:51
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botany posted:i'll take other languages as well! There's the norwegian wikipage: https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Det_brukne_gev%C3%A6rs_politikk
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Jul 26, 2018 14:08
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Noshtane posted:
Again the guns are unneeded and the vast majority of people don't want them either. And sure, the money should be funneled there by taxing them harder (since again, gun enthusiasts are primarily well off). There's no need to be selling new guns.
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Jul 26, 2018 14:23
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Alhazred posted:Not in english I'm afraid. True, KPML(r) has always been on the fringe but their influence on the communist movement in Sweden should not be dismissed either. As for the left in general, the Social Democrats are and have always been the biggest group by far, the same party who oversaw the massive buildup of military strength in cold war Sweden as well as the lax gun laws to get hunting rifles to as many as possible. It is also noteworthy that regions with high gun density also tend to vote left in Sweden. VitalSigns posted:Why just hunting rifles. If killing Nazis in a theoretical invasion is so important, why not individual stockpiles of RPGs, AT4s, bombs for roadside and official building targets, etc in as many hands as possible? That was the reason why there was so called Mobiliseringsförråd dispersed throughout Sweden unlike the US where most of the weapons where concentrated to army bases. Since every man in Sweden had gone through conscription, everyone got a war placement, in the event of war you'd have your assigned place to go to aid in the defense of Sweden and if said place was already occupied, you where expected to resist by any means possible, be it AT4 from the dispersed storage, hunting rifle or standing in the bus. As for the sale of rockets in shops, there is little utility to a rocket launcher, they are too expensive for your average person and they have no use outside a military context. Hence they where not for sale. Hunting rifles and the like on the other hand, their primary use is for hunting and recreational shooting and can double as a sniper rifle during occupation. And I'd still like to hear if you think the French resistance and partisans where useless in their fighting against the nazis. fishmech posted:Again the guns are unneeded and the vast majority of people don't want them either. As for their use, I have yet to meet the moose who will give up it's meat voluntarily and those paper targets won't hole themselves.
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Jul 26, 2018 14:59
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Noshtane posted:That was the reason why there was so called Mobiliseringsförråd dispersed throughout Sweden unlike the US where most of the weapons where concentrated to army bases. Oh cool great idea, the rifles too can be stored in the Mobiliseringsförråd and passed out in time of need, no need for individual home storage. Noshtane posted:As for the sale of rockets in shops, there is little utility to a rocket launcher, they are too expensive for your average person and they have no use outside a military context. Hence they where not for sale. But your argument is that we need hunting rifles for use in a military context 
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Jul 26, 2018 15:07
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VitalSigns posted:Why just hunting rifles. If killing Nazis in a theoretical invasion is so important, why not individual stockpiles of RPGs, AT4s, bombs for roadside and official building targets, etc in as many hands as possible? It's a trade-off between being better able to fight a guerrilla war on one hand, and minimizing casualties in domestic terrorist attacks on the other. If civilians were allowed access to bombs, RPGs, etc just as easily as they have access to guns now, then there would be even more deaths when someone decides to kill people, for example by shooting an RPG at a crowded bus.
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Jul 26, 2018 15:11
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VitalSigns posted:Oh cool great idea, the rifles too can be stored in the Mobiliseringsförråd and passed out in time of need, no need for individual home storage. Oh there where tons of rifles in said mobiliserfigsförråd, mainly battle rifles and the like. Depending on how fast the Soviet invasion progressed, it was a very real risk that the storage was overrun and/or destroyed. As such, the common hunting rifle was an ideal tradeoff between effectiveness in a resistance movement, civilian utility such as hunting and recreational shooting and risk to society. National guardsmen kept their battle rifles at home though. To prevent the confiscation of guns in the event of occupation, each police station kept paper records of the gun owners in their area, records that where to be destroyed with haste if the Soviets came. And again, was it wrong of the French resistance and the partisans to take up arms against the nazis? Noshtane fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 15:31
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qkkl posted:It's a trade-off between being better able to fight a guerrilla war on one hand, and minimizing casualties in domestic terrorist attacks on the other. If civilians were allowed access to bombs, RPGs, etc just as easily as they have access to guns now, then there would be even more deaths when someone decides to kill people, for example by shooting an RPG at a crowded bus. 
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Jul 26, 2018 15:45
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Hey dumbfuck We have drones now You're not gonna win a gunfight with a drone
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Jul 26, 2018 17:00
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Noshtane posted:
It’s wrong that you to keep trying to frame gun ownership in America in this light. It’s pure deflection and intellectual dishonesty, although I believe it’s really your brain tricking you more than you trying to trick us.
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Jul 26, 2018 17:37
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if it go to that point you'd have to raid an armory anyway like the martyr john brown.
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Jul 26, 2018 17:41
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Noshtane posted:Oh there where tons of rifles in said mobiliserfigsförråd, mainly battle rifles and the like. You can't have it both ways, either we have to plan for armories getting overrun in which case everyone needs a personal bomb arsenal, or the armories are a fine solution such that we can trust the most necessary and effective materiel to be available there when we need it. Noshtane posted:As such, the common hunting rifle was an ideal tradeoff between effectiveness in a resistance movement, civilian utility such as hunting and recreational shooting and risk to society. Noshtane posted:And again, was it wrong of the French resistance and the partisans to take up arms against the nazis? Was it wrong? No. Did it make any difference with respect to the final outcome of the war? No. Is it worthwhile to buy guns based on a fantasy of becoming the French resistance which made no difference anyway? No. Are there better or at least demonstrably less retarded reasons for having a gun such as "I like hunting" or "shooty-bang is fun"? Yes.
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Jul 26, 2018 17:55
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WampaLord posted:Hey dumbfuck The soviets had attack helicopters impervious to rifle fire too you know? If you are too dim witted to think of any other way to resist occupation than having a pitched gun battle with drones/helicopters, that's on you. It doesn't mean that the defense planner where. LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:It's wrong that you to keep trying to frame gun ownership in America in this light. It’s pure deflection and intellectual dishonesty, although I believe it's really your brain tricking you more than you trying to trick us. I'd agree with you if we where talking about US nutjobs resisting the NWO or whatever but I'm talking about the civil resistance envisioned in the case of a Soviet occupation of Sweden. VitalSigns posted:But in that case it's useless so everyone should be stockpiling bombs in their houses in case the armory is overrun, which will be much more effective at terrorizing an invading army than grandpappy's deer rifle. I think both you and I know why no one wants RPGs in the corner sports store or bombs in the attic of cottages. If you got to the mobiliseringsförråd in time it was good, if not, well a rifle is far better than nothing. It doesn't change the fact that Swedish defense planners thought civilian rifles where a valuable addition to the defense of the nation. If you can force the enemy to use APCs to move occupational troops through cities and villages and tank commanders to stay buttoned up due to fear of bullets, that is less APCs on the front, increased stress on the troops as they can't feel safe in the rear areas. There where tons of plans and ideas for how a resistance was to be conducted and civilian rifles where tough to be useful in some of these tasks. No there was zero chance that these tasks would throw out an occupying Soviet Union but they might delay or weaken them in some manner, increasing the likelihood that NATO could arrive in time to do it. I totally agree that hunting and punching holes in paper is the main and most useful task of my rifles, I freely admit that I hope that I never ever have to use a rifle for anything else but that doesn't change the fact that Sweden thought them useful at resisting Soviets should the worst come to happen. As for the French resistance not helping the war effort, I know that the French would disagree with you on that part, as would Eisenhower. Eisenhower posted:Throughout France, the Free French had been of inestimable value in the campaign. They were particularly active in Brittany, but on every portion of the front we secured help from them in a multitude of ways. Without their great assistance, the liberation of France and the defeat of the enemy in Western Europe would have consumed a much longer time and meant greater losses to ourselves Noshtane fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 19:27
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:It’s wrong that you to keep trying to frame gun ownership in America in this light. It’s pure deflection and intellectual dishonesty, although I believe it’s really your brain tricking you more than you trying to trick us. This isn't even a new deflection. It came up earlier in the thread and I've been seeing it for months. It's the "so much for the tolerant left" of the ammosexual set.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:30
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Noshtane posted:The soviets had attack helicopters impervious to rifle fire too you know? Do you not understand that drones and helicopters are different things, you loving idiot? Technology has caught up, if any armed revolution were going to start in this country, the NSA would know exactly where to drone, you are not going to overthrow the US military you gun humping fuckstain
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Jul 26, 2018 19:33
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Noshtane posted:The soviets had attack helicopters impervious to rifle fire too you know? If you are too dim witted to think of any other way to resist occupation than having a pitched gun battle with drones/helicopters, that's on you. It doesn't mean that the defense planner where. Noshtane posted:I think both you and I know why no one wants RPGs in the corner sports store or bombs in the attic of cottages. Noshtane posted:As for the French resistance not helping the war effort, I know that the French would disagree with you on that part, as would Eisenhower. Eisenhower is agreeing with what I said, which was: "the French resistance made no difference to the final outcome of the war", the Allies would have won in any case.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:49
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WampaLord posted:Do you not understand that drones and helicopters are different things, you loving idiot? You seem really hot an bothered about guns. Note that the US has yet to quell the Afghans despite throwing planes, drones, helos at them, bombing hospitals, weddings and children in your attempts to break them. Besides, I don't live in the US and I don't associate with the nutjobs you have, nor their belief that UN NWO commies is out to impurify their bodily fluids with chemtrails.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:51
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Noshtane posted:Note that the US has yet to quell the Afghans despite throwing planes, drones, helos at them, bombing hospitals, weddings and children in your attempts to break them. Your new example of pappy's huntin rifle driving off a full-scale Nazi invasion is a half-assed imperial project that the US has no real stake in winning, fighting the former military of the state they invaded which is being supplied with military materiel from neighboring powers in the region 
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Jul 26, 2018 19:55
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Noshtane posted:Besides, I don't live in the US SO WHY DO YOU GIVE A gently caress ABOUT OUR GUN LAWS?
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Jul 26, 2018 19:55
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Gun nuts always bring up the same arguments, then follow up replies the exact same way. So many times I've seen the 'need guns to fight my government' 'but government have tanks/drones' 'but US can't quell people with guns in far off country' chain.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:58
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Noshtane posted:You seem really hot an bothered about guns. Ah yes, the afghans, noted world power who's successfully kept the US government from doing whatever the hell it wanted despite having the advantage of having been armed by multiple super-powers and knowing the incredibly challenging terrain. Zanzibar Ham posted:Gun nuts always bring up the same arguments, then follow up replies the exact same way. So many times I've seen the 'need guns to fight my government' 'but government have tanks/drones' 'but US can't quell people with guns in far off country' chain. "We're to use the guns to fight injustice, just not yet. Someday".
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Jul 26, 2018 19:59
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VitalSigns posted:Uh, hope a superpower sends you billions in military aid and arms you with RPGs? You disagree with me, we do need RPGs in the hands of the people? VitalSigns posted:
With heavier causalities and at a later date. The French resistance was useful in the liberation of France and to say anything else is denying history. The theoretical Swedish resistance was aimed to achieve the same thing, weaken the occupying forces and to aid in their expulsion once the cavalry arrived.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:01
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Zanzibar Ham posted:Gun nuts always bring up the same arguments, then follow up replies the exact same way. So many times I've seen the 'need guns to fight my government' 'but government have tanks/drones' 'but US can't quell people with guns in far off country' chain. It's always funny because you start bringing up the weapons they would actually need, but since their identity isn't tied up in hoarding IEDs they are able to think rationally about it and are all "oh wait no, the odds of needing to fight an armed resistance and the utility of actually doing so successfully are so infinitesimal that the benefit is nonexistent next to the risk of crazies going on killing sprees"
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Jul 26, 2018 20:04
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Noshtane posted:You disagree with me, we do need RPGs in the hands of the people? I'm not the one using the mujaheddin as an example for the insurgency I'm wargaming out now am I? Noshtane posted:The French resistance was useful in the liberation of France and to say anything else is denying history. I didn't say that, I said they were unnecessary.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:06
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WampaLord posted:SO WHY DO YOU GIVE A gently caress ABOUT OUR GUN LAWS? I really don't actually. They are fun to debate and theorycraft about but since hey don't apply to me I don't care all that much of you ban literally all guns or legalize recreational bazookas. I do care about Swedish gun laws though. VitalSigns posted:Your new example of pappy's huntin rifle driving off a full-scale Nazi invasion is a half-assed imperial project that the US has no real stake in winning, fighting the former military of the state they invaded which is being supplied with military materiel from neighboring powers in the region Keep the strawmen to a minimum please. I object to the notion that drones mark the end of guerrilla wars though.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:07
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