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Everyone apparently keeps strawmanning you, are you sure you're not related to Dr. Crane by any chance?
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Jul 26, 2018 20:13
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"Why aren't you stockpiling guns? What if you need a rifle to shoot down Soviet helicopters?!" "Don't you mean 'why aint I stockpiling RPGs to shoot down Soviet helicopters'?" "Are you crazy, we can't have people building helicopter-killing arsenals in the infinitesimal chance that they may come in handy in a war someday! That kind of delusional paranoia will only enable spree killers!"
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Jul 26, 2018 20:13
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VitalSigns posted:I didn't say that, I said they were unnecessary. I think the allied soldiers who didn't die because nazi trains carrying reinforcements got derailed would disagree. Or the jews who didn't get murdered because the French resistance got them to safety, they'd disagree too. Same the French people who got an early liberation from literal loving nazis. But what does that matter when it's so much more important with ideological purity on the stance that guns are always wrong, right???
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Jul 26, 2018 20:20
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Noshtane posted:I think the allied soldiers who didn't die because nazi trains carrying reinforcements got derailed would disagree. Or the jews who didn't get murdered because the French resistance got them to safety, they'd disagree too. Same the French people who got an early liberation from literal loving nazis. I don't think you derail trains by shooting at train tracks with deer rifles mang
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Jul 26, 2018 20:22
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What point is Noshtane even trying to make here? Is he some kind of subarctic albino doomsday prepper or some poo poo? Is he mad Sweden won't let him keep 100kg of gelignite under his bed in case he has to re-enact the French Resistance only with more snow and worse food?
sean10mm fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 20:26
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sean10mm posted:What point is Noshtane even trying to make here? Is he some kind of subarctic albino doomsday prepper or some poo poo? Is he mad Sweden won't let him keep 100kg of gelignite under his bed in case he has to re-enact the French Resistance only with more snow and worse food? "I like guns and the internet is full of idiotic American gun fetishists who enable me"
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Jul 26, 2018 20:29
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sean10mm posted:What point is Noshtane even trying to make here? Is he some kind of subarctic albino doomsday prepper or some poo poo? Instead of making reasonable cases for gun ownership like hunting or recreation for those who enjoy those activities, he's trying to argue that everyone should stockpile hunting rifles in order to overthrow the government or defeat an invading army, because gun nuts just can't treat their hobby as the leisure activity it is for 99% of them (subsistence hunters excepted) it has to be wrapped up in ridiculous power fantasies of being an action hero. Since this is a fantasy, the only real-world examples he can point to require explosives or other real military equipment (which he doesn't want people to own despite using them as examples of things we need to prepare to do) which is where the comedy comes in.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:32
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Noshtane posted:legalize recreational bazookas Already legal.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:56
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sean10mm posted:What point is Noshtane even trying to make here? He is a reasonable gun owner and like any reasonable gun owner he is: making a gish gallop of bad faith arguments about topics he doesn't understand using rigorous research methods such as "extrapolate unrelated facts from the first result of a Google search I made; and oh by the way I suck at Google but I won't let that stop me." Except in this case, he has clearly admitted his intent at bad faith which I suppose is at least a refreshing dose of honesty. Hunting and target shooting are actually the weakest form of argument in favor of private gun ownership owing to the ease with which either activity can still be conducted without onerous burden in a collective ownership setting with extreme safety measures fully enforced at every step. In fact, collective ownership might even be a more efficient way to organize these activities. This is why the "oh, and to overthrow tyrannical governments" argument is tossed in as an afterthought along with lazy examples that actually demonstrate the futility of such a concept.
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Jul 26, 2018 21:11
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Mulva posted:Already legal. Potato guns?
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Jul 26, 2018 21:12
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Noshtane posted:You seem really hot an bothered about guns. Are the Afghans using personal hunting rifles and pistols or military-grade weaponry? Do you not seen the problem in arguing in favor of people having unrestricted access to personal firearms for military reasons and then bringing up examples where armed resistance groups are using military weapons, not personal firearms, that either came from the former local government or from other sympathetic governments? Like you get that the French resistance was largely about information and support, and not engaging in combat with old pistols and hunting rifles, right? And that the paramilitary units within the resistance were clandestinely supplied by the USSR and Britain?
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Jul 26, 2018 21:17
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archangelwar posted:Hunting and target shooting are actually the weakest form of argument in favor of private gun ownership owing to the ease with which either activity can still be conducted without onerous burden in a collective ownership setting with extreme safety measures fully enforced at every step. In fact, collective ownership might even be a more efficient way to organize these activities. This is why the "oh, and to overthrow tyrannical governments" argument is tossed in as an afterthought along with lazy examples that actually demonstrate the futility of such a concept. Of course this also applies to overthrowing the government, as even he admitted since his solution to the obvious problems of individuals stockpiling RPGs to fight the gubberment was to suggest collective armories where such weapons could be safely stored and passed out only in time of need (armories which I suppose aren't controlled by the government we need to overthrow but by Real
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Jul 26, 2018 21:18
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Mulva posted:Already legal. DD are technically legal in the same way that machine guns are legal in the US, ie you need a registration and tax stamp granted at the ATF's pleasure in order to purchase them, if that's acceptable for the purposes of obtaining them to overthrow the gubberment then great I've got a whole list of guns that can be added to the NFA and regulated the same way (spoiler it's a list of all semiautos)
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Jul 26, 2018 21:21
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Noshtane posted:
We’re talking about that because it’s a more comfortable subject for you and a common deflection. It has no basis in a discussion about gun control in 2018. The onus is on you to prove it’s a relevant thing to talk about in this, the modern gun control thread about American gun control laws (because other countries have already figured this poo poo out).
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Jul 26, 2018 21:38
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Noshtane posted:I really don't actually. They are fun to debate and theorycraft about but since hey don't apply to me I don't care all that much of you ban literally all guns or legalize recreational bazookas. I do care about Swedish gun laws though. I like how you whine about strawmen and in the same post state that you think posters are arguing that "drones mark the end of guerrilla wars". Guerrilla wars are still a thing, and they will likely always be a thing. For them to be successful though they need actual military grade weapons and can't rely on hunting rifles. This is why all of your examples fall flat too. Oh well Sweden's actual plan is to rely on NATO. Oh the Afghanis were able to cause enough attrition against the Soviets to get them to leave; nevermind that the US supplied billions in military grade weapons including the RPGs and such necessary to take out Soviet helicopters. I also really liked your retreat to "but aren't y'all communists??? How are you going to enact the revolution without hunting rifles???" too.
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Jul 26, 2018 21:39
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Noshtane posted:I really don't actually. They are fun to debate and theorycraft about but since hey don't apply to me I don't care all that much of you ban literally all guns or legalize recreational bazookas. this is such a toxic attitude. "the issue that is literally killing school children in your quaint little country is an amusing theoretical puzzle to me. the blood and death provide me with recreation, like a sudoku." go gently caress yourself
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Jul 26, 2018 23:19
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Noshtane do you understand that most of the posters in this thread would be really happy if the US adopted Sweden's gun laws?
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Jul 26, 2018 23:33
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QuarkJets posted:Noshtane do you understand that most of the posters in this thread would be really happy if the US adopted Sweden's gun laws? I understand that, yes, and as little skin as I have in the game I wish that you luck in getting there. As I understand them, the US gun laws are a stinking mess of hot garbage across the board, even when they try to be restrictive. I actually believe that this thread and me would agree on pretty much every point on gun legislation unless you belong to the "ban all guns, literally" crowd. I am perfectly happy with the gun laws as Sweden has them now. The fact that the crimes with legal weapons per year in Sweden are usually counted in a single digit I see as a testament to a well functioning legislation on the matter. That me defending a Swedish cold war doctrine would have sparked such ire I had no idea. I guess hindsight is 20/20, the fact that the US never was under any threat of occupation or me having a bit of trouble getting my point across as English isn't my native tongue might exacerbate the situation, but Sweden actually believed and still does to although not as fervently, that rifles would aid in the defense of the nation should the war come knocking. As for leadchat, I still maintain it's a non issue in Sweden and pretty much everywhere, not even the Greens in Sweden cares about lead ammunition. botany posted:this is such a toxic attitude. "the issue that is literally killing school children in your quaint little country is an amusing theoretical puzzle to me. the blood and death provide me with recreation, like a sudoku." go gently caress yourself Sometimes I have a hard time feeling sorry for US issues as Europe, Sweden and the Middle East in particular have been paying a very heavy price because Americans decided it was time to play colonial police. People fleeing shattered societies, smashed by US bombs, a war profit, profit of which goes straight back to the USA while the fallout lands on everyone else. Still, point taken, I should not lay that at the feet of school children. Sorry.
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Jul 27, 2018 01:10
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Noshtane posted:
What was the price Sweden paid exactly, the tax filings on all the arms dealing Sweden did and does?
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Jul 27, 2018 01:18
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Guns are useful for getting past all the guards protecting the nuclear missile silos so you can steal a warhead and smuggle it into the capital city of Big Tyrannical Government and save the world.
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Jul 27, 2018 01:21
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guns are necessary to protect us from a tyrannical government, like so
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Jul 27, 2018 03:48
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botany posted:this is such a toxic attitude. "the issue that is literally killing school children in your quaint little country is an amusing theoretical puzzle to me. the blood and death provide me with recreation, like a sudoku." go gently caress yourself Oh the ironing.
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Jul 27, 2018 06:03
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Noshtane posted:I understand that, yes, and as little skin as I have in the game I wish that you luck in getting there. As I understand them, the US gun laws are a stinking mess of hot garbage across the board, even when they try to be restrictive. you've spent a lot of time writing words to address a crowd that doesn't even post here quote:That me defending a Swedish cold war doctrine would have sparked such ire I had no idea. I guess hindsight is 20/20, the fact that the US never was under any threat of occupation or me having a bit of trouble getting my point across as English isn't my native tongue might exacerbate the situation, but Sweden actually believed and still does to although not as fervently, that rifles would aid in the defense of the nation should the war come knocking. Why did you even post it in the first place then? You had to realize that those are the same arguments used by gun nuts to explain why they need to own 30 guns so it shouldn't come as a surprise that people would treat you like a gun nut for posting a gun nut argument. The response was to accurately point out that "we'll be able to fight against the soviets with our hunting rifles" is security theater on par with US duck and cover videos. Just because it was doctrine doesn't mean it was smart or even reasonable.
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Jul 27, 2018 09:43
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chesnok posted:Oh the ironing. ?
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Jul 27, 2018 10:04
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fishmech posted:What was the price Sweden paid exactly, the tax filings on all the arms dealing Sweden did and does? Yes, Sweden is selling arms to the USA and it is not a good thing but it pales in comparison to the millions of US citizens joining the US armed forces to stomp the faces of poor people overseas. Add to this the additional millions of US citizens working building weapons or supplying resources and aid to the military complex that thrives on brutalizing people all over the world. Yes, I know that the vast majority of the profit from these wars does not end up in the pockets of the workers but the fact that someone else is taking a larger portion of the war plunder is not a valid excuse. Sweden supplying weapons bites us in the rear end now since there is a massive stream of people fleeing the hell on earth that USA created where they used to live. Yes, it is our duty to help and shelter these people. Sweden takes in well over 100.000 refugees annually. How many middle eastern refugees did the US receive during the Obama years? I can tell you that it wasn't nearly enough and I doubt that the current president the American electorate saw fit to vote for will change this. QuarkJets posted:you've spent a lot of time writing words to address a crowd that doesn't even post here If I want to join the gun circlejerk on SA, TFR is the place to go. If I want to debate gun laws and have a meaningful debate on gun ownership with people who don't necessarily agree with me on all points , D&D was a better choice. Alas, I was wrong. Things devolved into ad hom attacks, strawmen and poo flinging in short order and yes I know I'm not entirely innocent in that regard. I will try to keep myself on the level though. As to why I brought up Swedish gun laws? I wanted to bring some perspective on gun ownership and bring light to the fact that there is a world and a reality outside the US, places that can't be viewed through the lens of US gun politics. I agree that the fucknuts you have in the US are utter idiots and their dream of fighting an oppressive occupation by NWO UN troops is even more idiotic. Contrast this to a tiny, neutral country like Sweden or Finland, countries that exist on the periphery of a vast and militaristic dictatorship, here the threat of invasionis real in a way it has never ever been in the US. In that context, having civilian marksmanship programs and lax rifle laws makes sense, to get rifles out to the public, to hone and keep the skills of the populace since literally every male younger than 55 in Sweden where expected to return to active duty in some form should the war arrive. As I said, the plan was always for the people to get to their dispersed wartime placement and join the organized defense. The shooting skills kept fresh through civilian shooting would certainly help the defense effort. It could also help if the population where able to take pot shots at occupying troops in the streets as a last ditch effort. Would this enable Sweden to defeat the Soviet Union? No, but neither would anything else Sweden could have done. Had the Soviets come, Sweden was doomed. End of story. The only salvation was if NATO decided to intervene. By the reasoning "your rifles won't defeat the Soviets, therefore they are useless", the entirety of the Swedish armed forces was useless. I guess it's your privilege as a citizen of the worlds strongest super power to be able to say that civilian defense is useless. You can be safe in the knowledge that you have an army that will take care of any and all threats. The Swedish military on the other hand still think that the civilian marksmanship programs have a place in the defense of the nation and as far as I know, Finland and Norway does too. Noshtane fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Jul 27, 2018 |
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Jul 27, 2018 12:47
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Noshtane posted:Yes, Sweden is selling arms to the USA and it is not a good thing but it pales in comparison to the millions of US citizens joining the US armed forces to stomp the faces of poor people overseas. Oh I see, you're angry you had to see some Muslims around that help keep the Swedish economy going. That's hardly a price Sweden had to pay, Sweden's benefitted greatly from it all while being able to pretend neutrality makes the hands clean. Are these people the reason you insist on guns? Cuz if not I have no idea why you try to bring it up.
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Jul 27, 2018 14:58
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Noshtane posted:By the reasoning "your rifles won't defeat the Soviets, therefore they are useless", the entirety of the Swedish armed forces was useless. So close...
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Jul 27, 2018 15:11
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fishmech posted:Oh I see, you're angry you had to see some Muslims around that help keep the Swedish economy going. That's hardly a price Sweden had to pay, Sweden's benefitted greatly from it all while being able to pretend neutrality makes the hands clean. I don't mind helping them but I can tell you I'd sooner see them come to Sweden as exchange students, businessmen, specialist workers, tourists or voluntary migrants, not as refugees forced from their homes due to US imperialism. And no, Sweden has not benefited greatly economically speaking from the US having bombed the ME to poo poo. Not that it matters, it is not an economic issue, it's a humanitarian one, to help people in need, any benefit or cost be damned. VitalSigns posted:So close... Sorry that Sweden decided it was worth every effort, no matter how futile, to maintain a free and open society in the face of Soviet aggression. That's just how it was and still is, even if it's Putin and not Stalin this time around.
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Jul 27, 2018 15:55
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This is why I claim, and truly believe, that guns are psychologically toxic in a way that many/most other weapons are not. And it is not like I am alone in this opinion, or that it is just a silly "lay opinion," psychologists have been hypothesizing this for a while; but it is a difficult, if not impossible, phenomenon to properly study (for reasons we all know). Guns have strong psychological symbolism (phallic, power, dominance, force, projection, penetration) along with breaking empathic connection (range, reduction of psychological connection with means of destruction absolving guilt/remorse, less visceral portrayal of injury, connected with quick/instant death). You will see people make arguments for guns that they will reject for nearly all other forms of weapon: edged, bow/crossbow, fire/explosive, large caliber/artillery, explosive, shrapnel, chemical, etc; even if that argument is absurd. Even someone in this very thread who is not steeped in American toxic gun culture is going through these contortions; and because they are disconnected from the visceral reality of the negatives of gun culture in America, there is no reason for them to reject the underlying flawed psychological impulses that undermine understanding of rationality/logic. Humans have an unhealthy relationship with guns and we need to acknowledge that, rather than applying our 20/20 hindsight when conducting a post mortem of mass shootings.
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Jul 27, 2018 18:24
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Noshtane posted:It is not I who suffer from the US bombings, it is the people who come to to Sweden, broken by war brought to them by you guys over the pond. Also lol pretending it's "US Imperialism" when we're talking about centuries long systems of European crimes still actively aided and abetted by Europeans. Like do I have to remind you that you're saying these things to try to justify having guns? And to defend your absurd claim that this is costing Sweden of all places? fishmech fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jul 27, 2018 |
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Jul 27, 2018 18:36
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Noshtane's posting in gunchat is a classic example of what Wolfgang Pauli meant when he said, "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong."
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Jul 27, 2018 18:49
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So I guess when Sweden sells arms to the US they're doing so at-cost? Is that the idea? "Sweden doesn't benefit from US Imperialism" is such a naive concept it's hard to figure out where to start addressing it
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Jul 27, 2018 20:27
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Noshtane posted:As to why I brought up Swedish gun laws? I wanted to bring some perspective on gun ownership and bring light to the fact that there is a world and a reality outside the US, places that can't be viewed through the lens of US gun politics. What the gently caress? A key component of US gun politics is to point at gun laws and statistics in other parts of the world, so obviously we are aware that other countries exist with their own laws. Don't post condescending bullshit like that
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Jul 27, 2018 20:32
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QuarkJets posted:So I guess when Sweden sells arms to the US they're doing so at-cost? Is that the idea? "Sweden doesn't benefit from US Imperialism, anyway our defense strategy is to hunker down and wait for the American Empire to arrive in force"
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Jul 27, 2018 22:24
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Noshtane posted:Yes, Sweden is selling arms to the USA and it is not a good thing but it pales in comparison to the millions of US citizens joining the US armed forces to stomp the faces of poor people overseas. I just love how low energy this tanty is, it's a real treat. You're doing this thing called the bologna tactic. It's where you keep throwing poo poo at the wall and seeing what sticks. It's why you keep bringing up really weird poo poo like the Soviet Union, an entity that no longer exists, occupying Sweden, as though it's an actual rebuttal of the idea that "Gun violence goes down when there are fewer guns." If you don't want people to call you an idiot, have an argument that isn't idiotic. It's not ad hominem if what you're doing is irrefutable by way of nonsensicality.
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Jul 27, 2018 23:49
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Hey I'm sorry if it comes across as cheerleading but I've done my best to follow whatever the gently caress Noshtane is taking about from post to post and it's just a really neckbeardy gish gallop of useless details that may have fooled y'all initial thinking he's doing anything other than spewing all of the same arguments over and over. I don't see the point in addressing those posts anymore.
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Jul 28, 2018 00:07
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Every nation state in the western world benefits from US imperialism. Sweeden too.
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Jul 28, 2018 00:09
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Doctor Butts posted:Hey I'm sorry if it comes across as cheerleading but I've done my best to follow whatever the gently caress Noshtane is taking about from post to post and it's just a really neckbeardy gish gallop of useless details that may have fooled y'all initial thinking he's doing anything other than spewing all of the same arguments over and over. Actually he's a Very Serious Poster trying to have a Very Serious Debate and you should respect that.
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Jul 28, 2018 00:10
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I'm not even convinced he's arguing in good faith anymore since he's dragged out the whole 'i don't really care I just like to theory craft and debate' poo poo
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Jul 28, 2018 00:11
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QuarkJets posted:What the gently caress? A key component of US gun politics is to point at gun laws and statistics in other parts of the world, so obviously we are aware that other countries exist with their own laws. Don't post condescending bullshit like that Fair enough, you are right in that the US gun debaters love to point at the rest of the world, both as an example of horror or heaven depending on what side you're on. Let me backpedal a bit and elaborate. Yes, the US gun debate does point to other countries all the time but put it in an American context, something that may lead to wrong people drawing the wrong conclusions. For instance, civilian gun ownership and marksmanship programs to aid in national defense and resistance. The posters in this thread has made it abundantly clear that they don't believe that this is good or even possible in any way. The defense planners in the Nordic countries disagree. In the context of US gun ownership, you are absolutely right but in a Nordic context, things are different. Swedish gun laws is another example that US gun debate tend to get wrong. Sweden is neither the gun-hating socialists that NRA would claim or the deer-rifle-only success story gun that control advocates might say. Posters have claimed that our laws are close to ideal but I hava a feeling that they wouldn't work nearly as well in the USA without major rework. To clarify on that, Swedish gun laws allow private ownership of every type of gun even the most gun happy state in the US would. Pistols, semi-autos including AR-15s , fully automatic SMGs, the works. In short, this works because the Police will review each gun license application and check if the person applying has a reasonable need for the guns applied for. For instance, to own hunting rifles, you need the appropriate hunting license. Having a pistol shooting club vouch for your need is a valid reason to own a pistol. Being afraid of minorities is not a valid reason to own a gun. Competing in SMG shooting thus needing an SMG is a valid reason to own one of those and so on. As the various shooting clubs are very keen on keeping a good relation to the police and the public, they make sure you are properly trained in the use of guns, committed to safety, not a fucknut and so on. It usually takes up to a year of active shooting with a borrowed pistol before they are willing to vouch for you and even longer for the heavier stuff. A collectors license allows you to get pretty much everything within the scope of your collection but you'd generally need additional permits to fire the guns. The whole system depends on a) That the gun clubs are doing a good job in weeding out unfitting members from the community, and b), that the police is capable of doing a correct assessment of what guns are appropriate for what use. Note that the assessment is up to the individual policemen who are handling the application with general guidelines from above. Would you trust the US gun community and US police to handle those things in a satisfactory manner? I wouldn't. I don't see either a) or b) happening in the US any time soon. What you want when you say Swedish gun laws is that you want Swedish gun culture and Swedish police. I do think that the US would benefit tremendously from both but I don't see how you'd get there. Then we have the gun crime that does happen in Sweden and why legally owned rifles so rarely end up in them. Sweden as a member of the EU has open borders towards the rest of the members and very little customs checkpoints. While this is good in most regards, it has made it a trivial task for criminal elements to smuggle in military rifles, pistols and grenades. As a criminal, why go through the risk involved in trying to get one of the legally owned weapons when a former Yugo AK and a box of hand grenades can be yours for $200 equivalent? No I don't know the actual prices but te police say that they are very cheap. This makes legal arms rather unattractive to the criminals. If the US is in a better or worse geographic situation compared to Sweden vis-a-vis gun smuggling, I don't know but I'd wager it changes things. The we'd have history, culture, military, healthcare and a whole slew of other aspects that are different, things that has made Sweden relatively safe but would not be 1:1 applicable to make the US safe. So when the US gun debate use Sweden as an example, without taking the proper context into account, then it's justified to claim that they need to take of their US colored glasses.
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Jul 28, 2018 01:38
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