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Pirate Jet posted:Alright, Zodiac, look: I think I owe you an apology for being so pithy. CineD is a little on edge because I don’t think we’ve had any non-regulars come in here to talk about these movies in good faith in literal years, and you are attempting that, which I appreciate. Asking for evidence to support the scenes of people agreeing with/supporting Thanos led to you folks deciding I must think we aren't allowed to criticize comic book films. I jokingly agreed that Tony was irresponsible in bringing Spidey to the civil war fight and was informed I confused characterization for power levels and very pedantically informed how deeply wrong a bunch of people who said the movie had amazing writing (something I NEVER BROUGHT UP OR WANTED TO TALK ABOUT) are, and that I was clearly one of them. I am so very surprised nobody new wants to come in and try to talk to this shithole subforum.
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Nov 13, 2018 04:01
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Alright, well, I tried to be nice.
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Nov 13, 2018 04:11
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People aren’t taking you seriously because you are using way too many words to write stuff like this: “The logical endpoint of Tony's current tech level is utopia, right? If we think about it for like ten seconds we come to (infinite energy + extremely articulated autonomous self-repairing worker drones) + assumption of benevolence = utopia, right?” And that’s covertly the entire basis of your argument: that because the technological singularity has already taken place, conflicts can only take the form of apolitical petty drama. Tony is jealous of Steve’s new girlfriend. This is because you don’t actually like the movies, which do not depict a utopia - not even a utopia ‘corrupted’ by infighting. The MCU is a hellscape. The trillions of dead aren’t background noise.
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Nov 13, 2018 04:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:People aren’t taking you seriously because you are using way too many words to write stuff like this: People keep using "trillions" to refer to the snap, which sort of makes sense because it's the largest number in popular use. Technically, the term for half the life in the universe universe (or even Earth, counting stuff like bacteriophages) is "an uncountably large number." Which is funny considering the sort of comically low casualty numbers in the previous films. This has been my daily pedantry, thanks for reading.
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Nov 13, 2018 05:00
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Hodgepodge posted:People keep using "trillions" to refer to the snap, which sort of makes sense because it's the largest number in popular use. Technically, the term for half the life in the universe universe (or even Earth, counting stuff like bacteriophages) is "an uncountably large number." Which is funny considering the sort of comically low casualty numbers in the previous films. This is the part where consequences might actually be important, because it was just casually (albeit poorly) revealed that the MCU takes place inside a simulation much smaller than our own reality. The simulation has a population of roughly ten trillion “souls”.
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Nov 13, 2018 05:47
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Zodiac5000 posted:
Go to the horror thread or genchat thread. Both good places with good people.
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Nov 13, 2018 06:18
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is the part where consequences might actually be important, because it was just casually (albeit poorly) revealed that the MCU takes place inside a simulation much smaller than our own reality. I see. The philosophical difference between a "simulation" and an ordinary universe, however, is that one is called a "simulation." (The smaller size being the practical difference). (The philosophical and practical difference between the makers of such a simulation and god is that it allows various people to reveal their lack of simple insight into the topic). e: when the current MCU is destroyed, a new Infinity Gem will be created which will allow the simulation to run scenarios at least as interesting as a Zach Snyder script. Presumably, before the Soul Gem was created, every universe was populated by p-zombies. When you consider that the Reality, Time, Mind, and Space gems had to be created first, it paints a rather bleak picture of the previous universes. Depending on your interpretation of "Power," this is the first or second MCU that approaches our own in terms of habitability by human-like intelligence. For example, if "Power" means energy, it had to be one of the first gems, preceding Time and Space, let alone Mind or Soul. If it means agency, however, then it came immediately before the current MCU and every aspect of the previous universe was simply overdetermined to such a degree that there was no room for the beings within it to exercise any form of decision-making. more e: If you think about it, it makes sense for each universe to be the test run of the concept which would eventually form into the resulting gem. If there was no simulated reality, what would the Reality Gem form from? So the God/s made the Reality Gem, then used it to run a simulation to make Space (or possibly Power), then Time. Then they had a basic universe which can be inhabited by minds to make a Mind Gem from. Then they had something interesting to work with. Presumably, this is, from our perspective, the Plot Gem universe, although the inhabitants of the next will probably call it the Fate Gem. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Nov 13, 2018 |
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Nov 13, 2018 06:41
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Pirate Jet posted:Alright, well, I tried to be nice. in the ruthless cinema d jungle, apologizing is just showing weakness
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Nov 13, 2018 07:08
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Zodiac5000 posted:Asking for evidence to support the scenes of people agreeing with/supporting Thanos led to you folks deciding I must think we aren't allowed to criticize comic book films. I jokingly agreed that Tony was irresponsible in bringing Spidey to the civil war fight and was informed I confused characterization for power levels and very pedantically informed how deeply wrong a bunch of people who said the movie had amazing writing (something I NEVER BROUGHT UP OR WANTED TO TALK ABOUT) are, and that I was clearly one of them. It's because you post long nonsensical stuff.
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Nov 13, 2018 07:39
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Hodgepodge posted:Which is funny considering the sort of comically low casualty numbers in the previous films. "Thanos Snapped: Hundreds dead" should be the headline of a random newspaper in the background in Defenders or something.
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Nov 13, 2018 10:54
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Zodiac5000 posted:
You keep posting long explanations to explain/excuse dumb/lazy creative decisions in these movies, and when people say that it doesn't make said decisions any less dumb/lazy (and explain why they find it such) you get defensive. If you agree it's dumb/lazy, then there's no need to post the long overwrought rationalization of the dumb/lazy creative decisions, you can just go "yeah, that's dumb".
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Nov 13, 2018 11:06
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Grendels Dad posted:"Thanos Snapped: Hundreds dead" should be the headline of a random newspaper in the background in Defenders or something. "Mad Titan Evidently Unaware of Stark Post-Scarcity Technology" could be the byline!
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Nov 13, 2018 12:39
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McCloud posted:You keep posting long explanations to explain/excuse dumb/lazy creative decisions in these movies, and when people say that it doesn't make said decisions any less dumb/lazy (and explain why they find it such) you get defensive. If you agree it's dumb/lazy, then there's no need to post the long overwrought rationalization of the dumb/lazy creative decisions, you can just go "yeah, that's dumb". If the explanation/rationalization isn't even interesting, why bother?
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Nov 13, 2018 15:24
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Grendels Dad posted:"Thanos Snapped: Hundreds dead" should be the headline of a random newspaper in the background in Defenders or something. It says a lot about the writing of the MCU that the supposed tragedy of Thanos’ victory at the end of Infinity War is focused entirely on All Ur Favs, rather than half the entire loving universe being wiped out. Like to people who buy into that ending, my question is, were you sad that half the universe was murdered, or that Spider-Man was sad? And people have the audacity of making hay of the destruction of Metropolis in MoS. At least those losses were given fair consideration.
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Nov 13, 2018 15:41
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Fart City posted:It says a lot about the writing of the MCU that the supposed tragedy of Thanos’ victory at the end of Infinity War is focused entirely on All Ur Favs, rather than half the entire loving universe being wiped out. Like to people who buy into that ending, my question is, were you sad that half the universe was murdered, or that Spider-Man was sad? I pointed out the movie's weird lack of interest in showing normal people react to this rapture-like event, and I got couple of "uh, did you see the post-credits scene?" responses. Wow, a few citizens got dusted, I'm truly emotionally devastated by this galactic apocalypse. I'm not saying IW should have had a long scene of every single planet affected by the snap, but you can't have such massive stakes and then treat the very people the heroes were trying to protect as an afterthought shoved into a post-credit scene.
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Nov 13, 2018 16:19
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Equeen posted:I pointed out the movie's weird lack of interest in showing normal people react to this rapture-like event, and I got couple of "uh, did you see the post-credits scene?" responses. Wow, a few citizens got dusted, I'm truly emotionally devastated by this galactic apocalypse. A post-credit scene where the focus wasn't even on them, to boot. They were an afterthought to an afterthought. McCloud fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Nov 13, 2018 |
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Nov 13, 2018 16:28
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Equeen posted:I pointed out the movie's weird lack of interest in showing normal people react to this rapture-like event, and I got couple of "uh, did you see the post-credits scene?" responses. Wow, a few citizens got dusted, I'm truly emotionally devastated by this galactic apocalypse. Just put it next to a real movie like War of the Worlds 2005 and see how ridiculous it is.
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Nov 13, 2018 16:30
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The responses to that were extremely similar to the responses from this most previous argument: i.e. "what do you want them to do, show stuff? Where exactly would they even add that in??"
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Nov 13, 2018 16:52
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I feel like they could have shown Spider-Man’s hot mom or girlfriend dying, but they probably didn’t want to pay and knew people would go, “who the hell is that?” And there aren’t really other supporting characters in any of the other movies even there to get killed back on Earth. I guess Stan Lee (in 2017)?
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Nov 13, 2018 17:49
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I feel like they could have shown Spider-Man’s hot mom or girlfriend dying, but they probably didn’t want to pay and knew people would go, “who the hell is that?” And there aren’t really other supporting characters in any of the other movies even there to get killed back on Earth. I guess Stan Lee (in 2017)? We saw enough supporting cast that you could bounce around to see what's happening through their eyes if we really needed someone who had appeared in the movie to be that focal point: Pepper, Ned, Wong, Ross, just off the tip top of my head I don't think you need an actual named character to be that focal point tho, Guardians 2 did fine flashing all the way back to Earth (where literally no characters relevant to that series existed) to show the blue blobs attacking. Or they could pull a Whedon and introduce an Eastern European family complete with racist theme music haha
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Nov 13, 2018 17:57
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Guy A. Person posted:The responses to that were extremely similar to the responses from this most previous argument: I don't think this is accurate and Equeen is being somewhat disingenuous with portraying that exchange. He/She said "the movie doesn't show a single person effected by the snap", and based the 'movie is disinterested' premise on that. The credits scene was pointed out and Equeen apologized for being wrong. Nobody commented on how the after credit scene should make people care. The "When should this be done" topic wasn't really mined until you brought up Rhodes, I think? I gave an example of how his behavior changed and asked what kind of a scene folks wanted and when it should be, but it never really got responded to, it may have gotten lost though, at that point McCloud informed me that some people think the MCU is art, and I called them morons, and we had the last page's kerfuffle. SuperMechagodzilla posted:And that’s covertly the entire basis of your argument: that because the technological singularity has already taken place, conflicts can only take the form of apolitical petty drama. Tony is jealous of Steve’s new girlfriend. What? My problem is that the Marvel Universe isn't a Utopia? I'm not following this train at all. I called the MCU horrifying. I would probably call all the dead folks background noise though. They're not really who I was interested in at least. Zodiac5000 posted:It would be horrifying if almost any part of the MCU existed in reality.
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Nov 13, 2018 22:28
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Zodiac5000 posted:I don't think this is accurate and Equeen is being somewhat disingenuous with portraying that exchange. He/She said "the movie doesn't show a single person effected by the snap", and based the 'movie is disinterested' premise on that. The credits scene was pointed out and Equeen apologized for being wrong. Nobody commented on how the after credit scene should make people care. I realize that I conflated Equeen's comment with an earlier (like way earlier, shortly after the movie came out) argument about how they should have focused a lot more screen time on the big apocalyptic event at the end of the movie. There were defenses that were about how it wasn't necessary that I am just describing in a flippant manner. There was the Rhodes thing but there was also the slightly earlier example you gave about how they could have shown the influence of Stark's technology in the form of hologram watches in the background. Again though, I was mostly just being flippant for comic effect.
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Nov 13, 2018 22:50
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Zodiac5000 posted:What? My problem is that the Marvel Universe isn't a Utopia? I'm not following this train at all. I called the MCU horrifying. I would probably call all the dead folks background noise though. They're not really who I was interested in at least. You did not write that the films are horrifying. You wrote that the films would be horrifying if they were not comic book fantasies. But since they are comic books you force yourself to “accept” that the characters are a priori good, and focus exclusively on the mild interpersonal dramas because you believe you aren’t supposed to think about anything else. In a frankly bizarre double-deflection, your stance is that the films do not depict a dystopia but a utopia merely corrupted by the ‘mental illness’ of the hero characters - while also insisting we should ignore the mental illness because that detracts from the heroism fantasy. We are not supposed to think about society. We are not supposed to think about anything at all except the bare dynamics of Tony and Steve. Even thinking of them as boss and employee is going too far. Tony and Steve are upset with eachother because Tony was mean to Wanda. That’s it. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 13, 2018 |
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Nov 13, 2018 23:32
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https://youtu.be/VtRDE5GnU2Y
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Dec 7, 2018 20:53
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Woo hoo, who else is hyped for
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Dec 8, 2018 13:11
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I still can't believe they hosed up so bad that they didn't get Harry Dean Stanton back (he helps the Hulk out in Avengers 1) to scream "Avenge Me!" at the top of his lungs while snappening away like how he went out in Red Dawn.
Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jan 13, 2019 |
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Jan 13, 2019 01:04
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Neo Rasa posted:I still can't believe they hosed up so bad that they didn't get Harry Dean Stanton back (he helps the Hulk out in Avengers 1) to scream "Avenge Me!" at the top of his lungs while snappening away like how he went out in Red Dawn. He died in 2017 
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Jan 13, 2019 20:08
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Mechafunkzilla posted:He died in 2017 They have Stan Lee cameos filmed to cover them into like 2022. 
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Jan 13, 2019 20:39
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Fart City posted:The MCU has a weird issue with collateral damage in general. Like, the invasion of NYC has a casualty number in the low 70’s. The friggin helicarrier crash in Winter Soldier is something under 30. Where are these casualty numbers listed? I always thought Marvel avoided talking about that. NYC having low 70s is hilarious when you think about buildings getting wrecked by the weird flying snake thing. I'm just going to assume those numbers are in-universe propaganda. (That Marvel Studios is using to make movies more marketable/family friendly)
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Jan 13, 2019 21:31
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Listed in a scene in Civil War.
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Jan 13, 2019 21:46
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The new york battle in avengers took part in the derelict district. I mean what luck....
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Jan 14, 2019 09:46
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Nah man. Loki was using his influence the whole time to minimize casualties?
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Jan 14, 2019 11:33
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Spacebump posted:Where are these casualty numbers listed? I always thought Marvel avoided talking about that. NYC having low 70s is hilarious when you think about buildings getting wrecked by the weird flying snake thing. Exactly what it is, like in Civil War they really do straight up tell the Avengers in a closed doors meeting that 74 people died total in Avengers 1's battle. It was genuinely laughable. And then while it is mentioned how Stark creating Ultron was kind of a booboo, the main event that sets off the accords and stuff is Scarlet Witch flinging a bomb into the air uncontrollably so that it kills some civilians instead of a huge number of civilians. Not that comic book movies should be realistic, but the Avengers being like quasi-government employees and stuff this seems like an amazingly good track record compared to any other branch of the government that kills folks so it was all around pretty insane. The Croc posted:The new york battle in avengers took part in the derelict district. I mean what luck.... I still think the funnier version of this was how they had to do whole "nothing matters" mirror universe thing with Dr. Strange to explain how Dr. Strange and all associated characters are just being introduced now despite having huge magical battles throughout Midtown. I was kind of surprised by how much those visuals were praised by folks when the movie came out. Like the initial multidimensional trip Tilda Swinton sends him on looked great but the mirror universe stuff was pretty whatever.
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Jan 14, 2019 16:40
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The Croc posted:The new york battle in avengers took part in the derelict district. I mean what luck.... Just random chance that the initial plasma bombing took place in the empty taxi staging area they keep right in the middle of downtown Manhattan. If that was an actual densely populated NYC street full of cars with real people inside, hundreds would have died within the first few seconds of the attack! evobatman posted:Listed in a scene in Civil War. There was also a headline in Daredevil that I think abstracted it to "hundreds" which was still comically low. But yeah the official CW death toll of 74 is hilarious. That would be like a single mostly full bus getting blown up.
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Jan 14, 2019 16:46
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Neo Rasa posted:Exactly what it is, like in Civil War they really do straight up tell the Avengers in a closed doors meeting that 74 people died total in Avengers 1's battle. It was genuinely laughable. And then while it is mentioned how Stark creating Ultron was kind of a booboo, the main event that sets off the accords and stuff is Scarlet Witch flinging a bomb into the air uncontrollably so that it kills some civilians instead of a huge number of civilians. Not that comic book movies should be realistic, but the Avengers being like quasi-government employees and stuff this seems like an amazingly good track record compared to any other branch of the government that kills folks so it was all around pretty insane. The Accords storyline in Civil War was so frustrating, nothing about that made any sense, nor would it be even remotely enforceable. I do want to know Thors reaction to being compared to a nuclear weapon though.
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Jan 14, 2019 17:06
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With the tone of the movies he'd probably take it as a compliment and there would be jokes about who had the bigger yield or whatever. In the context of that scene I always found it frustrating that nobody pushed back on Ross describing them that way. They're sentient beings, Thor is freaking alien royalty for goodness sake and Ross is reducing them to weapons that need to be contained. Should have been a big red flag but their teammates just shrug and look at the floor because it advances the plot.
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Jan 14, 2019 17:11
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It’s also pretty lol that Tony Stark spends the first two Iron Man movies bucking the influence of the American government because he believes that he’s the only one who can responsibly tackle the big picture threats, only to completely acquiesce to the government in Civil War after it was revealed that the senator who tried to take the Iron Man technology in Iron Man 2 was a Hydra agent. But what’s the point of consistency in a joined universe?
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Jan 14, 2019 17:25
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I said come in! posted:The Accords storyline in Civil War was so frustrating, nothing about that made any sense, nor would it be even remotely enforceable. I do want to know Thors reaction to being compared to a nuclear weapon though. Guy A. Person posted:In the context of that scene I always found it frustrating that nobody pushed back on Ross describing them that way. They're sentient beings, Thor is freaking alien royalty for goodness sake and Ross is reducing them to weapons that need to be contained. Should have been a big red flag but their teammates just shrug and look at the floor because it advances the plot. For real. In the comics Iron Man is pro-registration and Captain America is anti-registration. But their characters in the previous movies, like Stark is the ultra libertarian there should be no accountability for me personally+my fellow heroes ever no matter what guy and Cap is the very much against him and the we need to be reigned in guy so it's like they had to make everyone an idiot to get them on the same sides they were on in the comics or something. Plus they made the accords seem so written in stone even after Stark is basically like huh Cap is right let's sign them and if we disagree with the UN later we'll just not follow them at that point (which the Avengers have already done multiple times to the US government at this point) but it's still treated as this earth shattering change in how things work. And then the biggest stupid thing was how Cap was about to sign the accords and then doesn't just because Scarlet Witch is under house arrest until she learns to control her powers better. And that was like supreme stupidity given her powers were poorly defined "do whatever the plot needs to have done" powers so like, that makes sense? I mean I'd want to stay inside too until I learned to work that poo poo a little better. I actually liked Civil War quit a bit overall like once the pieces were in place and it got moving but they really really had to contort themselves to get there and it holds the movie back. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jan 14, 2019 |
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Jan 14, 2019 17:26
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Fart City posted:It’s also pretty lol that Tony Stark spends the first two Iron Man movies bucking the influence of the American government because he believes that he’s the only one who can responsibly tackle the big picture threats And then he creates a global conflict because of hubris in Ultron. So maybe he's got a chip on his shoulder a bit? Guy A. Person posted:They're sentient beings, Thor is freaking alien royalty for goodness sake
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Jan 14, 2019 17:32
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IM3 is a movie about PTSD, but Stark comes to terms with his place in the world at the end. The problem is Age Of Ultron then retcons him into being a fear-based reactionary, which Civil War doubles down on. At some point “Tony Stark is afraid of what will come” became the default read on the character. Ironically that PTSD vanishes for some reason when Thanos shows up and those fears are made manifest.
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Jan 14, 2019 17:38
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