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The author is dumb because they failed to recognize that black nationalism reflects every othet kind if nationalism in both intent and effect - concerns over 'purity' are and have always been rooted in reactionary politics. Reactionary Islam including ISIS and Al qaeda got their start in moral panics over western music/culture 'invading' them, and the hyper reactionary breed of politics they advocate stems from a desire to retain purity by 'finding ones roots'. But such exercises are always flights of fancy, because people don't have roots, because they're aren't plants, stuck in one place forever. They are free to move wherever they want and limits only exist if they want them to. Reactionary politics cannot conceit that truth, and so creates a fallicious stagnant history to justify itself. It should be of no surprise that such reactionary tendencies can exist in every society and every peoples. And it should be seen for what it is: trash.
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May 12, 2018 23:21
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i couldn't read this because she's not writing in english
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May 12, 2018 23:23
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article on the internet (no jokes this thread has never been funny) posted:One thing Zizek is unequivocal about here is that the terms of these struggles around identity politics and secondary contradictions must be set by these communities themselves. Later in the polemic, he refers to the famous encounter between Malcolm X and the sympathetic white female student in which Malcolm suggests that white liberals “should first accept that black liberation should be the work of the blacks themselves, not something bestowed on them as a gift by the good white liberals.” White liberals can only join the black struggle on the terms set by black revolutionaries themselves. Slavoj Zizek posted:
With all due respect, sir, but you seem to have no idea what you're talking about. Black nationalism is not a reactionary movement.
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May 12, 2018 23:25
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get that OUT of my face posted:i couldn't read this because she's not writing in english White intellectuals are hypocrites because they accuse minorities of thinking there is something inherent to being a black person or whatever (think in the sense of original sin but cooler, an "essence" that you can't get rid of) when they themselves encourage this by thinking there is some essence to being black that can then be used to spice up their boring white middle class lives. Or something like that, it's very American.
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May 12, 2018 23:27
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I would question the role of the "young white radical" and the "white intellectual" here. If I was to identify the critic of essentialism here, it wouldn't be someone that fit either of those descriptions, but someone like Adolph Reed. Without those figures, who seem to take on their own role as the Other, the whole apparatus turns in on itself and asks how radical a critique of cultural appropriation can really be.
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May 12, 2018 23:59
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Lastgirl posted:sir this is a dead comedy forum 
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May 13, 2018 00:06
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cultural appropriation is how you can stretch "racism is bad" into a 12000 word medium article
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May 13, 2018 00:15
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Is rickys mlk jr shirt cultural appropriation?
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May 13, 2018 00:17
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posting good is cultural appropriation of other subforums
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May 13, 2018 00:27
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its good, unless its bad
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May 13, 2018 00:43
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viral spiral posted:What about a black sushi chef? Virtually every single chef in my city (Milan, Italy), sushi or otherwise, is Indian. No idea why but seemingly every time you peek into a kitchen, it's a couple subcontinent guys, be it a sushi restaurant or a cafeteria or an old school tavern or American-style bakery or Mexican restaurant or etc. This is OK magnavox space odyssey posted:White intellectuals are hypocrites because they accuse minorities of thinking there is something inherent to being a black person or whatever (think in the sense of original sin but cooler, an "essence" that you can't get rid of) when they themselves encourage this by thinking there is some essence to being black that can then be used to spice up their boring white middle class lives. Is this true, though?
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May 13, 2018 01:01
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hackbunny posted:Is this true, though? i assume bell hooks has done some research and has some experience in the matter
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May 13, 2018 01:06
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i was searching someone's twitter timeline for hot takes and saw a retweet from someone saying that the catholic-themed dresses at the met gala weren't cultural appropriation. in her mind, the term only applies if someone with power in society (a white person, usually) coopts anything from a less privileged culture. that's a kind of definition i don't appreciatehackbunny posted:Virtually every single chef in my city (Milan, Italy), sushi or otherwise, is Indian. No idea why but seemingly every time you peek into a kitchen, it's a couple subcontinent guys, be it a sushi restaurant or a cafeteria or an old school tavern or American-style bakery or Mexican restaurant or etc. This is OK
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May 13, 2018 01:30
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get that OUT of my face posted:in her mind, the term only applies if someone with power in society (a white person, usually) coopts anything from a less privileged culture. that's a kind of definition i don't appreciate That's literally the definition.
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May 13, 2018 01:34
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Gareth Gobulcoque posted:That's literally the definition.
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May 13, 2018 01:56
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Al! posted:i assume bell hooks has done some research and has some experience in the matter What about forums poster and hot take server magnavox space odyssey?
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May 13, 2018 01:57
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get that OUT of my face posted:when that definition is applied as broadly as it is by certain people, that's what makes me want them to step back a bit. i'm not appropriating mexican culture by making burritos, i'm making a yummy meal this is white fragility in a nutshell, imo who loving cares if someone thinks you're doing something potentially problematic, just roll with it instead of getting personally offended and announcing to the whole world that you don't believe in their definition
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May 13, 2018 02:08
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The only real cultural appropriation is when non-white people have bad opinions online. That's our sacred rite of manhood, assholes.
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May 13, 2018 02:12
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RaySmuckles posted:swapping class for race, punk was appropriated too. Punk wasn't invented by working class Brits lol.
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May 13, 2018 03:30
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Main Paineframe posted:this is white fragility in a nutshell, imo
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May 13, 2018 03:37
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Main Paineframe posted:this is white fragility in a nutshell, imo this is bizarre as hell though. you're saying that if someone is criticizing your behavior, it's better to accept the criticism as legitimate but ignore it because it's inconvenient.
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May 13, 2018 03:44
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magnavox space odyssey posted:With all due respect, sir, but you seem to have no idea what you're talking about. Black nationalism is not a reactionary movement.
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May 13, 2018 03:47
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Main Paineframe posted:this is white fragility in a nutshell, imo Well, I think people want to live their lives according to what they think is right. And if someone tells them something is potentially problematic then they probably are going to seek out why and how and what they should do about it. Perhaps also ask what it is and what they can do, potentially. At least IMO. Is anyone getting personally offended over this? hackbunny posted:What about forums poster and hot take server magnavox space odyssey? I can answer this question for him: I have neither the experience or the knowledge of that author that was quoted. Hope this answers the question 
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May 13, 2018 03:47
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tractor fanatic posted:this is bizarre as hell though. you're saying that if someone is criticizing your behavior, it's better to accept the criticism as legitimate but ignore it because it's inconvenient. even if the criticism is wrong, it's okay to just let people be wrong rather than get super offended about it and declare that it can't possibly be true accept it as a difference of opinion, rather than going on an angry rant about how someone's concerns can't possibly exist if a black guy tells me something is racist, i'm not going to go "nuh-uh". even if i think it's not racist and that he's full of poo poo, i don't need to have my way about loving everything. i can allow other people's opinions to exist unchallenged, and the initial impulse to challenge it is born from the privileged existence I've lived magnavox space odyssey posted:Well, I think people want to live their lives according to what they think is right. And if someone tells them something is potentially problematic then they probably are going to seek out why and how and what they should do about it. Perhaps also ask what it is and what they can do, potentially. At least IMO. the problem is that it's extremely similar to your average white person on the street who, when confronted with the fact that whatever he does consistently awards better results to whites than to everyone else, goes on an enraged meltdown about how structural racism doesn't exist. rather than accepting the possibility that they may possibly have had some relation to something that could potentially be called racism, they just get hyper defensive and deny that the type of racism in question even exists i think there's a lot of bullshit out there surrounding "cultural appropriation", and i think the majority of people flinging the accusation have no loving idea what they're talking about. but to jump straight from that to "actually, not only does cultural appropriation not exist, but culture doesn't exist either and you're just trying to be a hyper-woke lib" sounds a lot like that same kind of kneejerk defensiveness response
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May 13, 2018 04:30
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so other people have the right to impose their lovely opinions on you to possible social detriment and its totally healthy to just eat their poo poo because standing up for yourself is super privileged
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May 13, 2018 04:37
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Wheeee posted:so other people have the right to impose their lovely opinions on you to possible social detriment and its totally healthy to just eat their poo poo because standing up for yourself is super privileged oh no, someone might be mean to you on twitter however will you survive
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May 13, 2018 04:41
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the best response to people being mean to you is to be mean back, until they stop, because you can't negotiate with bullies
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May 13, 2018 04:46
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I think it's a good idea for people to argue for ideas they think are right and argue against ideas they think are wrong because that is a big way we improve as a species. I think a whole bunch of people just nodding and accepting the information they're given without argument even if they disagree is a pathway to figurative damnation. I don't argue against cultural appropriation because it makes me mad, I argue against it because I believe I should argue against things I disagree with. I mean loving seriously. If a black person tells you something is racist, you disagree, but you say nothing, it's actually a disservice to them. Why? Because you didn't actually get their point. Because you didn't share your objections you didn't give the other person the opportunity to address them. So you still have them. One or both of you are wrong but neither of you get the opportunity to truly gain from the other person's insight. They go away thinking they convinced you but really all they did was have you pat them on the head and say good idea black person, I totally accept this information for it is my duty as a YT to listen to you. It's not helpful. It's just intellectual laziness and social cowardice. Futuresight has issued a correction as of 05:03 on May 13, 2018 |
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May 13, 2018 04:57
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cultural appropriation wouldn't even be an issue if it hadn't been reframed from asking "does doing this make me a rude oval office?"
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May 13, 2018 05:01
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broke: defending your actions and opinions woke: accepting you’re a huge piece of poo poo and not giving a gently caress
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May 13, 2018 05:02
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it really gives the game away when dipshits pushing this stuff basically end up arguing 'even when i'm wrong, i still get to insult and demean you for no reason, and you better TAKE IT because otherwise you're a SHITLORD', it's the most transparent rationalization of harassment & bullying that i've ever seen.
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May 13, 2018 05:06
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May 13, 2018 05:10
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lets say you see a pit bull wandering around a supermarket parking lot no leash just slobbering everywhere following kids aroudn and when it stops to lick a big old sore on its hindquarters you notice its balls are full and juicy. this bad boy isn't even fixed... you start looking around for its owner and what the hell its some white guy with a beard! that. is. not. cool. Armond Poopson has issued a correction as of 05:26 on May 13, 2018 |
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May 13, 2018 05:10
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Main Paineframe posted:if a black guy tells me something is racist, i'm not going to go "nuh-uh". even if i think it's not racist and that he's full of poo poo, i don't need to have my way about loving everything. i can allow other people's opinions to exist unchallenged, and the initial impulse to challenge it is born from the privileged existence I've lived lol god forbid you have a conversation about it
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May 13, 2018 06:31
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Ok I have an answer to the OP. Thanks beer. Cultural markers are a signifier of in group/ out group dynamics. Recognized minority populations wield a certain amount of power due to their recognized minority status. This is not an equitable power, but it is some limited form of power. Like "me too" or, more vulgarly, "playing the race card". Systemic forces overwhelming prevail, but the assertion of minority status to systemic inequality is a power that can be wielded in individual circumstances. The ingress of herirarchical power structures into minority cultures degrades in group/ out group signifiers and thus weakens the limited individual power of assertion of minority status and thus erodes a source of power. That's cultural appropriation. Maybe? I dunno. Who cares.
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May 13, 2018 06:33
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rudatron posted:it really gives the game away when dipshits pushing this stuff basically end up arguing 'even when i'm wrong, i still get to insult and demean you for no reason, and you better TAKE IT because otherwise you're a SHITLORD', it's the most transparent rationalization of harassment & bullying that i've ever seen. -posted from locker #420
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May 13, 2018 06:45
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rudatron posted:it really gives the game away when dipshits pushing this stuff basically end up arguing 'even when i'm wrong, i still get to insult and demean you for no reason, and you better TAKE IT because otherwise you're a SHITLORD', it's the most transparent rationalization of harassment & bullying that i've ever seen. thank you for very concisely demonstrating my point the fact that you think someone talking about cultural appropriation is equivalent to them personally insulting you, demeaning you, bullying you, harassing you, and calling you a huge piece of poo poo is basically the definition of white fragility merely suggesting that someone is insufficiently woke is apparently the most potent personal attack in all existence, and draws an equally visceral response Futuresight posted:I think it's a good idea for people to argue for ideas they think are right and argue against ideas they think are wrong because that is a big way we improve as a species. I think a whole bunch of people just nodding and accepting the information they're given without argument even if they disagree is a pathway to figurative damnation. I don't argue against cultural appropriation because it makes me mad, I argue against it because I believe I should argue against things I disagree with. "is X offensive to me" is inherently a personal, subjective question. it's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of feelings and respect. it's not really up for argument. if someone says that something is offensive to them, that's just how they feel about it, and you can't really say that's wrong (unless they're a loving Nazi, white supremacist, or some other flavor of racial murder fetishist or genocide advocate). instead of trying to demand that they justify their feelings with beep-boop logic, why not take a minute to think about how this drive to argue everything you disagree with might interact with the well-known and well-documented tendency for non-white and non-male voices to be drowned out in pretty much every setting
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May 13, 2018 06:46
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Main Paineframe posted:"is X offensive to me" is inherently a personal, subjective question. it's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of feelings and respect. it's not really up for argument. if someone says that something is offensive to them, that's just how they feel about it, and you can't really say that's wrong (unless they're a loving Nazi, white supremacist, or some other flavor of racial murder fetishist or genocide advocate). instead of trying to demand that they justify their feelings with beep-boop logic, why not take a minute to think about how this drive to argue everything you disagree with might interact with the well-known and well-documented tendency for non-white and non-male voices to be drowned out in pretty much every setting yeah engaging someone in conversation is actually drowning out their voice, great point
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May 13, 2018 06:50
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Main Paineframe posted:thank you for very concisely demonstrating my point like this poo poo: Main Paineframe posted:oh no, someone might be mean to you on twitter
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May 13, 2018 06:58
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Main Paineframe posted:"is X offensive to me" is inherently a personal, subjective question. it's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of feelings and respect. it's not really up for argument. if someone says that something is offensive to them, that's just how they feel about it, and you can't really say that's wrong True. But what you said, and what I was replying to is: Main Paineframe posted:if a black guy tells me something is racist Which is very different. The words "to me" change everything, you can't just throw them on and pretend like you're making the same argument. And obviously it changes based on circumstance. But if you are having a conversation with someone you should have an actual conversation. On these boards I'm either going to decide I don't give enough of a gently caress to argue or I'm going to argue against things I don't agree with. I'm never going to decide not to argue out of respect, because I don't believe it's a respectful thing to do. There's a reason everyone on the planet will say "got it?" or "any questions?" or some variation after they'd taught you something. If you're trying to teach someone something you want them to bring up misunderstandings or things they don't get so you can fix them. Teaching someone a political/social concept should be the same if your purpose it to genuinely convince them. EDIT: Oh, just realised this: quote:if a black guy tells me something is racist, i'm not going to go "nuh-uh". even if i think it's not racist and that he's full of poo poo, i don't need to have my way about loving everything. i can allow other people's opinions to exist unchallenged, and the initial impulse to challenge it is born from the privileged existence I've lived Nope. People argue with and challenge people all the loving time and some of the most uneven power dynamics contain argument from the lower person (children arguing with parents/teachers/etc). The ability to not care, to have someone give you an opinion and not even feel the need to argue your own is the thing you learned from privilege. It is the knowledge that regardless of what the other person thinks it won't affect you that allows you to not care what others think. A person of another race is dictating to you how people of your race should act and you don't care because you know it doesn't loving matter what that person thinks because your side is the one with the actual power. Futuresight has issued a correction as of 07:31 on May 13, 2018 |
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May 13, 2018 07:20
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