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Squalid posted:Nobody ever said it was going to be easy. well, it's extremely easy for the person whose proposed solution is "close your eyes, close your ears, and just hope the republicans stop being meanies" saves you the trouble of advocating for anything
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Aug 20, 2018 00:50
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I keep telling you people: Taught wrong, on purpose, as a joke. They think losing is winning.
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Aug 20, 2018 01:51
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Squalid posted:Or instead of forcing them to acknowledge the costs, you might just convince them they have to double down harder. What you really don't want is for both sides to start feeling they have to get even, or settle the score, or revenge some slight. Ultimately somebody has to turn the cheek or the situation can spiral out of control. This post wears smug imbecility like it was a bespoke suit. Squalid posted:I don't really think the right is getting more radicalized. quote:I've said this before itt, but I think the supposed resurgence of the far right is actually just a reflection of our short memories. Remember Strom loving Thurmond was a member of the Senate until 2001 -- What we now call white nationalism was just mainstream common sense not so long ago. Thirty-three years ago there were still sundown towns, and residents were completely open about not wanting blacks in town. You know one or two things about the situation but nowhere near enough to make this kind of assertion. Yes, certain things were much worse 30 odd years ago. But the thing you don't understand is that 30 odd years ago the core of Republican power resided in a group of entrenched elites who understood the dangers of allowing the crazies they were manipulating into actual power. Since then the crazies have become the new entrenched elite via the Council for National Policy and currently (for all intents and purposes) run the party. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3WZlWhQbns Reminder that Barry Goldwater was in his time considered an absurd extremist and lost his presidential bid in an impressive landslide. The Republican party has massively radicalized since then and is presently radicalizing before our very eyes.
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Aug 20, 2018 02:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I keep telling you people: Taught wrong, on purpose, as a joke. They think losing is winning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqaCEPwWGtc
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Aug 20, 2018 02:54
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Communism will never EVER penetrate the us mainstream. There will never be a class war here either...
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Aug 20, 2018 03:48
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Prester Jane posted:You know one or two things about the situation but nowhere near enough to make this kind of assertion. Perhaps this is something we have in common.
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Aug 20, 2018 03:55
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LeoMarr posted:Communism will never EVER penetrate the us mainstream. There will never be a class war here either... Unironically this, in case it wasn't unironic to begin with.
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Aug 20, 2018 04:01
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Unfortunate because there'll just continue to be one sided misery and death until it does.
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Aug 20, 2018 04:53
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LeoMarr posted:Communism will never EVER penetrate the us mainstream. There will never be a class war here either... Eh, class war isn't impossible. It already happened in the past. The snag is that it has to get monumentally worse before it happens. Given that borders are melting it's more likely that America will have extreme brain drain issues and lag behind the rest of the world in basically every meaningful way. It'll be left with badly educated, angry conservatives that will pick a very stupid fight which America will lose.
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Aug 20, 2018 10:05
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Eh, class war isn't impossible. It already happened in the past. The snag is that it has to get monumentally worse before it happens. It’s unfortunate at this point that America will just destroy the rest of the world as it loses. There’s no place far enough away from it.
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Aug 20, 2018 11:02
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Squalid posted:Nobody ever said it was going to be easy. This is the definition of appeasement. If we just do nothing really hard - no. No, it's gonna be real, real easy to do nothing, and nothing will be gained. Your 'plan' involves you doing nothing but with the benefit of being able to soothe your anxiety by playing pretend that, hey, maybe the worst people this country has to offer will, in a spontaneous gesture of charity completely alien to their mindset, on some beautiful day, pause to gawk at your virtuous rear end sitting in your high chair being so civil by passively watching the country burn, and maybe, just maybe, they'll be so impressed they'll toss aside years of behaviors that have gotten them nearly everything they've ever wanted and decide to be just like you. Christ. No, modeling civility and bipartisanship won't work, because anyone who hasn't drunk the very particular variety of Kool-Aid you're butt-chugging will see you as you are - someone who's doing nothing, getting none of the things they want, and holier-than-thou enough to think their very existence constitutes a persuasive argument. Right now the Right only sees benefit in kicking over the bipartisan sandcastle, because as it stands there are are only benefits for them. They won't change their behavior until costs are imposed, and that's not going to come from their base, and so it has to come from us. p.s. the right very often directly equate the use of force with moral authority. they've successfuly demonized the left as a cabal of pedophilic muslim fake-americans in all the years we've shown civility and offered bipartisan overtures. maybe, just maybe, they'll respect us more if we stop letting them take their shots without consequence. ThirdEmperor fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Aug 20, 2018 |
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Aug 20, 2018 13:04
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ThirdEmperor posted:This is the definition of appeasement. If we just do nothing really hard - no. No, it's gonna be real, real easy to do nothing, and nothing will be gained. Your 'plan' involves you doing nothing but with the benefit of being able to soothe your anxiety by playing pretend that, hey, maybe the worst people this country has to offer will, in a spontaneous gesture of charity completely alien to their mindset, on some beautiful day, pause to gawk at your virtuous rear end sitting in your high chair being so civil by passively watching the country burn, and maybe, just maybe, they'll be so impressed they'll toss aside years of behaviors that have gotten them nearly everything they've ever wanted and decide to be just like you. I've been rather careful not to state any sort of specific political strategy so I'm not sure what exactly you think my plan is, and don't really have any interest in discussing it in this thread. However I will admit that I find it disturbing how few people today seem to believe it is possible to coexist at all with their political rivals, and are willing to do anything necessary to win. If you think American conservatives are some kind of exceptionally alien, paranoid, violent, disingenuous and radical group, you're wrong. When you look at real civil wars, often they don't end in any climactic battle. There's not storming of Berlin. Just years of negotiations before everybody agrees to put down their arms and go home, and often that means murderers living next door to their victims. This is the reality for millions of people today in Nicaragua, Cambodia, and Rwanda. In a perfect world we could exact justice against all of the genocidaires, but in the real world sometimes you have to choose between justice and peace. Which choice is right is never easy to say. There's one great photo journal on reconciliation in Rwanda. It can be pretty hard to look at. https://www.jeremycowart.com/reconciliation/  Gasperd, 35, (pictured right) locks arms with Innocent (named after he was forgiven), 38, (left), the man who killed his older brother during the 1994 Rwandan genocide. Gasperd and Innocent later reconciled while attending a workshop hosted by the As We Forgive Rwanda Initiative and today work together in an agricultural association. They are pictured in the exact spot where the murder took place. A lot of the people involved in this reconciliation aren't necessarily happy. They want to see justice done, but when the alternative is more fighting, more death, people are willing to make sacrifices. Now if nations are willing to make these sacrifices after literal genocide, how absurd is it to dismiss the possibility of coexistence after nothing more than a bit of procedural fuckery? If you think progressives can just win everything they ever wanted with the application of a little more force I fear you may find yourself disappointed. Prester Jane posted:Since then the crazies have become the new entrenched elite via the Council for National Policy and currently (for all intents and purposes) run the party. Since you've criticized me for ignorance I couldn't help but look up some more data. Looking at the opinion polling, theevidence of Republican radicalization on issues of race appears to be mixed. From Pew for example:   It's interesting how since 2010, Republican opinion on whether discrimination is keeping blacks from getting ahead doesn't change, however the gap between parties explodes, because Democrats shifted radically in the other direction. While over the same period, Republicans seem to increasingly believe changes need to be made to give blacks equal rights. Of course knowing Republicans the changes they think will impower blacks are something really dumb like tax cuts and deregulation, but still interesting. Perhaps you have some data though that suggests a different trend?
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Aug 21, 2018 03:07
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Squalid posted:I've been rather careful not to state any sort of specific political strategy so I'm not sure what exactly you think my plan is, and don't really have any interest in discussing it in this thread.
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Aug 21, 2018 03:54
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The length of time a view is held does not make it more or less radical, which seems to be a concept you have trouble grasping. It sounds, suspiciously, as if you're trying to lay quite a lot of poo poo on the Dems for finally saying 'enough'. It is a hosed up person who genuinely believes that moral authority operates on a rule of firsties and the party who's second off the starting line has to be perfectly accommodating lest they open a rift between themselves and the completely loving crazy people. And while you give a good speech about, um, forgiveness after civil war, you completely loving fail to grasp the point that a civil war has two sides fighting. It's amazing how close you come to the point when you say, specifically, say negotiation happens because the alternative is more fighting. And that's precisely it. The Republicans have no reason to stop until we fight back. Period. They're not going to look on the completely one-sided suffering this judicial fuckery has put on the people they hate and shed a tear of remorse. As for your claim that they aren't some kind 'exceptionally alien, paranoid, violent, disingenuous and radical group' - over half of them support putting children in cages. There's no escaping that. They are actively engaging in dehumanization to the point where human rights abuses performed on children no longer shocks them. They are gearing up for a genocide and you're talking about how we should ready our hearts to forgive them and take them in as neighbors, without a word for actually loving putting up a fight.
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Aug 21, 2018 04:45
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https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/carl-bernstein-trump-preparing-to-call-midterm-elections-illegitimate-if-democrats-take-power nov. 6
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Oct 22, 2018 04:41
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Squalid posted:
Counterpoint: literal desert camps filled with forcefully orphaned children. But they're brown though, it's no wonder you completely forgot about them. quote:
The way the Republican base is cheering for an active genocide that our country is presently perpetuating. But again, recognizing this fact requires you to recognize that brown people are human beings....
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Oct 22, 2018 11:06
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Prester Jane posted:Counterpoint: literal desert camps filled with forcefully orphaned children. But they're brown though, it's no wonder you completely forgot about them. In general, people that other people don't personally identify with are not considered people by those other people.
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Oct 22, 2018 11:37
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Prester Jane posted:Counterpoint: literal desert camps filled with forcefully orphaned children. But they're brown though, it's no wonder you completely forgot about them. I dunno, after hearing internet people scream about the future genocide FEMA camps being built by the past two presidents, I'm kind of burnt out. It's not that Bush and Obama's ordered air strikes didn't *also* create a bunch of orphans, but they were in those other countries Still, there are plenty of reasons to doubt that a systematic murder of brown people is being orchestrated (within our borders) beyond "being racist and supporting immigrant camps" For instance, a lot of conservatives genuinely perceive that the kids are staying at humane facilities comparable to summer camp, and that legally immigrating is a matter of spending a day filling out paperwork. They are painfully wrong, but the diagnoses is more of a matter of being in an information bubble rather than cheerleading the worst abuses that only liberals know about. But, there's obvious exceptions.
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Oct 22, 2018 16:40
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je1 healthcare posted:I dunno, after hearing internet people scream about the future genocide FEMA camps being built by the past two presidents, I'm kind of burnt out. It's not that Bush and Obama's ordered air strikes didn't *also* create a bunch of orphans, but they were in those other countries *Either those children are dead or they were forcefully taken from their parents and given to other people to be raised, either of those scenarios is literally the textbook definition of genocide. quote:
Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 17:07
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Though the contention that mass slaughter of people of the wrong race/nationality is quite normal for Americans is perfectly valid.
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Oct 22, 2018 17:12
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Robzho/status/1054069270689144832 https://mobile.twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1042569004169265152 Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 17:15
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The agency in charge of the children being forcefully ripped away from their parents is calmly referencing the importance of building a future for white children while reporting that they "lost" 3,000 children in a few months. And simpletons who have known only comfort in their lives want to find any reason they can to underplay the significance of what's happening in our country. We are genociding children in desert camps- built on our own soil. This is a thing that is happening right now.
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Oct 22, 2018 17:25
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Which is only slightly different from destabilizing foreign desert regions for fun and letting the free market do the killing. Or killing loads of ethnic minorities in desert prisons built on own soil etc etc.
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Oct 22, 2018 17:27
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OwlFancier posted:Which is only slightly different from destabilizing foreign desert regions for fun and letting the free market do the killing. What exactly is your point? Because I interpret your last two posts as attempting to imply that the genocide camps full of refugee children are not a significant escalation in the kind of atrocity that the American public will tolerate*. So before I react to that, please specify where you are going with this. *We are absolutely tolerating the existence of these camps rather than disrupt our social order over this issue. Edit: just saw your edit. why in the gently caress are you trying to play whataboutism games with an active genocide occurring publicly on our soil? Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 17:30
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Prester Jane posted:What exactly is your point? Because I interpret your last two posts as attempting to imply that the genocide camps full of refugee children are not a significant escalation in the atrocities that America in the kind of atrocity that the American public will tolerate*. So before I react to that, please specify where you are going with this. What you just said. It is not a significant escalation, it is a slightly more direct form of a thing that has been done for a long time in the US both domestically and internationally. The US is and has been built on incredible amounts of systemic violence and killing against everyone it can get away with doing it to, within itself and without. It is no less horrible but it is not new. It is not indicative of a radical shift in political thought, it's the natural evolution of the White, American supremacist thought which has been integral to US politics for longer than I've been alive and the roots of which likely extend back centuries in some way or other. Prester Jane posted:Edit: just saw your edit. why in the gently caress are you trying to play whataboutism games with an active genocide occurring publicly on our soil? Because treating it like it's a new atrocity is to misunderstand where it comes from. It is not a novel thing, it, or things very much like it, currently and for a very long time have enjoyed support from right across the US political spectrum, because the US political discourse is, and for a very long time has been, fundamentally supremacist as far as America is concerned internationally, and white, wealthy Americans domestically. This is not a problem you can solve by getting rid of trump or the republicans. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 17:32
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The American public cheering an active genocide on our soil is actually quite new and a significant escalation.
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Oct 22, 2018 17:35
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Prester Jane posted:The American public cheering an active genocide on our soil is actually quite new and a significant escalation. No it isn't? The American public across the political spectrum has long cheered things like mass incarceration in lethal prisons and interventionist wars. What massive unfathomble leap do you think it is to move from that to just killing people slightly geographically closer and slightly more directly? What strange thing do you think separates being perfectly OK with Americans going abroad to kill foreigners and Americans killing foreigners in America? Or America locking up Americans and not giving a poo poo how many die, to Americans locking up foreigners and not giving a poo poo how many die? If you're going to suggest that people consciously support the current practices (and I agree with you) then you must equally suggest that people consciously supported their preceding atrocities which are really not very different in character. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 17:40
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OwlFancier posted:
Open genocide of in children in desert camps on our own soil is a significant escalation. People should be ready to riot or at the very least go on a mass general strike over this, and the fact that comfortable people like you are playing whataboutism games with this is such a damning indictment of our culture that I don't even know where to begin.
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Oct 22, 2018 17:43
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Prester Jane posted:Open genocide of in children in desert camps on our own soil is a significant escalation. People should be ready to riot or at the very least go on a mass general strike over this, and the fact that comfortable people like you are playing whataboutism games with this is such a damning indictment of our culture that I don't even know where to begin. No it isn't. That's why people aren't willing to riot about it. Why do you think it has such easy and tacit acceptance from so many? Precisely because it is not new. It slots right into the realm of political acceptability because it builds on top of practices which have been going on for decades. You're trying to equate morality with observation and I know full well you're capable of doing better than that. If you're observing the situation and realizing that people are not moved by an atrocity, why do you think that is? Does it not suggest that they are already very comfortable with atrocity? That it has been normalized for them already? How do you think that happened? More importantly, from understanding that, do you think it can be undone with one push? You get rid of trump and the republican majority and it does not abnormalize this practice, it takes you at best, one step back in the other direction, if that. But you remain on the precipice, the idea and its roots remain just as acceptable. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 17:48
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OwlFancier posted:No it isn't? The American public across the political spectrum has long cheered things like mass incarceration in lethal prisons and interventionist wars. What massive unfathomble leap do you think it is to move from that to just killing people slightly geographically closer and slightly more directly? And before you continue this line of attack let me clarify something for you here. I was raised in a facility where I was literally physically tortured and subjected to extensive periods of sensory deprivation, and all of this was completely legal and protected by religious freedom laws. I am an activist who has worked to expose the hundreds of residential "schools" in this country that are nothing but child abuse factories, sometimes run by convicted pedophiles. I am very familiar with right-wing radicalization in this country- in point of fact I spent years trying to warn this forum about the threat it posed. And I'm the one saying that an active child genocide on our own soil is a significant escalation, one whose implications should be taken very seriously by any rational person. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 17:48
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Prester Jane posted:Well for one thing all the people being locked up are defenseless children. That kind of sets it apart a little bit, don't you think? No? The victims of atrocity very rarely have any defence against it, it's how they become victims. Very few people killed by the American military or the American justice system had any defence against it, they were simply the easiest targets. Now of course you can concoct some pretty lie about how they're acceptable casualties in the fight to protect the country but you can tell those same lies about the children being killed, doesn't make them any more truthful as you correctly pointed out. They're lies constructed by people who don't want to engage with the truth or who understand it but simply want to deflect criticism of it. Then as now you will find people saying that it is, of course, terrible what happens but it still has to be done, that it would be worse if it wasn't done. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now but the excuse is old and well worn and effective. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 17:56
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Prester Jane posted:The American public cheering an active genocide on our soil is actually quite new and a significant escalation. It's hard to remember exactly what this necroed thread was about but Prester Jane, I think you are confusing several different but related questions. Question 1) Has the American public generally or the Republican Party specifically become more "right-wing" however right-wing is defined, in the recent past? Question 2) Has the American government recently adopted more right-wing policies than it has in the recent past? Question 3) Is the Republican Party leadership becoming more tactically radical regardless of whether their goals and opinions have changed, increasingly rejecting political norms and customs? For question 1 I think the answer is no for the general public, and on most questions no for the Republican party. For example you seem to be suggesting here the the American public is in fact more radically anti-immigrant that it was in the past, and I don't think this claim is supported by evidence. From Pew again: http://www.people-press.org/2018/06/28/shifting-public-views-on-legal-immigration-into-the-u-s/   They don't have a graphic regarding how opinions regarding illegal immigrants have changed over time broken down by partisan affiliation, but they say it hasn't changed much since 2014 quote:Most feel sympathy toward unauthorized immigrants in the U.S.Nearly seven-in-ten (69%) are very or somewhat sympathetic toward immigrants who are in the United States illegally. That view has changed little since 2014, when a surge of unaccompanied children from Central America attempted to enter the U.S. at the border. An overwhelming share of Democrats (86%) say they are sympathetic toward immigrants who are in the U.S. illegally, compared with about half of Republicans (48%) . Question 2 on the other hand is obviously true, with the government becoming more extreme since the end of the Obama administration. I think this change is however driven more by the objectives and tactics of Republican elite, rather than popular opinion. If in certain respects the Trump administration is more extreme than Bush I think this represents more Trumps personal preferences and the preferences of existing but previously marginalized interest groups rather than a radical shift in public feeling. Question 3 is also probably true, as demonstrated by the judicial crisis. Probably going forward the democrats will exhibit similar tactical radicalization, which I assume will please you Prester Jane.
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Oct 22, 2018 18:02
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Prester Jane posted:Well for one thing all the people being locked up are defenseless children. That kind of sets it apart a little bit, don't you think? Locking them up would be a mercy compared to what south and central american death squads were taught to do at the School of the Americas, helping create the conditions these children are fleeing. We gently caress up their nations, and then gently caress with the survivors when they try to get out. Merely locking them in a quasilegal concrete chamber with no comfort but a mylar sheet is about median, by US standards. It's not good, but its not spectacular or unprecedented either. The USA is a devil nation. e; this is not to say you're out of line being pissed off about it, or that anyone should take it lying down, or that better things aren't possible. Quite the opposite, and I suspect we agree 100% where it counts on this issue. But if you're asking about precedent.... Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 18:05
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The situation, I am suggesting, is far worse than you are portraying. This sort of thing is not new, it is not unstable, it is not a sudden uprising of thought to be quelled and the world put right. It is the current point of evolution of trends in politics which have been decades if not longer in the making, it follows on from practices which have their roots in actions and ideas from across the US political spectrum, and it will not be the ruin of the country, nor will it be undone overnight. I am suggesting, essentially, that this kind of thing is entirely sustainable and will not end in mass political violence (other than to the degree that the state does mass political violence as a matter of course) and will, in fact, probably keep happening for a long time to come. This does not mean you should stop pushing in the opposite direction, but it does mean that you need to dig your heels in for a much longer push than simply ending this percieved sudden surge of neo fascism. It means that the answer isn't going to be found in simply getting the other party in, because the other party is lukewarm on the idea of actually stopping even the ICE poo poo, nevermind its precursor programs. Because this is a trend, not a sudden change, and even if you manage to reverse it, there is a very long way to go before you are safe from repeating it.
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Oct 22, 2018 18:13
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Mentally time travel back to early 2015 and please spend some time trying to convince your 2015 selves that an active genocide of refugee children on American soil would not be a significant escalation in right-wing extremism. I think your 2015 seoves would find that our present situation is very obviously an escalation. I mean in early 2015 people on this forum were mocking me and calling me a loon for arguing that the fringe right could take control of the Republican Party. Like... The idea that the GOP establishment could ever truly lose control of their base was extremely unpopular at the time. And now just look at where we are. I refuse to participate in normalizing these camps or anything that even vaguely smacks of normalizing these camps. Prester Jane fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 18:13
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OwlFancier posted:The situation, I am suggesting, is far worse than you are portraying. This sort of thing is not new, it is not unstable, it is not a sudden uprising of thought to be quelled and the world put right. I literally wrote an entire thread about this specific subject, and spent several years of writing that thread having posters enphatically disagree with me that anything of the sort could ever actually come to pass. Where are you even getting this weird idea that I think that the situation can be resolved with one big dramatic push or by getting rid of people like Trump? A very frequent theme of my post is the idea that resolving this situation will require a large-scale social transformation. But that transformation has to start somewhere, some singular event where people draw a line in the sand an organized around I'm doing a specific evil, before moving on to the next Target. The real tragedy of our situation is if a publicly admitted child genocide on our own soil isn't enough to get any significant number of people to draw that line, then in all probability it will never happen. And that means our society has no real resistance against fascism or authoritarianism.
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Oct 22, 2018 18:18
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They are normal, that's the point. You have very clearly observed that they are normal because you have seen what is happening and you have seen that people are doing very little about it. If you're going to construct a coherent political theory from this you can't persist in this bizzare paradox where this is simultanously an unheard of atrocity that has no precedent but at the same time people are not actually very bothered by it.
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Oct 22, 2018 18:18
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Prester Jane posted:Mentally time travel back to early 2015 and please spend some time trying to convince your 2015 selves that an active genocide of refugee children on American soil would not be a significant escalation in right-wing extremism. I think your 2015 seoves would find that our present situation is very obviously an escalation. I'm not sure I understand you Prester. Are you disputing something that I've said?
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Oct 22, 2018 18:18
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We were already locking up the kids in numbers even higher than present and putting them in front of english-only kangaroo courts in 2015, which I would have gladly told you in 2015. We just kept 'em in eyeshot of the parents for the most part and that made it okay according to prevailing sensibilities. At least its getting discussed now, in the mainstream. You're just more aware of it now because Trump is inept and Obama at least showed up to work on time in regards to papering over the behavior of the US's various three letter agencies. Very little is changing on the ground except for ICE taking the hammer to a few businesses that thought they were in the clear to do business. You're looking at the wrong guy to excuse the D&D zeitgeist but that does sound like a very quintessentially gently caress-dumb thing for D&D to say in 2015 so... that's frustrating. I dunno, this sub is aggravating, and was far worse when saying Clinton was garbage was a probatable offense.
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Oct 22, 2018 18:19
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The idea that the republicans have "lost control" of their party and base or that their current policies are in any way fringe also relies on the assumption that they are exceptional and unprecedented. If you accept that they are simply the progression of decades of preceding policy then the republicans have neither lost control of anything nor have they adopted fringe policies, what has changed is merely that the president is no longer a very good politician so he occasionally says the quiet part loud. If you want an example of this then you could probably quite easily observe the establishment democratic response to trump, which is to vary the nature of their hawkish tendencies, faff about with healthcare a little bit while not changing the underlying system, and not actually get rid of ICE but maybe try to make it sound a bit less unpleasant somehow. The present republican policy is very much in keeping with their prior policy and the democrats do not have to try very hard to position themselves proximal to it, all of which suggests that their polciies do not represent a significant divergence from the political norms. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 22, 2018 18:32
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