In Consider Phlebas, Bora was stupid to try and slip out of his cuffs

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > In Consider Phlebas, Bora was stupid to try and slip out of his cuffs

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Razakai: Sep 15, 2007; People are afraid
To merge on the freeway
Disappear here

Meatfucker Did Nothing Wrong

# ? Jul 22, 2018 16:29

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# ? May 16, 2024 14:17

TURTLE SLUT: Dec 12, 2005

I don't get why everone's all hating on Hydrogen Sonata. It's definitely more of just a fun space adventure instead of a thought-provoking look at the concept of utopia, but it's a very well written space adventure.

Lots of interesting world building about Subliming, good action setpieces, likable protagonists, dude with 30 dicks, what's not to like. And it has a lot of Mind shenanigans like in Excession.

Also re: people hating on Matter, I also found it disappointing on a first read but liked it a lot on a re-read. When you know the end is coming it works with the themes of the book.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 17:45

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Razakai posted:

Meatfucker Did Nothing Wrong

# ? Jul 22, 2018 17:49

Bold Robot: Jan 6, 2009; Be brave.

JOHN SKELETON posted:

I don't get why everone's all hating on Hydrogen Sonata. It's definitely more of just a fun space adventure instead of a thought-provoking look at the concept of utopia, but it's a very well written space adventure.

Lots of interesting world building about Subliming, good action setpieces, likable protagonists, dude with 30 dicks, what's not to like. And it has a lot of Mind shenanigans like in Excession.

Also re: people hating on Matter, I also found it disappointing on a first read but liked it a lot on a re-read. When you know the end is coming it works with the themes of the book.

It�s Banks so the worldbuilding and setpieces are really good but the plot was a wet fart. At the start we learn that the guys are going to sublime, a bunch of stuff happens in the middle that doesn�t amount to much, and then at the end they sublime just as planned. The secret they discovered about the race that was going to sublime was not very interesting, my immediate reaction was �who cares� and then nobody in fact really cared about it. The b-plot with the races that would take over the sublimed guys� stuff never really went anywhere.

:shrug:

It wasn�t like awful but it was much less interesting to me than his other books.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 18:01

doverhog: May 31, 2013; Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦

I know I've read Hydrongen Sonata at least once but remember nothing about it, except it was about a big party or something?

# ? Jul 22, 2018 18:06

Prav: Oct 29, 2011

doverhog posted:

I know I've read Hydrongen Sonata at least once but remember nothing about it, except it was about a big party or something?

it's the one where the not-culture militarists are gonna sublime, and then blow up a sublimed mentor civ ship for ~mysterious~ reasons followed by 600 pages of a band nerd being boring while explosions happen around her

# ? Jul 22, 2018 18:42

Waffle House: Oct 27, 2004; You follow the path
fitting into an infinite pattern.

Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild.

Now, in the quantum moment
before the closure
when all become one.

One moment left.
One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are Destiny.

RFC2324 posted:

it's the white man's burden

RFC2324 posted:

i mean that is literally one of the major things used to justify colonialism

are you some kind of reverse social justice warrior or what

# ? Jul 22, 2018 18:53

RFC2324: Jun 7, 2012; http 418

Waffle House posted:

are you some kind of reverse social justice warrior or what

What? I just pointed out the obvious parallel there. Does it really make you that mad that The Culture is not actually a perfect society, and does some pretty hosed up poo poo?

# ? Jul 22, 2018 18:58

Colonel Cancer: Sep 26, 2015; Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon

The idea about messing with less advanced civilizations, for humanitarian purposes, has been explored by scifi since at least the 50s if not earlier.

It's not as simple as just landing your loving spaceship and killing an evil king.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 19:03

RFC2324: Jun 7, 2012; http 418

Colonel Cancer posted:

The idea about messing with less advanced civilizations, for humanitarian purposes, has been explored by scifi since at least the 50s if not earlier.

It's not as simple as just landing your loving spaceship and killing an evil king.

and the quandary of if its moral to step in and fix what you see as wrong with the indigenous culture vs letting them continue on without interference is the major point of exploration. The Culture tends to meddle wholesale, because they feel that those lesser civilizations just need a good dose of what is best for them. that is the very definition of the white mans burden, and is something that our current society is struggling with the after effects of.

its definitely worth exploring

# ? Jul 22, 2018 19:12

Colonel Cancer: Sep 26, 2015; Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon

Not saying it isn't, but agressively meddling with other civilizations because of their politics doesn't really work out IRL and probably wouldn't in the gay space robot future, unless you are willing to turn it into some kind of a brain-washing dystopia.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 19:45

naem: May 29, 2011

He explores the "does this or does this not work, are we good or not" as like, the major theme in every single one of these books. It's like the major conflict on which every plot centers.

He doesn't create a perfect space society sorry if that disappoints everyone

# ? Jul 22, 2018 19:48

doverhog: May 31, 2013; Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦

Colonel Cancer posted:

Not saying it isn't, but agressively meddling with other civilizations because of their politics doesn't really work out IRL and probably wouldn't in the gay space robot future, unless you are willing to turn it into some kind of a brain-washing dystopia.

How do you feel about giving Africa developmental aid?

# ? Jul 22, 2018 19:49

Colonel Cancer: Sep 26, 2015; Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon

doverhog posted:

How do you feel about giving Africa developmental aid?

Ineffective bandaid placating continuing shameless resource exploitation by the west?

# ? Jul 22, 2018 19:58

RFC2324: Jun 7, 2012; http 418

doverhog posted:

How do you feel about giving Africa developmental aid?

Are we imposing our culture on them to give them aid?

# ? Jul 22, 2018 20:01

Waffle House: Oct 27, 2004; You follow the path
fitting into an infinite pattern.

Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild.

Now, in the quantum moment
before the closure
when all become one.

One moment left.
One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are Destiny.

RFC2324 posted:

What? I just pointed out the obvious parallel there. Does it really make you that mad that The Culture is not actually a perfect society, and does some pretty hosed up poo poo?

I wish I had that picture of the dude cumming over a 40k space marine while the dotted line of, �the joke� goes soaring over his head

# ? Jul 22, 2018 20:01

doverhog: May 31, 2013; Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦

Ok, now are you proposing we stop the aid? You don't have to answer, the point is, it's a complicated question, and Banks does not actually say in his books that the Culture is right. The authoritarial voice is asking a question, not telling the reader what the ultimate truth is.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 20:02

RFC2324: Jun 7, 2012; http 418

doverhog posted:

Ok, now are you proposing we stop the aid? You don't have to answer, the point is, it's a complicated question, and Banks does not actually say in his books that the Culture is right. The authoritarial voice is asking a question, not telling the reader what the ultimate truth is.

As far as the aid, we need to be very careful how we provide it. Look what happens when we impose democracy on a developing nation. It almost never works because the people don't really know what to look for in a leader and end up electing a dictator. But when a nation finds it on their own, it usually holds because part of developing a democracy is learning what to look for where you cast your vote.

then, apparently forgetting that lesson and voting for trump/brexit/other fash poo poo

as far as the books, that exploration is one of the things that make them enjoyable. its a utopia, but its a flawed utopia

# ? Jul 22, 2018 20:14

Waffle House: Oct 27, 2004; You follow the path
fitting into an infinite pattern.

Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild.

Now, in the quantum moment
before the closure
when all become one.

One moment left.
One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are Destiny.

RFC2324 posted:

As far as the aid, we need to be very careful how we provide it. Look what happens when we impose democracy on a developing nation. It almost never works because the people don't really know what to look for in a leader and end up electing a dictator. But when a nation finds it on their own, it usually holds because part of developing a democracy is learning what to look for where you cast your vote.

then, apparently forgetting that lesson and voting for trump/brexit/other fash poo poo

as far as the books, that exploration is one of the things that make them enjoyable. its a utopia, but its a flawed utopia

Your brain seems completely eaten by post-2016 meme politics and I don�t think you�d enjoy these books very much

# ? Jul 22, 2018 20:36

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

The problem fundamentally is that European colonialists weren't very much like the Culture at all and white man's burden was always some bullshit to sell the idea of enslavement to the masses while extracting resources and profits.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 21:22

Waffle House: Oct 27, 2004; You follow the path
fitting into an infinite pattern.

Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild.

Now, in the quantum moment
before the closure
when all become one.

One moment left.
One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are Destiny.

Annalee Newitz
6/10/13 2:03pm

https://io9.gizmodo.com/11-rules-of-good-writing-that-iain-m-banks-left-as-his-512191076

quote:

Over the weekend, author Iain M. Banks died of cancer � just two months after announcing that he had less than a year to live. He left behind some of the greatest works of science fiction ever written. Here are eleven Banksian rules of good SF writing, that we would do well to remember long into the future.

1. There are no good guys

In Iain M. Banks' science fiction series about the Culture, there are no heroes who aren't tarnished by morally ambiguous deeds. Even the good-intentioned people of Special Circumstances, whose goal is to export social democracy everywhere, are basically assassins. Perhaps the least morally-compromised characters in his books are the whimsical-but-deadly gas giant creatures from The Algebraist, and the artificially intelligent Minds whose schemes for humanity are explored in depth in Excession, Surface Detail, and The Hydrogen Sonata. But the Minds are good only out of cheerful indifference, or perhaps disinterested engagement. They can never quite agree on whether they should prevent humans from slaughtering each other or just ignore it. Having heroes whose intentions are mixed, rather than motivated by pure good, makes them more realistic as people. It also reminds the reader that one person's "good" is another person's "end of the world."

2. Utopia is not perfect

This is a corollary to rule 1. "The Culture is my idea of utopia. It's pure wish fulfilment. This society is driven by the urge to do good � not, like capitalism, by the urge to exploit," Banks told the Independent in 2008. Banks' work allows us to think meaningfully about the future of humanity precisely because he never loses sight of what makes us human: conflict and compromise. Though the Culture is a Utopia, it is also full of people who play games to the death, genocidal maniacs, slavers, and Minds whose main enjoyment is derived from high-speed destruction. It is the struggle to maintain a democratic, egalitarian civilization that makes the Culture believable. Utopia is not a stable state. It is a precarious, ever-changing world full of problems that may never be completely resolved.

3. Never give your protagonist a simple motivation

Banks will never give you a protagonist who is destined for greatness. His Special Circumstances agents aren't just putting their lives on the line to save the world. His SC agent in Matter has a personal grudge to deal with, and the undercover agent in Inversions has fallen in love with the man from a non-Culture civilization whom she is studying. But by the same token, a vengeful former slave in Surface Detail goes beyond personal revenge in her quest to destroy her master. These are people who change and grow as a result of experiences in the universe. Nobody is born to lead, nor are they doomed to evil. When you encounter a character, you understand that they've reached their destinations by making a series of choices, under circumstances that are not always of their own choosing.

4. History will gently caress you up

This is perhaps the overarching message of the entire Culture series, which is an unusual theme for a series that is so relentlessly futuristic. But both Minds and biological creatures in nearly every Culture novel are haunted by wars and personal conflicts that echo across centuries and star systems. A war we witness unfolding in the first Culture novel, Consider Phlebas, echoes like galactic-scale PTSD in Look to Windward. The history of all the dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. We cannot charge forward into a post-human future and expect to leave our brutal histories behind.

5. Political values can transform the fabric of time

In Transition, Banks imagines a Special Circumstances-like group who travel through alternate timelines rather than through space. Their goal is to make other timelines safer for democracy, and they jump between worlds murdering potential dictators or aiding freedom fighters. Of course a conflict develops over whether they are murdering the right people � and indeed, whether it's a good idea to kill people from another timestream even if it's for the cause of justice. Unlike your typical "kill Hitler" fantasy, a staple of the time travel genre, Transition is about how a long political game can mutate the very notion of time itself. To change the world for the better, we have to change our relationship to time. This gets back to rule 4, as well.

6. A planet is a terrible waste of matter

One of Banks' greatest strengths as a science fiction writer was his ability to make you imagine vast machines and habitats in space. From the nesting-doll worlds and liquid-filled tube space station for aquatic creatures in Matter, to the many Orbitals (halo worlds) and megapolis-sized Ships of his other novels, he always tries to challenge our assumptions about what it will mean to build a civilization in outer space. Planets, Banks once asserted, are not a good use of matter. Any truly advanced group would see that, and instantly convert a planet into something with more surface area that is both safer and better able to support life. What you build is also a reflection of your social values. The solar-system-sized war machines (the nested worlds) of a now-lost galactic civilization become home to warring kingdoms in Matter. Minds who grow sick of war install themselves in Orbitals instead of war ships. What we build is a reflection of our aspirations as a civilization � and when these buildings endure for millennia, we are also shaping civilizations to come. Did I mention that history will gently caress you up?

7. Your intentions are only as good as your weapons

Given that the Culture (and Banks himself) are interested in using peaceful rationality to stamp out war and oppression, it might surprise you to find that most of the Culture books are full of killers. The more peaceful your civilization is, the better defended it has to be. That's why there are Ships who can kill in nanoseconds, and SC agents with Drone friends who can kill with a force field. Don't even get me started on the knife missiles and that scene where a spy manufactures poison in his saliva so that he can kill a bad guy by biting him. Peace is complicated. So you'd better carry a big stick. Preferably one whose brain has the computational power of an entire planet made of processors.

8. Immortality and hard AI don't cause the apocalypse, but they don't really solve our problems either.

The premise of a lot of present-day thinking about the future is that hard AI like the Minds will completely transform humanity � partly by making us immortal, and partly by giving us post-human superpowers via high-tech implants. In Banks' Culture, the Minds work with humans and other intelligent species. They are, in a sense, just another intelligent species. But instead of inhabiting bodies, they inhabit architecture, infrastructure, and space vessels. Humans can live virtually forever (though most choose not to), as well as alter their bodies and back up their minds. Still, as rule 1 and 3 make clear, living beings still have a lot of species baggage. There is no "Singularity" � instead, there is gradual transformation and the usual messiness.

9. Astropolitics, not space opera

Banks is one of the innovators of a subgenre I call astropolitical. Instead of Golden Age star-hopping adventures, ala space opera, the Culture novels are complicated tales of solar system regimes and galactic empires. The Dune series could be considered an early example of astropolitical science fiction. But Banks takes it a step further, chucking out fantasy ideas like destiny and embracing realistic political struggle as a storytelling method. Just because we've reached the stars doesn't mean we've left the horrors of imperialism and nationalism behind. Banks combines savvy political conflict with fantastical worlds to suggest where our contemporary systems of social control might lead in thousands of years.

10. The consequences of your adventurous episode will alter somebody else's entire world

One of the things that is basically never dealt with in Star Trek, another arguably astropolitical narrative, is what happens after the Enterprise leaves. But this is often the subject of Banks' work, where Culture types swoop into "backward" civilizations, muck about, and then leave everybody behind to try to work things out. Often badly. Many of his main characters come from worlds at the edges of the Culture. They offer us a dark, outsider's view of this "Utopia" whose efforts to spread democracy sometimes look more like straight-up imperial conquest. In this way, Banks develops his astropolitical leanings further. These books are not about heroes who shoot a bunch of people and get medals. We linger in the aftermath of the adventure, and we sift through the ruins of the triumphant battle. We find out what happens to the people "liberated" by conquest.

11. There is a definition for evil, after all.

There may not be any form of good that is unambiguous, but Banks is clear on one thing. Genocide, torture, and enslavement are always immoral, no matter how "special" the circumstances. Banks never lets us forget that the galaxy is full of authoritarians who think torture is an awesome way to rule over people � and who believe that some groups deserve to be completely erased from time and space. Those authoritarians should be killed. There is no happy rehab. We won't make them see the error of their ways. We will loving assassinate them so fast that they won't even realize that a Terror Class Ship entered and left their local volume of space. Seriously. Kill those bastards. Banks wasn't afraid to moralize on behalf of great justice. Some things are not ambiguous.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 21:26

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

quote:

Those authoritarians should be killed. There is no happy rehab. We won't make them see the error of their ways. We will loving assassinate them so fast that they won't even realize that a Terror Class Ship entered and left their local volume of space. Seriously. Kill those bastards. Banks wasn't afraid to moralize on behalf of great justice. Some things are not ambiguous.

Goddamn right

# ? Jul 22, 2018 22:22

Zoe: Jan 19, 2007; Hair Elf

i heard this guy got so mad at Israel once he refused to let anymore of his books be translated for them

that'll show 'em.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 22:45

spog: Aug 7, 2004; It's your own bloody fault.

Waffle House posted:

Annalee Newitz
6/10/13 2:03pm

https://io9.gizmodo.com/11-rules-of-good-writing-that-iain-m-banks-left-as-his-512191076

I feel she's read the books but failed to understand almost all of the messages, morals and statements that the author made. Impressively so.

# ? Jul 22, 2018 22:50

Waffle House: Oct 27, 2004; You follow the path
fitting into an infinite pattern.

Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild.

Now, in the quantum moment
before the closure
when all become one.

One moment left.
One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are Destiny.

spog posted:

I feel she's read the books but failed to understand almost all of the messages, morals and statements that the author made. Impressively so.

You have piqued my curiosity. Books are as interpretable as there are people on earth; what do you take away from Iain Banks work?

# ? Jul 22, 2018 22:55

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

doverhog posted:

Ok, now are you proposing we stop the aid? You don't have to answer, the point is, it's a complicated question, and Banks does not actually say in his books that the Culture is right. The authoritarial voice is asking a question, not telling the reader what the ultimate truth is.

Yes, that's the core theme of every Culture book and characterising it as white man's burden is accurate if provocative lol

Moridin920 posted:

The problem fundamentally is that European colonialists weren't very much like the Culture at all and white man's burden was always some bullshit to sell the idea of enslavement to the masses while extracting resources and profits.

They're as beneficent as it's possible to be, while still presuming they know best. The Culture doesn't need physical resources and profits any more, so it's extracting the emotional resource/profit of knowing they are the good guys. Most of the time it works out really well for them and the cultures concerned, occasionally it doesn't and 4.5 billion people get killed (oops lol)

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jul 23, 2018

# ? Jul 23, 2018 00:20

Inexplicable Humblebrag: Sep 20, 2003

applewhite look what your thread did

# ? Jul 23, 2018 00:28

The Dennis System: Aug 4, 2014; Nothing in Jurassic World is natural, we have always filled gaps in the genome with the DNA of other animals. And if the genetic code was pure, many of them would look quite different. But you didn't ask for reality, you asked for more teeth.

Politically, Banks's stuff has always seemed like standard progressive or whatever fare with a little bit of moral ambiguity for spice thrown in. It doesn't seem super-complex about morality or politics. :shrug:

# ? Jul 23, 2018 00:37

bitmap: Aug 8, 2006

im really enjoying excession

# ? Jul 23, 2018 13:35

Pretty good: Apr 16, 2007

bitmap posted:

im really enjoying excession

It's good. Byr is good

# ? Jul 24, 2018 01:41

Applewhite: Aug 16, 2014; by vyelkin; Nap Ghost

Colonel Cancer posted:

The idea about messing with less advanced civilizations, for humanitarian purposes, has been explored by scifi since at least the 50s if not earlier.

It's not as simple as just landing your loving spaceship and killing an evil king.

The Orson Scott Card short story Kingsmeat would beg to disagree.

# ? Jul 24, 2018 02:00

Applewhite: Aug 16, 2014; by vyelkin; Nap Ghost

RE: The prime Directive

It's dumb and I favor the Culture's interventionist approach.

# ? Jul 24, 2018 02:05

spog: Aug 7, 2004; It's your own bloody fault.

Waffle House posted:

You have piqued my curiosity. Books are as interpretable as there are people on earth; what do you take away from Iain Banks work?

I could go through that article and point out the many factual mistakes and inocrrect conclusions, but I am afraid that it would look extremely :goonsay:

if I did.

# ? Jul 24, 2018 08:22

The Dennis System: Aug 4, 2014; Nothing in Jurassic World is natural, we have always filled gaps in the genome with the DNA of other animals. And if the genetic code was pure, many of them would look quite different. But you didn't ask for reality, you asked for more teeth.

spog posted:

I could go through that article and point out the many factual mistakes and inocrrect conclusions, but I am afraid that it would look extremely if I did.

I'd like to read that though. I wish you'd do it.

# ? Jul 24, 2018 09:37

TURTLE SLUT: Dec 12, 2005

The Dennis System posted:

Politically, Banks's stuff has always seemed like standard progressive or whatever fare with a little bit of moral ambiguity for spice thrown in. It doesn't seem super-complex about morality or politics.

I dunno, I think it poses a lot of questions and shows the complex ethics of interventionism. Feels more than just spice to me.

Like Diziet Sma is one of the good ones, a special agent trying to steer civilizations into democracy and social equality. But then there's also that scene where her drone gores the gently caress out of some primitives when all it had to do was to stop them, and Sma let's it off the hook "this time". It's ok to employ sociopaths that will go total overkill once in a while, since they're otherwise useful weapons?

Or, hell, Zakalwe leading a war on behalf of the Culture on the assumption that he'll be able to make it somehow a very nice and relaxed war.

There's definitely unambiguous evil, like pointed out by that quote from Newitz, but a lot of the time the actions of the protagonists are simply shown, and the morality is left for the reader to determine.

I feel like I'm coming across like a Banks fanboy since I keep defending the books, so here's some criticism: the overall structure of some books is a bit meandering, and there's not enough really likable protagonists for example in Excession (Byr can gently caress right off). I also thought Against a Dark Background was just a total mess.

# ? Jul 24, 2018 12:52

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

I always thought Banks was a liberal who was trying to simultaneously say that intervening in other countries works and that the post work utopia would be boring anyway but that's like, my opinion man

# ? Jul 24, 2018 15:29

Meme Emulator: Oct 4, 2000

Hello everyone since this is now the Scifi thread how does the Uplift Saga end? I started reading Brightness Reef but it looks sorta lovely and I dont think Im gonna get through this second trilogy. I just want to know where the drat Streaker is

# ? Jul 24, 2018 15:56

Torquemada: Oct 21, 2010; Drei GlÃ¤ser

JOHN SKELETON posted:

I also thought Against a Dark Background was just a total mess.

Same, it felt like he threw a bunch of stuff he couldn�t make fit into any of his other books and hoped for the best. All his books have problems to varying degrees, but I don�t love them because they�re perfect works of art, but because he always tried hard to express himself to the reader. I forgive his missteps because I like the way his mind worked.

# ? Jul 24, 2018 16:14

Waffle House: Oct 27, 2004; You follow the path
fitting into an infinite pattern.

Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild.

Now, in the quantum moment
before the closure
when all become one.

One moment left.
One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are Destiny.

last night I was able to pick a random sci fi book off the ol� shelf and remember that wow, words like, �negress�, no matter how apt a descriptor, have really fallen out of favor in this strange wild world of 2018 lmao

PS: It is my favorite book but I think AADB showcases Banks� tendency to be generously michael bay with plot

Waffle House fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Jul 24, 2018

# ? Jul 24, 2018 16:20

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 16, 2024 14:17

Waffle House: Oct 27, 2004; You follow the path
fitting into an infinite pattern.

Yours to manipulate, to destroy and rebuild.

Now, in the quantum moment
before the closure
when all become one.

One moment left.
One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are Destiny.

I suddenly wonder how many times I�ve read the female pubic triangle described as, �a patch/brace/shock of [$ProtagonessHaircolor] hair.�

I feel like the word, �alabaster� comes up a lot when describing lady skin tones in space, too.

# ? Jul 24, 2018 16:42

The Something Awful Forums > Main > General Bullshit > In Consider Phlebas, Bora was stupid to try and slip out of his cuffs

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