Acceptable Public Discourse in the Culture of Hollywood (James Gunn,etc.)

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Acceptable Public Discourse in the Culture of Hollywood (James Gunn,etc.)

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Thanks for making a thread for this, Hat Thoughts.

I've been seeing a lot of discussion around what should be considered in and off-limits for comedy, with a lot of people saying that Gunn/Harmon/et al are victims of their own fault by going outside of the normal boundaries of taste. I fundamentally disagree with that; I think that gallows humor is a vital necessity to the human experience. If we can't laugh at the worst poo poo in the world every now and then, the world would be an unbearable place to live in.

Anyway.

I was flipping through cable tonight and came across Deadpool on FX. I was struck by an exchange that takes place between Wade Wilson and his girlfriend Vanessa, when they first meet:

Deadpool, a major motion picture released in 2016 posted:

Wade Wilson: Rough childhood?

Vanessa Carlysle: Rougher than yours. Daddy left before I was born.

Wade Wilson: Daddy left before I was conceived.

Vanessa Carlysle: Ever had a cigarette put out on your skin?

Wade Wilson: Where else do you put one out?

Vanessa Carlysle: I was molested!

Wade Wilson: Me too. Uncle.

Vanessa Carlysle: Uncles. They took turns.

So that's straight-up an incest/rape joke in one of the most successful comic book movies released by a major studio in the past couple of years. To me, Gunn's remarks may have been less clever (waaaaaay less clever), but they fall within the same shock shtick. Context matters, and that I worry may be getting a little blurry on that concept. Like if you disagree with me and feel that Gunn and Harmon are a different case, I'm willing to hear your take, but to me that's a really fine line.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2018 03:01

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 10:07

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

NotJustANumber99 posted:

Versus a guy, whether playing a bit or not, on his own making solo public statements in which he jokes about being the molester. For me that is the context you're talking about, and yeah it does matter.

Fair point.

You raise an interesting question though, about how the Deadpool script went through a refinement process to fine-tune the joke. I think most of us would agree that Gunn�s twitter exploits were, generally speaking, pretty lazy. I wonder if the backlash would have been as severe if they were more... constructed, and less �weird kid yelling from the back of the classroom.� Like The Aristocrats is a tasteless joke told well, and that�s why it kind of found itself a solid corner in comedy to occupy.

And for what it�s worth, I agree with Basebf555: Gunn and Harmon absolutely knew what they were doing, and why they were doing it (to elicit a shock reaction). And I�m sure they will have no issue finding more work. My issues are with the circumstances in which the situation was instigated, and what the motives of the instigators behind it were.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2018 15:46

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

I do think that something that keeps getting lost in the conversation here is how horrible it is that this Twitter targeting campaign is the alt-right corrupting the accountability atmosphere that arose around the #metoo movement. Like (as far as we know) James Gunn or Michael Ian Black have not actually assaulted or harassed anyone in real life (Harmon is his own unique, different story). However, the only reason this has been as effective of a tactic as it has been is because we�re in a moment where bad behavior (specifically sexual assault and harassment) are no longer being blindly tolerated. But that very good and positive culture shift has been more or less weaponozed by the worst people imaginable here, for the most petty and self-serving reasons.

It... loving sucks. Like I know that is an obvious and perhaps weak statement on the fact, but it just does. It clouds the waters of this new era of sensitivity and awareness. And the fact that it is Cernovich, of all people, leading this trend is just.. galling and hideous.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2018 16:24

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

BexGu posted:

Harmon story isn't unique. He was in a position of power over a female subordinate and when she did not return his advances he set out to makes her life as horrible as possible. The only difference is that he got ahead of the story and apologized for his behavior in front of a live audience.

I didn�t mean his actions were necessarily unique, but in how things unfolded. He apologized, the victim forgave him. Some say that�s good enough, others think he should still be viewed as a harasser. I wanted to mention him, as he is part of the larger point I was trying to make, but didn�t want to run the risk of derailing said point.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2018 16:42

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Disney certainly shares some culpability in a terrible precedent being set. I don�t see Cernovich and his Flying Dildo Brigade going after Harmon or Black or whoever if the Mouse has just responded with a stern �shut up, idiots.�

But to hope for Disney to err on the side of social good and just morality is a waste of a wish.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2018 18:10

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

MacheteZombie posted:

Creep 3 lookin good

# ¿ Jul 24, 2018 20:20

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

It was completely unilateral! That's the whole point, it's not about accountability, it's about power and who wields it.

Can you expand on this, so I can better understand your viewpoint? I think we might be on a similar page, separated by semantics, but I don�t want to jump to any conclusions.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2018 21:03

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

21 Muns posted:

Acknowledging them at all is probably too nice.

Any and all interaction with them should be limited to shining a flashlight at them to scare them away from the trash bins.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2018 19:11

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

In a working culture that tends to be full of carefully constructed statements produced by committee, I respect the hell out of Big Dave for being so direct and open about his dissatisfaction with how the Gunn firing went down. Of course that kind of outspokenness has been the kind of thing that would easily get talent blacklisted for �being difficult� in the past, but hopefully the visibility on this is too great and he�s still able to push his career forward without any artificial hurdles being placed in his way. Good on him for exercising his voice.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2018 17:13

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Let Big Dave direct GOTG3.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2018 23:09

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

I think comparing what happened to Gunn to old school blacklisting is a little disingenuous. The blacklisting was a malicious, pervasive movement that was supported directly and implicitly through the Hollywood system, backed by actual government authority figures.

Disney got played for rubes by a bunch of dildos who yelled fire in a packed theater. The act hasn�t really been replicated to the extent of Gunn, with people like Dan Harmon being backed by their bosses, and guys like Michael Ian Black and Patton Oswald responding with a dismissive shrug. If Disney hadn�t emergency ejected themselves into a brick ceiling, there wouldn�t even be a semblance of threat here.

The alt-right are gross weirdos, but far from the well-oiled and oppressive machine that allowed Hollywood blacklisting to thrive for so long.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2018 17:14

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Ramen Pride! posted:

In my opinion Disney still has a way to fix this.

If they rehired Gunn, and released a statement distancing themselves from the offensive jokes... and then sic that legendary team of Disney lawyers on Cernovich and Infowars and sue their asses off for libel and slander and character defamation and loss of profits in the billions.

Since Cernovich outright lied about Gunn being an actual sexual predator, and there are so many people standing up for him, and it's obvious to all except the most rabid nazis that Gunn is innocent of any actual crimes, I'd bet they have a solid winnable court case, which would mostly clear the air of this franchise destroying PR disaster in the only possible way that keeps Mickey's gloves clean and white.

Alas, nooooo the latest rumor is that Disney's scrapping Gunn's script and doubling down on their decision. What idiots.

The problem is that there�s no real incentive for Disney to fix anything. It�s not like people are going to stop seeing Marvel movies. And the company had a deep enough roster (especially with the acquisition of X-Men and Fantastic Four) to sub in something in place of GOTG going forward.

I would imagine Disney sees admitting to a mistake to be more damaging than adjusting the course of the MCU at this point.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2018 20:16

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

davidspackage posted:

Tragically hilarious that the ultimate Gorilla Mind alpha lives off his ex-wife's dollar, cuckily.

It is honestly utterly unsurprising. All of those jackholes are just case studies in massive amounts of projection.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2018 14:07

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

chitoryu12 posted:

Bautista will probably actually try to kill Cernovich if he ever sees him in person.

It would be like that scene in Pulp Fiction where Butch and Marcellus Wallace see each other at the crosswalk, except Big Dave just powerbombs the car.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2018 15:25

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

ruddiger posted:

James Gunn should kickstart the Troma Superhero Cinematic Universe. Toxic Avenger and the Toxic Crusaders, Sgt. Kabukiman and Dolphin Boy, and The Raven from The Chosen One with Carmen Elektra vs the Surf Nazis and the mutant punks from Nuke 'em High.

There has been rumors of a rebooted Toxic Avenger floating around forever. Gunn should be the only name on that list. Period. Because I legit believe dude could thread the needle of bringing Troma sensibilities to a modern, wide audience.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2018 18:22

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Samuel Clemens posted:

Making Troma's work palatable to a wide audience sort of defeats the purpose of Troma.

I agree, but it feels like an inevitability of happening at this point. If it does, Gunn would be the only guy I�d trust with it. And not because of GOTG, but because of the mean-spiritedness of Slither and Super.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2018 01:12

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

teacup posted:

I�m fairly sure Chris Pratt being a little God-y is the least important part of this story. It certainly hasn�t affected him in the films in question.

Eh. It�s certainly part of it. He�s been using his religion as a smoke screen with a lot of the James Gunn stuff. His response to the story breaking was to post a bible verse on twitter. He signed that letter with the rest of the GOTG cast, but even Bautista called him out on having to �pray� before issuing even that commitment. Pratt is arguably the highest profile member of the cast, and he�s also been notably reserved in firmly stating a position on all of this, which sucks. Like sure, he�s protecting his career, but it�s a career he wouldn�t have if it wasn�t for Gunn. Remember, before GOTG, Pratt was just a goofy sidekick on a sitcom. Without GOTG there is no Jurassic World, Passengers, or Magnificent Seven. All that poo poo is a result of Gunn proving he�s a leading man. There�s something disappointing in watching the dude play politics under the guise of his faith with all of this.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2018 14:11

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

peer posted:

what i'm hearing is gotg was a mistake

Hey, we got two new Vincent D�Onofrio performances out of those, one with a silly voice. Worth it. :colbert:

# ¿ Aug 15, 2018 14:18

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

King Vidiot posted:

Yeah great, cool story.

Me, I just hope that this leads to him going back to making personal projects so we can get a movie as good as Super again. Mostly because I like James Gunn when he's not making GotG because I could not give less of a poo poo about Marvel.

In a way, creatively, I feel like all of this will be good for Gunn. Super and Slither were both products of a man with a chip on his shoulder, and that anger really helped the movie�s fully realize themselves.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2018 15:13

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Ghost Leviathan posted:

It was better in the trailer when the HUD blurred it out and indicated 'incoming obscene gesture'.

I thought the �oh I�m sorry, I didn�t know how this machine worked� worked better that way too, because it implied that he didn�t realize the scanner would flag an obscene gesture (or did, and did it anyway).

# ¿ Aug 16, 2018 19:00

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

It would be fascinating to see the alternate universe where Glenn Howerton got the Starlord gig instead of Pratt. Like obviously it would still be a Marvel Machine flick, but Howerton definitely skews closer in tone and range and performance style of stuff like Super and Slither.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2018 19:30

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

I would be proud to have been fired by the Disney company.

Harlan Ellison seemed happy enough with it.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2018 17:24

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

NotJustANumber99 posted:

But aren't those guys at the start like space police, isn't starlord killing those guys just dealing with fascist ACAB? When he's dealing with real people he doesn't kill them, like the guy whose leg he bargained/pleaded for politely?

Actually, if he�s referring to the opening scene of GOTG, Star-Lord goes up against Ronan�s dudes. They�re basically violent extremists.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2018 17:29

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

banned from Starbucks posted:

Are there any change.org petitions that aren't dumb entertainment type bullshit?

Hahaha, no.

_no

# ¿ Sep 8, 2018 19:59

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Sucrose posted:

In other shocking news, Fark.com is apparently still around. _{(I say on the something awful forums)}

This blew my mind and made me track down other trash comedy sites from my high school years and holy poo poo, apparently loving Ernies House Of Whoopass is still around in some form?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2018 22:02

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

BOTL and I don't agree on much, but they're not wrong in this case. Disney isn't going to learn poo poo from all of this, and hoping that you can send a message to them by not seeing their movies puts way more faith in the power of your singular dollar than the millions of others who will still see the movies they release irregardless of whatever political noise surrounds it. You want to see a difference out there, vote, canvas, volunteer. Don't look to a multibillion dollar entertainment company to act as a moral barometer.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2018 18:06

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

I definitely think that Gunn was instrumental in shaping the tone of GOTG (and it does have a unique tone insomuch how it compares to the rest of the MCU), but I think a pretty solid blueprint has been established throughout the two movies and the Guardians' appearance in Infinity War, that anybody with a checklist and marching orders could probably produce something similar enough to Gunn's work that your average moviegoing audience wouldn't notice any changes happened behind the scenes.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 16:30

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

How, precisely?

The overall usage of color, and how licensed music is utilized throughout both films is pretty different than anything you'd see in the MCU, to the point that Rubberband Man is used as an identifying cue for the Guardians' appearance in Infinity War. You can rip on the writing and the characters all day, but I think it would be a hard sell to say that the GOTG installments don't at least look and sound different in a way that a bog-standard Captain American movie doesn't feel or look particularly different from an Iron Man installment. Ragnarok got a piece of that pie, but it came well after a standard had been set with the first two GOTG movies.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 16:49

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Shoot To Thrill wasn't a plot point in Iron Man 2.

Or was it???

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 16:55

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

CelticPredator posted:

The dancing scenes are the only good scenes in Spider-Man 3.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zqKWAc_wt60

????

# ¿ Sep 12, 2018 00:34

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

CelticPredator posted:

They're doing reshoots for Infinity War right now, and it'd be pretty easy to wipe off the Guardians.

I can see them keeping Pratt. He�s come off as quite the company man, with all his inane �take time to pray� talk. Groot and Rocket are super marketable, but they�re also CGI characters who could easily have their voice actors replaced. Everybody else? Yeah I could see them curbing them all.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2018 01:06

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Super came out four years before GOTG. It features a scene where Ellen Page explicitly rapes Rainn Wilson, and is later graphically shot in the head.

If you think that Disney, a company that probably has a whole team devoted to picking out what straws they use at their theme parks on aesthetic merits alone, didn't vet that poo poo, you're out of your mind.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2018 06:02

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

tbh i think both you and chitoryu are actually touching on a really good point that extends way past just the guardians movies

WWII, as an event, imprinted really loving hard on our collective psyche. these "status quo or total annihilation" plots, which you frankly see pretty often in the action genre, are essentially echoes of the American narrative of WWII, even if they're much lighter in subject matter and importance, because at some point someone realized that poo poo just hits people right in the lizard brain.

I would argue that GOTG is a pretty light romp until Ronan gets to Xandar with the stone. The threat is way more vague until the narrative suddenly decides to turn into planet-specific mass genocide.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2018 06:32

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Okay nerd bird, play it out. I'm not disagreeing with you but explain your thoughts.

okay, you edited for clarification.

you dildo.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2018 06:35

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 10:07

Tart Kitty: Dec 17, 2016; Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Not everyone you disagree with is a Nazi.

lol lamps jumped the shark.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2018 02:00

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Acceptable Public Discourse in the Culture of Hollywood (James Gunn,etc.)