The Banner Saga 3 is out. It doesn't seem to be doing so well on Steam -- getting good reviews but it feels like no one even noticed it came out. So, I'm just going to borrow from my previous thread on the sequel and make a few edits here and there.quote:For those of you that don't know, The Banner Saga (created by developer Stoic) is a series of turn-based tactics games with a dash of Oregon Trail, all based in a Nordic fantasy world that's undergoing some kind of apocalypse. It's grim, sad and with a very heavy dose of classic mythology. You have to fight monsters, bandits and intrigue amongst your own caravan - and that's not even getting into the problems such as ensuring you have enough food and morale to keep your caravan at peak efficiency. It's a game where the most moral choices are factored into the fact that you're going to run into serious problems. And these choices are tracked, with a lot of them following into TBS2 and TBS3. All in all, TBS3 is an ending to the series. It still has the slightly awkward combat and, all in all, the combat in TBS3 is weaker than TBS2 (the new enemy faction just aren't much fun to fight). Going back and looking at my TBS2 thread, TBS3 definitely doesn't repeat the sense of improvement that TBS2 had. At its heart, TBS3 feels like an awkward mix of an apocalyptic third part in a CYOA series and a turn-based combat game. While TBS3 has a few new touches, they're hardly gamechangers. It's a good ending, all in all. I was satisfied with how my Rook's story ended up -- which seemed like a tall order at the midpoint where some bad things went down. A brief glance around the net seems to indicate that there's a fair amount of reactivity, so, that's neat. Really, everything from the first two games is there: the wonderful art, haunting music, and fun cast. But at the same time, TBS3 feels a bit rushed, like it's hurrying to get to the end and the combat is just an awkward interruption from the actually interesting stuff. While the story is fine, the writing feels rougher and it feels a little like the writers were checking boxes on their way to the end. What struck me is that my first playthrough was about two hours shorter than the previous two games, and it shows. The pacing feels a touch off: the combat feels like everything stops, and the new wave mechanic doesn't help, and it makes the game feel slow. But without the 'combat breaks', the plot just thunders forward. While I don't think TBS3 is a bad ending (It's certainly no Mass Effect 3) I think, overall, this saga is one that, for whatever reason, never quite reached the heights it seemed to aim for. If the saga is a runner, they're not faceplanting at the finish line... but, perhaps, give off the feeling that they're welcome for the ending. This goes hand in hand that this is the first Banner Saga game where I ran into bugs, including crashes during loading screens. So, I think while the third game is out, this might also be a thread to have to talk about the series in retrospect.
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Jul 28, 2018 15:15
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I've just started it, maybe two hours in. You can really break the combat and the iniative system is still a slog, having to leave enemies with 1 or 2 strength left. The whole series has been a strange experience. The gameplay isn't good but the atmosphere, setting, and art always suck me in. There's nothing else like it.
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Jul 28, 2018 16:35
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Although I really enjoyed the first one - the only one I've played - I cannot believe how short it is for the price. It's a really memorable short but £15 or more for a game that lasts 6 hours just absolutely doesn't feel worth it at all. Are the second and third as short?
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Jul 28, 2018 17:00
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Six hours sounds crazy short. Are you sure? The first two were about 11-12hrs for me.
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Jul 28, 2018 17:18
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adamarama posted:Six hours sounds crazy short. Are you sure? The first two were about 11-12hrs for me. Absolutely sure. In fact if you look at most of the reviews the general sort of level is 8 hours. I did play on Easy so I didn't have to spend as much time resting, but that's mostly because the actual world and story is the fun part for me rather than the fighting.
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Jul 28, 2018 17:28
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Ugh it’s been long enough that I’m going to have to relearn the weird combat system, I guess.
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Jul 28, 2018 21:44
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Just wrapped it up, after a few early restarts to remember how this all plays, in 8 hours. Everything does feel a little rushed, especially at the very end, but I enjoyed it.
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Jul 28, 2018 21:52
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This game crashes like Launchpad Mcquack but I beat it, curious about anyone else's experience and how reactive things are? Big spoilers for how my play through went. I got in with the king because I kept Ludins rear end alive and gently caress that Rugga dude, but Rugga apparently poisoned the king at some point and he died without me being able to do anything about it. I remember the last game cliffhanger ending with Horseborn about to sack or occupy the city but that actually never happened so hmmm. Rook died trying to peacefully let the dredge into the city but got killed by a random rear end rowdy and the whole city went into a riot. Team Iver all died at the white tower becuase that poo poo stain Eyvind wanted to cut a deal with the Big old Snake so I gave him the axe but Alfrun wasn't good enough to do the job and keep us from dying at the same time. Rook met back up with his family in the afterlife so that was alright. The Clan back in Arberrang managed not to die even though that timer got mighty loving close. Bolverk was the end boss and somehow controlling the warped? What was up with that?
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Jul 29, 2018 00:27
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Something about the battle system in this series really speaks to me. Maybe it's just because it's so different from the normal tactics fare, so it's genuine new and interesting to master. I got a similar feeling out of Into The Breach, come to think of it, which is also very different to a normal tactics game. Chapter 21 was amazingly tense, with the day counter now ticking down until Arberrang falls. And each time it runs out you get another chance to extend their timer a couple of days, but they're falling further back into the city each time, and you never quite know if this time they're done for at last. I ended up at the white tower with less than one day remaining; apparently there would have been at least one more scene at Arberrang if I'd run that out, but I didn't know that and it felt like such a relief to get there in time. It does, unfortunately, mean you can miss out on story content for playing too well, which is kind of a flaw, but easier to work around than the other way round.
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Jul 29, 2018 00:36
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adamarama posted:Six hours sounds crazy short. Are you sure? The first two were about 11-12hrs for me. No, that'd be about right. I came in at nine hours but that was with leaving it open and alt-tabbed for an hour or so (and doing all the wave combats bar one). Tenebrais posted:Chapter 21 was amazingly tense, with the day counter now ticking down until Arberrang falls. And each time it runs out you get another chance to extend their timer a couple of days, but they're falling further back into the city each time, and you never quite know if this time they're done for at last. I ended up at the white tower with less than one day remaining; apparently there would have been at least one more scene at Arberrang if I'd run that out, but I didn't know that and it felt like such a relief to get there in time. Yeah, Chapter 21 is really good like that. I'm a big fan of that sequence. It does, however, mean if you play too well you miss out on a lot. Caidin posted:This game crashes like Launchpad Mcquack but I beat it, curious about anyone else's experience and how reactive things are? Big spoilers for how my play through went. I was similar but... Kept Ludin alive, beat Rugga up in prison, last thing we saw of him was prior to Rook wanting peace with the Dredge. Rook died, city went into a riot. Eyvind tried to cut a deal with the Serpent but Iver managed to talk him down (just barely). So, Juno ended up in the Black Sun and most people survived. Rook met up with his family in the afterlife. Game ended with Oddlief and the others looking out over the devastated world -- seriously, will they even survive long? Just look at it -- and Iver's caravan returning home in the distance. Also, the art in the end credits appears to serve as an epilogue to many of the characters. For example, Odd had a daughter who she trained as an archer. Ubin and Canary went off journeying together. The twins reunited, etc. With Bolverk... Didn't the Serpent resurrect him at the end of TBS2? I think it also depends on how the fight against him went in TBS2 -- Bellower can be following along with him. He's commanding the Warped but still serving the Serpent.
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Jul 29, 2018 02:25
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Oh. I forgot to finish the second game.
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Jul 29, 2018 02:39
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Thordain posted:Just wrapped it up, after a few early restarts to remember how this all plays, in 8 hours. Everything does feel a little rushed, especially at the very end, but I enjoyed it. Man. £15 for an 8 hour game just seems absolutely mad to me. I hope their next thing is a full on RPG in their world with a decent chunk of playtime. Or else that they release 1-3 together as a single thing for maybe £22-25? That seems decent.
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Jul 29, 2018 16:20
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I really liked this game, but I need to play through as a complete fuckup A-Z to make it maybe more tense. I did a re-run through the series in prep for this and man I kinda agree that this one is probably the weakest game, although I liked the reactivity. If I had to rank the games it would go BS2 is the best by a decent margin in my opinion. They expanded combat mechanics a bunch over BS1 and they did a really good job breaking out the story to follow whoever the Hero of Skogr was. Plus Bolverk and the Ravens had a much different tone, which imo was good. I haven't done BS3 as Alette yet, not sure how different it would be, but BS2 did feel different on those two playthroughs, even if mechanically things were pretty similar. This game does however sell its the end of the world the best imo. Your cramped up in Abberang, and you really get the sense hope is pretty much gone and the twists sort of made sense. I do want to do my maximum "gently caress everything up Run and be a huge rear end in a top hat and side with assholes" run that I did in Mass Effect that ended up way more fun than being a good dude. The only downside as mentioned was I was in really good shape from the earlier games and never really lost any heroes. I think only one died in the Ravens caravan Bak? the Spear dude I never used him so it wasn't heart wrenching, I don't even know how he kicked the bucket actually. and everyone on Rooks end lived. I literally reached the white tower literally a tick after the first "Return to Aberrang" interlude which might be forced. I has something like 1200ish clansmen, 350ish Varl and 600ish fighters and a week or so of supplies, rebuilt the walls and a few other smart moves. So if people had caravans that were way more beat up, I think the game would be a bit longer actually. Things that were really good about the game + Artwork, it all looked really cool across the board. + Background Lore, they actually start explaining poo poo and it makes sense and doesn't feel forced. Especially regarding the Dredge, Valka/Menders, Gods and why the Sun Stopped etc. The Darkness and the Giant Serpent are pretty much peeled back to be Stravh's gently caress you to the Loom Mother and Creation as a doomsday weapon to end the creation in petty revenge. + Reactivity, you have some choices made throughout the series even a couple minor ones for both the two main plots Wait for Juno at Sigrholm, Save Witch tied to a tree, Save Dredge Baby and a few others that slip my mind atm that will convince Eynvid not to make a deal with the serpent, but even up to that final decision I honestly wasn't sure what he would ultimately do. + Get some cool character moments Ludin for instance grows a lot from the first game to now and the same goes for other characters even some tertiary onesEkkil showing remorse and wondering what Rook/Alette thinks of him, or people just breaking down at how everything went so wrong. + They do a good job dropping hints about what a good outcome and bad outcome might be Rook thinking about Alette as he goes to the gate, new witch lady pointing out why should you really trust Juno/Eynvid to do the right thing, or is there anything left of Bolverk + The chaos at the end of the game makes sense and they address some things quite well. Why don't they just leave on boats? (Serpent's blood turned the water around Aberang to acid) Things bad or at least not great - The Warped aren't that fun to fight. - The Game is simply too short. - Some things just "happen" for the sake of them happening a couple of times. - New mechanics introduced for reinforcement waves are alright... but unless you are pretty good at BS combat (I.e. like five people) you won't get much use out of it. Overall a good game, I think though as games they are a little lackluster. Apparently the main writer wrote a book set in Strand before all this started. I think honestly redoing this universe as like PnP RPG setting or a series of books/comics would honestly play more to Stoic's strength than game design.
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Jul 29, 2018 19:54
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Jack2142 posted:- New mechanics introduced for reinforcement waves are alright... but unless you are pretty good at BS combat (I.e. like five people) you won't get much use out of it. I thought the new wave mechanics were excellent. In previous games you occasionally get the chance to take on a new wave for extra renown but it'd always be with a party that was already half broken down from the first fight, while this time around you can sub in fresh fighters, and you get a Will boost on everyone. It encourages you to go for it much better. Also, the fact that the new wave will come anyway after a certain number of turns works well to counter the previous optimal strategy of leaving all of your enemies on a sliver of health to pad out their initiative queue. Now taking those extra turns to chip them down then later kill them means you're likely to get jumped by a new wave without that chance to prepare.
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Jul 29, 2018 23:09
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Tenebrais posted:I thought the new wave mechanics were excellent. In previous games you occasionally get the chance to take on a new wave for extra renown but it'd always be with a party that was already half broken down from the first fight, while this time around you can sub in fresh fighters, and you get a Will boost on everyone. It encourages you to go for it much better. I guess that is fair, I had trouble doing it as I was playing on hard and Warped are tough bastards even when subbing people in and out, so I never really risked the reinforcement waves after the first time with it. I was drowning in items already so that was a bit less appealing. If I was playing on normal I think the wave mechanic would be more manageable and I would have done it more.
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Jul 30, 2018 00:16
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Jack2142 posted:Overall a good game, I think though as games they are a little lackluster. Apparently the main writer wrote a book set in Strand before all this started. I think honestly redoing this universe as like PnP RPG setting or a series of books/comics would honestly play more to Stoic's strength than game design. Yeah. I said in the TBS2 thread that this series might've worked better as interactive fiction or something like that. I think it's true. The draw is the story, characters, choices and consequence. The gameplay is otherwise just kind of there. At the same time, I think I'd really enjoy novels that told this story, too. Taear posted:Man. £15 for an 8 hour game just seems absolutely mad to me. It's more expensive than the previous two, as well. I think Stoic said that TBS2 was basically a financial failure at some point (which is why they had to go back to Kickstarter to get the third made), so, maybe that explains the price increase? A single Banner Saga game would be great, too. I don't think there's any reason why you couldn't do that and basically plug it all together as DLC. It's a bit strange how it's three different games despite the fact they are very similar.
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Jul 30, 2018 00:27
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Yeah. I said in the TBS2 thread that this series might've worked better as interactive fiction or something like that. I think it's true. The draw is the story, characters, choices and consequence. The gameplay is otherwise just kind of there. At the same time, I think I'd really enjoy novels that told this story, too. Yeah I just bought the Amazon book and will read it maybe sometime in the next week or two. https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Hadrborg-James-Fadeley-ebook/dp/B01E7XODSU
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Jul 30, 2018 01:25
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The combat gameplay is an important factor in the consequences, mind. It makes the characters meaningful, and risking someone's life can mean risking your best fighters - and suffering the consequences of potentially losing future battles. Maybe I'm strange for really liking the tactics gameplay, though. From the Kickstarter stretch goals, Survival mode will be making a return, and they'll be adding some sort of Eternal Arena, whatever that will be. Looking forward to both.
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Jul 31, 2018 11:29
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Tenebrais posted:The combat gameplay is an important factor in the consequences, mind. It makes the characters meaningful, and risking someone's life can mean risking your best fighters - and suffering the consequences of potentially losing future battles. That's true, yeah. And it does mean you make decisions differently. For example, I kept Canary and her horseborn around because she'd become a murder machine.
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Jul 31, 2018 12:16
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For those who believe that 3 was overly short: There is basically a Russian indie somewhat clone of Banner Saga called "Ash of Gods: redemption". It should scratch the same itch most of the time, combat difficulty has some wild swings because the AI is kind of hard to predict. Personally, I kind of want a mix of Fire emblem, Banner Saga and Battle brothers, if anyone knows a game which fits this description please say something about it 
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Aug 1, 2018 13:42
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The series as a whole is cool and I think the combat earned its place. The main issue for me is that the wave mechanic seems like a way for you to get you to use your benchwarmers, but the benchwarmers themselves exist because of the chance you might lose people. The devs acknowledged back after BS1 that having you so easily lose people in BS1 was an issue after you'd invested a bunch of renown into them. So you have a bunch of people that you don't really get to know in any sense or feel an attachment to besides the main folks. Each party member that's not part of the 'core story' gets like one or two camp scenes and that's it. It's kinda lacking compared to, say, Fire Emblem and the Support Conversations that make up a large part of that game now. There'd be a real benefit to a smaller, more intimate cast. Like, why am I carrying around this Dytch guy? When was the last time I actually used Sigbjorn at all or cared about him? Who seriously cares about Griss at all?
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Aug 1, 2018 16:09
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Jack2142 posted:Yeah I just bought the Amazon book and will read it maybe sometime in the next week or two. https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Hadrborg-James-Fadeley-ebook/dp/B01E7XODSU What does the book cover? I haven't picked up TBS3 just because I grew too tired of the combat system in TBS2, and as much as I want the story resolution it just isn't worth the price/time for me to go through the game.
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Aug 1, 2018 20:55
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bewilderment posted:The series as a whole is cool and I think the combat earned its place. The main issue for me is that the wave mechanic seems like a way for you to get you to use your benchwarmers, but the benchwarmers themselves exist because of the chance you might lose people. Griss actually was part of my A team jerk. Having 15 armor + 15 attack and then 4 armor break is actually really good. Sigbjorn I think was thrown in to replace Gunnulf since so many people lost him apparently in the second chapter with the cart. Dytch gets a weirdly large amount of screen time in BS3, but probably because I think he is one of the Ravens you cannot lose before the game unlike Bak, Oli, Mogun, Krumr, Ekkil, Sigbjorn Also Always take on Onef because Ekkil is a goddamn epic murdermachine, sorry Egil you are a nice guy... but dat Guts skill Tenebrais posted:The combat gameplay is an important factor in the consequences, mind. It makes the characters meaningful, and risking someone's life can mean risking your best fighters - and suffering the consequences of potentially losing future battles. I kinda agree, I do like it because at its core you aren't relying on RNG for everything, only hail mary under strength attacks really have that element. That way you can avoid X-Com 99% chance to hit miss bullshit that drives people crazy. nessin posted:What does the book cover? I haven't picked up TBS3 just because I grew too tired of the combat system in TBS2, and as much as I want the story resolution it just isn't worth the price/time for me to go through the game. I haven't read it yet I am reading the Powder Mage books, but I think it is Eirik (The guy who can get a pet Warbear and the first human hero in the game) in Strand either a couple years or months before the events of the first game. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 2, 2018 |
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Aug 2, 2018 03:45
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OK, I beat the game. This would seriously have gone up, like, a solid point out of 10 if during the credits it gave a little epilogue to each of the characters (as long as you didn't get the "everything's hosed" ending). Aside from the Rook/Alette romances or lack thereof you could even have a single one for each character.
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Aug 2, 2018 14:24
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bewilderment posted:OK, I beat the game. It's rough that Rugga is this big presence at the start of the game, practically the antagonist for one group, and then he's just... gone entirely unless you go back to the capital the final time. It definitely needed something to wrap some of the characters up.
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Aug 2, 2018 15:00
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I liked this game a lot but the second caravan definitely needed some more work. Also I can't believe they didn't go all in on the ending on a trilogy, but I guess that's pretty much the measured hand of Stoic. I think it was a recent interview that said Stoic has now grown to two offices and finally has something resembling project management so I'm not gonna bleed my heart over their mishandling of the series. Hope they learned from their mistakes and put out some other cool games soon.
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Aug 2, 2018 16:36
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I read an interview before the game came out, where they mentioned that they were focused on how important it is to stick the ending. And how hard it is to account for all the various choices and variations that have accumulated over three games. I think they were giving it a lot of focus, though I'm not sure they did it as well as they wanted to.
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Aug 2, 2018 19:52
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Hmm, I dunno. The more I read about how people's games played end, the more I realize there's a lot of permutations on how Arberrang can play out especially if you take too long with the other caravan. There's probably genuinely a lot of work in the reactivity and I guess that may have detracted from the overall plot in a way. But I can't say that I've heard anyone complain about a lack of a reactivity so I guess they probably did a good job there at least on the surface. An ending slideshow of conclusions is probably all they really needed to do but I have to imagine they decided not to do it for reasons. It's too obvious a mechanism to just say "they forgot to do one" heh.
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Aug 2, 2018 22:19
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If the choice was time spent writing ending slides, or time spent making two battles back to back where I need to use Dytch, or talk or interact with him at all, I know what I would've gone with.
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Aug 3, 2018 00:20
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Just finished it. A worthy ending to the series, I thought it truly excellent! If you enjoyed the others, or just the first one and are thinking about it, I would recommend it, but make sure to play the second one before.
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Aug 3, 2018 00:57
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Jack2142 posted:I literally reached the white tower literally a tick after the first "Return to Aberrang" interlude which might be forced. I has something like 1200ish clansmen, 350ish Varl and 600ish fighters and a week or so of supplies, rebuilt the walls and a few other smart moves. So if people had caravans that were way more beat up, I think the game would be a bit longer actually.
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Aug 3, 2018 01:01
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Diogines posted:I think there are some shenanigans here because at one point my timer went from like... 12 to 2 all at once, despite not much time passing when I played the other caravan. I think it is scripted to arbitrarily change it at some point to make tension before the "funeral" event? That's not how it works. Iver's Caravan has no clansmen or varl or fighters or supplies or food or anything and doesn't have to worry about it - they barely even have opportunities to hit the Rest button. They spend Renown exclusively on people. The Arberrang Caravan works as it did before, up to 'Arberrang is Broken'. Once you hit that, all your supplies and clansmen and whatnot get added up. That forms the timer for Iver. The first time you do it, you'll get from 10 to 30 days depending on how well you played the entire rest of the trilogy. This day timer ticks down instead of up. Whenever the timer hits 0, you go back to Arberrang to try and claw back some more days. You're unlikely to get more than, like, 2-4 depending on the choices you make and the fights you do. The Funeral event happens on the first return to Arberrang, so at that point you have no further supplies anyway. I think it takes 21 days from 'Arberrang is Broken' for Iver to reach his destination, if you take the fastest option every single time.
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Aug 4, 2018 01:37
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I think it was 31 for me and I never stopped to rest. At the same time, I swear something like Diogines noticed did happen in order to make sure I saw the funeral. But other people have said that it's possible to never return to the capital.
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Aug 4, 2018 02:51
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I found that I had my first return to Arberrang right after crossing the frozen lake, which is on a zoomed-in view so it doesn't show the normal caravan UI (like at godstones and such in the past games). At the time I assumed it was scripted, since when I last saw the day counter it was still at 6 or so, but I think what actually happened is time continued to pass on the lake without showing me. That might be a cause for confusion. I've been replaying the series and a similar thing happens on the bridge to Einartoft in TBS1 - you get a zoomed-in view of the bridge with no caravan display but three days have passed once you arrive.
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Aug 4, 2018 16:03
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Pardon the double post, but Survival Mode is out for TBS3! Everyone starts at level 8 and you get to choose their second ability when a choice is available. Alette is still a goddamn monster, even without a knockback item.
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Sep 27, 2018 00:26
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Also a collected version is now out for the Switch, at a more reasonable price.
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Sep 27, 2018 00:34
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Oooh, thanks for bumping the thread. I keep thinking about doing a bit of a retrospective on the trilogy and now I have one less excuse to not do it. I think Steamspy said that, like, less than 20,000 people own this game on Steam.
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Sep 27, 2018 01:58
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I hope they fix the war losses bug in part 2 soon. It’s stopped me from playing.
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Sep 27, 2018 03:44
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I enjoyed it as a conclusion to the series, though I'd say TBS2 was the high point for me, definitely had many of the stronger moments and the best battles. Though I only returned to Arberrang once during the final chapter, so I missed out on a lot of gameplay and story, which is real risk if you're importing a save. I did like some of the new characters we had available, like Alfrund and the Dredge dudes. I do think the final chapter's mechanic is pretty great at driving tension, even if it sort of punishes you for playing well. The credits felt pretty strong as an epilogue, though it's arguable if it is really intended to serve that purpose. I had what was probably one of the best endings, with Eyvind agreeing to imprison Juno and everyone in Iver's caravan surviving, other than Krumr, who died to stop Bellower (as I lost that fight in the second game). Alette survived, as I had the Dredge Baby with me; though looking at Youtube the ending where Alette meets her father in the afterlife feels a fair bit stronger. My only regret is not killing Rugga when he was in jail.
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Sep 27, 2018 11:54
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How do y'all handle getting additional heroes in Survival? I haven't played too much but my inclination is to not recruit a 7th character until somebody died, but I'm expecting that to bite me sooner or later.Tenebrais posted:Alette is still a goddamn monster, even without a knockback item. No joke. Kivi's pretty cool too, and I'm glad I get to play with him in Survival even without preordering. Though I guess all the dredge characters are fun to play with.
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Oct 3, 2018 07:54
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